Italian writer against women choosing the bear: hating men has become fashionable

[Magic Man]

I wouldn't have such a problem with this if it weren't so one sided. Even though there are just as many women who behave badly, but it seems when women behave badly, society is less likely to vilify her (compared to bad men) and more likely to make excuses for her behavior. I remember when Obama was President, he gave a speech during fathers day. He spent most of the speech talking about how he didn't have a father around when he grew up and encouraging men to "step up" and raise your kids. Can you imagine a politician giving a mothers day speech focusing on bad women and telling mothers to step up?

There's just one teeny tiny problem with your grand theory here: the problem IS one-sided. Women don't behave badly toward men the same way or at the same rate as men do to women. It's a problem with men specifically, not people in general. (Note just for you: this doesn't mean women don't behave perfectly, just that it's not nearly the same as men.)

Why would anyone tell mothers to step up? They're still expected to be the ones to step up all the time. Fathers are still not given the same expectations as mothers, because there's still the old mindset of "that's women's work/the mother's job". There's still the pervasive idea that guys taking care of their kids are "babysitting". Because of how widespread male bad behavior is, women still have to do most of the taking care of kids.

 

[Magic Man]

I found it offensive because it implied women fear men more than they do dangerous wild animals, when their behavior indicates they do not.

Now, just go ahead and show us the evidence of their behavior "indicating they do not".

It seems to go back to the ole feminist rallying cry that all men are potential rapists.

That's not a feminist rallying cry. Technically, all mean are potential rapists. But the actual point is that men in general have a tendency to treat women poorly and feel free to harass them or worse.

As I pointed out before; can you imagine if someone used such a thought experiment on race where black people were perceived as dangerous? It would never be tolerated.

Probably because it wouldn't make sense. The problem here is that you're doing everything you can to try to make your agenda-driven point, rather than actually listening to what's being said. The fact is women are much more wary of men than most men realize, and it's due to bad behavior by men toward women and the constant crap women have to put up with. That's what this thought experiment shows. You can accept that and allow it to affect your worldview, or you can continue to stomp your foot and try to make irrelevant points.

 

[Kfox]

There's just one teeny tiny problem with your grand theory here: the problem IS one-sided. Women don't behave badly toward men the same way or at the same rate as men do to women.

Yes they do! They may not behave badly the same way, but they definitely behave badly at the same rate as men

It's a problem with men specifically, not people in general. (Note just for you: this doesn't mean women don't behave perfectly, just that it's not nearly the same as men.)

You are wrong, and it is people like you that are a part of the problem; you seem to think women are morally superior to men.

Why would anyone tell mothers to step up?

Because a lot of them need to

They're still expected to be the ones to step up all the time.

But many of them don’t do they.

Fathers are still not given the same expectations as mothers,

And mothers aren’t given the sam expectation as fathers

because there's still the old mindset of "that's women's work/the mother's job". There's still the pervasive idea that guys taking care of their kids are "babysitting". Because of how widespread male bad behavior is, women still have to do most of the taking care of kids.

The idea that men’s roles are different from women’s roles is not just from male behavior, but female behavior as well.

 

[Kfox]

Now, just go ahead and show us the evidence of their behavior "indicating they do not".

If a woman saw a Grizzly bear walking towards her in a park, she would run and hide. If she saw a man walking toward her in a park, she would not run and hide.

That's not a feminist rallying cry. Technically, all mean are potential rapists.

So are all women

But the actual point is that men in general have a tendency to treat women poorly and feel free to harass them or worse.

Untrue. If you disagree, show us the evidence supporting this claim.

Probably because it wouldn't make sense.

Wrong; it makes perfect sense. Per capita; black people commit a higher rate of violent crime when compared to white people. If a white person used this data to fear black people, that white person would be vilified a racist.

 

[crossfire]

No...it's just the toxic culture that wants to impose the narrative that all men are stalkers and murderers.

I mean...my best friend has always been dumped by men. She confessed me that she really wishes someone of her exes had stalked her.

It's not that. The only species on earth that kill more humans than other humans is mosquitoes. Bears don't even make it anywhere near the top 20.

List of deadliest animals to humans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Magic Man]

Yes they do! They may not behave badly the same way, but they definitely behave badly at the same rate as men

Nope.

You are wrong, and it is people like you that are a part of the problem; you seem to think women are morally superior to men.

Nope. It's people like you who are the problem. I don't think women are necessarily morally superior to men. I just recognize how men and women behave differently.

Because a lot of them need to

No, they don't.

But many of them don’t do they.

Define "many".

And mothers aren’t given the sam expectation as fathers

Correct. That's what I said. Mothers are already expected to do all of the parenting, and they're perceived as the ones who do it (mostly justifiably).

The idea that men’s roles are different from women’s roles is not just from male behavior, but female behavior as well.

The different roles for different genders goes back a long way. It's still around because we haven't broken free of it. But it existed and exists because of the patriarchy. It's all wrapped up in the "men being men" idea that male-dominated societies perpetuate.

 

[Magic Man]

If a woman saw a Grizzly bear walking towards her in a park, she would run and hide. If she saw a man walking toward her in a park, she would not run and hide.

And?

So are all women

Technically, yes.

Untrue. If you disagree, show us the evidence supporting this claim.

You're the one who said it's obvious that men behave badly toward women, that we don't need more evidence to prove it to people who don't already understand it. So, which is it? You accept that men behave badly toward women at a high rate, or you refuse to accept it?

Wrong; it makes perfect sense. Per capita; black people commit a higher rate of violent crime when compared to white people. If a white person used this data to fear black people, that white person would be vilified a racist.

Yes, that white person would be vilified as a racist, because that would be a racist idea. We're not talking about one group of people committing a violent crime at a higher rate than another. We're talking about a group of people who act a certain way toward women every day.

 

[Kfox]

Nope.

What do you base that on?

Nope. It's people like you who are the problem. I don't think women are necessarily morally superior to men. I just recognize how men and women behave differently.

So your first response you say women do not behave badly at the same rate as men, then the second response you claim women are not morally superior to men; see a contradiction here?

 

[Kfox]

And?

If women feared men as much as they fear bears, they would not live among men for the same reason they don’t live among wild bears.

You're the one who said it's obvious that men behave badly toward women, that we don't need more evidence to prove it to people who don't already understand it. So, which is it? You accept that men behave badly toward women at a high rate, or you refuse to accept it?

No; on post #462 you made that claim and I objected to that claim in post #464. So back it up!

Yes, that white person would be vilified as a racist, because that would be a racist idea. We're not talking about one group of people committing a violent crime at a higher rate than another. We're talking about a group of people who act a certain way toward women every day.

This entire thread is about men committing violence against women thus is feared more than wild bears! Try to Keep up.

 

[crossfire]

<...>
This entire thread is about men committing violence against women thus is feared more than wild bears! Try to Keep up.

Well, they do. Bears don't even crack the top 20 of species most dangerous to humans. Humans are #2 on the list, mosquitoes are #1. How afraid are women of mosquitoes, the deadliest species on earth to humans? That should give you a bit of perspective. Keep in mind dealing with the aftermath of being harmed by a human is a whole lot more stressful than dealing with the aftermath of being harmed by any other species.

List of deadliest animals to humans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Magic Man]

What do you base that on?

Reality.

So your first response you say women do not behave badly at the same rate as men, then the second response you claim women are not morally superior to men; see a contradiction here?

There is no contradiction. You're the one worried about "moral superiority". I'm just concerned with actual behavior.

 

[Magic Man]

If women feared men as much as they fear bears, they would not live among men for the same reason they don’t live among wild bears.

No. Bears aren't necessary to live among. Women aren't sexually attracted to bears (for the most part). Bears don't help procreation. Bears can't be productive members of society.

No; on post #462 you made that claim and I objected to that claim in post #464. So back it up!

Here's what you previously said:

Like that’s all we need is another example of the countless other examples of men behaving badly. Every time you turn on the TV, watch a movie, TV commercials, discussion groups like this, there are countless examples of men being violent, stupid, dumb, evil, cowards, every horrible thing you can think of; we are constantly getting examples of men behaving that way; ENOUGH ALREADY!!! If you give another example, I’m gonna refute it.

So, which is it? Do you already have plenty of examples as you said before, or do you need examples?

This entire thread is about men committing violence against women thus is feared more than wild bears! Try to Keep up.

Yes, this entire thread is about men committing violence (and non-violent harassment) against women and therefore engendering more fear/wariness than bears. I'm not sure what you think that has to do with a racist person fearing all Black people because of a statistic they read.

 

[Kfox]

Well, they do. Bears don't even crack the top 20 of species most dangerous to humans. Humans are #2 on the list, mosquitoes are #1. How afraid are women of mosquitoes, the deadliest species on earth to humans? That should give you a bit of perspective. Keep in mind dealing with the aftermath of being harmed by a human is a whole lot more stressful than dealing with the aftermath of being harmed by any other species.

List of deadliest animals to humans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Despite the title, that link is about which is responsible for more human deaths; not which is most dangerous to humans. To suggest a single mosquito is more dangerous to a human than a poisonous snake is absurd. to suggest a wild bear that we stay away from is less dangerous than another person whom we choose to live around is absurd.

 

[Kfox]

Reality.

IOW you have nothing but your subjective opinion? got it.

There is no contradiction. You're the one worried about "moral superiority". I'm just concerned with actual behavior

Moral superiority is about behavior; its the same thing.

No. Bears aren't necessary to live among. Women aren't sexually attracted to bears (for the most part). Bears don't help procreation. Bears can't be productive members of society.

That's because women fear bears as being more dangerous than men

So, which is it? Do you already have plenty of examples as you said before, or do you need examples?

Point to the part where I said; "men in general have a tendency to treat women poorly and feel free to harass them or worse." If you can't point to when I said this, then you need to back up this ridicules claim

Yes, this entire thread is about men committing violence (and non-violent harassment) against women and therefore engendering more fear/wariness than bears. I'm not sure what you think that has to do with a racist person fearing all Black people because of a statistic they read.

Not about a statistic they read, but due to the idea of black people committing violence against people and therefore engendering more fear/wariness than wild bears.

 

[Magic Man]

IOW you have nothing but your subjective opinion? got it.

I mean, I have reality to base it on. If you think women behave badly toward men in a similar way and at a similar rate, you're welcome to provide evidence for the claim.

Moral superiority is about behavior; its the same thing.

That's your own judgement. I'm pointing out behavior. Anything you want to attach to it is irrelevant.

That's because women fear bears as being more dangerous than men

Clearly that's not true, as evidenced by this very question we're talking about. It's also not at all a valid takeaway from what I said there. The point I was making there is that men are an integral part of a society. Women can't reproduce without them (generally speaking). Women are still attracted to them (generally speaking). Men have uses in society. Bears don't. You can live a perfectly normal life without ever interacting with a bear. It would be impossible for all women to avoid all contact with men, as things stand now. The fact that women interact with men and not bears in no way shows that they fear bears more. It shows men are still a necessary part of society.

Point to the part where I said; "men in general have a tendency to treat women poorly and feel free to harass them or worse." If you can't point to when I said this, then you need to back up this ridicules claim

I already did in the part you're replying to here. I'll quote you again:

Like that’s all we need is another example of the countless other examples of men behaving badly. Every time you turn on the TV, watch a movie, TV commercials, discussion groups like this, there are countless examples of men being violent, stupid, dumb, evil, cowards, every horrible thing you can think of; we are constantly getting examples of men behaving that way; ENOUGH ALREADY!!! If you give another example, I’m gonna refute it.

Not about a statistic they read, but due to the idea of black people committing violence against people and therefore engendering more fear/wariness than wild bears.

You're talking about a statistic, one that shows similar behavior, just slightly more pronounced in one group. You're trying to use a very different and irrelevant point to dismiss this very valid one. I'll lay it out more plainly for you:

Women, in their everyday lives, deal with a lot of bad behavior from men. That includes, unwanted advances, sexual harassment, sexual assault, rape, and other things. It happens constantly to pretty much all women. Women don't look at statistics and say "Oh, look, this group does this thing at a higher rate than this other group, so I'll be afraid of that first group". They have constant personal experiences of a phenomenon, and so their perspective reflects that. That's usually how humans work.

Your example is of a person who looks at a statistic and determines they should be fearful of a whole group based on something they haven't actually experienced themselves and that isn't actually supported by the statistic they're looking at.

 

[Kfox]

I mean, I have reality to base it on. If you think women behave badly toward men in a similar way and at a similar rate, you're welcome to provide evidence for the claim.

I said similar rate, not similar way.

That's your own judgement. I'm pointing out behavior. Anything you want to attach to it is irrelevant.

I was the one making the point, and it's relevant to my point

Clearly that's not true, as evidenced by this very question we're talking about. It's also not at all a valid takeaway from what I said there. The point I was making there is that men are an integral part of a society. Women can't reproduce without them (generally speaking). Women are still attracted to them (generally speaking). Men have uses in society. Bears don't. You can live a perfectly normal life without ever interacting with a bear. It would be impossible for all women to avoid all contact with men, as things stand now. The fact that women interact with men and not bears in no way shows that they fear bears more. It shows men are still a necessary part of society.

Any woman who fears men more than bears would avoid men the way they avoid bears. The fact that most women don't do this proves most women don't fear men more than bears.

I already did in the part you're replying to here. I'll quote you again:

My quote only said the media gives plenty of examples of men behaving badly. But NOWHERE did I say "men in general have a tendency to treat women poorly and feel free to harass them or worse." that's some stuff you claimed; I'm asking you to support that claim

You're talking about a statistic, one that shows similar behavior, just slightly more pronounced in one group. You're trying to use a very different and irrelevant point to dismiss this very valid one. I'll lay it out more plainly for you:

Women, in their everyday lives, deal with a lot of bad behavior from men. That includes, unwanted advances, sexual harassment, sexual assault, rape, and other things. It happens constantly to pretty much all women. Women don't look at statistics and say "Oh, look, this group does this thing at a higher rate than this other group, so I'll be afraid of that first group". They have constant personal experiences of a phenomenon, and so their perspective reflects that. That's usually how humans work.

Your example is of a person who looks at a statistic and determines they should be fearful of a whole group based on something they haven't actually experienced themselves and that isn't actually supported by the statistic they're looking at.

No; my example is of a white person who has had a bad experience with a black person, and using his bad experience to judge black men in general as being bad.

 

[Magic Man]

I said similar rate, not similar way.

Right, and if it's a completely different kind of behavior, it's not relevant. Being condescending might be bad behavior, but it doesn't make someone afraid of you.

I was the one making the point, and it's relevant to my point

It is not. It's your value judgement, and you're doing it to try to get me to agree to something without actually addressing the thing itself. Stick to behavior.

Any woman who fears men more than bears would avoid men the way they avoid bears. The fact that most women don't do this proves most women don't fear men more than bears.

Nope. I already covered this. Bears are unnecessary in our society. If they went extinct, it would be sad, but it wouldn't affect our overall society or the daily lives of women. Men are still necessary. Most women still find men attractive and want to have a relationship with them.

The fact that women react differently to bears just means that there is a lot more to it than your simple comparison.

My quote only said the media gives plenty of examples of men behaving badly. But NOWHERE did I say "men in general have a tendency to treat women poorly and feel free to harass them or worse." that's some stuff you claimed; I'm asking you to support that claim

So, you agree that there are plenty of examples of men behaving badly, but now you want me to provide...examples of men behaving badly. I hope you'll see how this doesn't make sense. Do you agree with your previous assertion that there are plenty of examples of men behaving badly, or do you now disagree with yourself?

No; my example is of a white person who has had a bad experience with a black person, and using his bad experience to judge black men in general as being bad.

No, you used a statistic, not actual experiences. If you want to make it similar enough to compare, your situation would have to include:

Most white people having the same experience.
Society being controlled by Black people, and there being a history of supporting or at least not punishing the type of behavior exhibited by Black people.
Having such experiences with Black people on a daily basis.
Not having similar experiences at a similar rate with other people.
Other racial groups not having the same experience with Black people.

There might be other aspects I'm missing, but I hope you get the point. We're talking about women's daily experiences with men, not statistics that show slightly higher rates of one thing than another.

 

[Kfox]

Right, and if it's a completely different kind of behavior, it's not relevant. Being condescending might be bad behavior, but it doesn't make someone afraid of you.

It's not about a specific behavior, otherwise they would list the behavior.

It is not. It's your value judgement, and you're doing it to try to get me to agree to something without actually addressing the thing itself. Stick to behavior.

Again; if it were about a specific behavior, they would have listed the behavior (rape, murder, assault etc.)

Nope. I already covered this. Bears are unnecessary in our society. If they went extinct, it would be sad, but it wouldn't affect our overall society or the daily lives of women. Men are still necessary. Most women still find men attractive and want to have a relationship with them.

It's not about 100% of women feeling this way, it's about a percentage of them. If a percentage of women chose to move away from men, it would affect their lives not those who choose to continue living amongst men

So, you agree that there are plenty of examples of men behaving badly, but now you want me to provide...examples of men behaving badly.

No; I want you to provide proof that MEN IN GENERAL treat women badly and feel free to harass them or worse. Back THAT up!

No, you used a statistic, not actual experiences.

I used that comparison many times before using it on you; my original comparison was about a person using their own personal experiences to justify the bigotry

 

[Balthazzar]

It's far too big a subject (woman's fear of men), and much too complex to be positing any conclusions without a whole lot of strong, reliable data to turn some apparent correlation into actual causation and conclusion.

People rarely bring up men fearing woman, so it's a little off balance. It's almost like just expecting parents to trust and have unyielding faith in the clergy. Misandry aside, some women are worthy of running from. No bull.

 

[Magic Man]

It's not about a specific behavior, otherwise they would list the behavior.

It is about specific behavior. It's about sexual harassment and assault and rape. It's about creepy behavior in those areas. It's about the ways our society supports this type of behavior by men.

Again; if it were about a specific behavior, they would have listed the behavior (rape, murder, assault etc.)

Who would have listed it? The specific type of behavior has been brought up here many times. It's typically a big part of this conversation wherever it takes place.

It's not about 100% of women feeling this way, it's about a percentage of them. If a percentage of women chose to move away from men, it would affect their lives not those who choose to continue living amongst men

I'm not sure why you think this is something that needs to be said. Yes, women moving away from all interaction with men would affect their lives but not the lives of the women who continue to live with men. I mean, that's just an obvious fact.

You didn't address the actual point. Women still choosing to live in society with men and still interact with them does not indicate that women are more afraid of bears. It indicates exactly what you say here. Trying to move away from our society to avoid all contact with men would be nearly impossible and would require an immense change in their lives. Living away from bears is the default.

No; I want you to provide proof that MEN IN GENERAL treat women badly and feel free to harass them or worse. Back THAT up!

You agree there are plenty of examples of this. So, do you agree with yourself, or do you reject your claim?

I used that comparison many times before using it on you; my original comparison was about a person using their own personal experiences to justify the bigotry

Great. It still doesn't work. The first thing is they'd have to have daily experiences where only Black people treated them a certain way. They'd have to have hundreds or thousands of those experiences with no experiences of anyone else treating them that way. Since that's not the case, your comparison doesn't work.