Italian writer against women choosing the bear: hating men has become fashionable

[Kfox]

So, you didn't say this?

I was quoting the title of this thread.

You sure are getting upset for some reason. She answered your question. A simple yes or no would not suffice there. You wanted a simply yes or no, because giving full context goes against what you're trying to accomplish. Sadly, this isn't a simple black and white scenario,

I asked a question, and she gave an answer to a question I did not ask. She could have said no she doesn’t run and hide, but she does XXX with her keys, cell phone, etc. IOW she could have answered the question AND provided context.

 

[Magic Man]

Why is asking multiple people necessary to show bigotry?

I'm unclear on why you're even asking this question. The difference between the two scenarios that I pointed out is that one was asked of real people, and we're talking about their real answers. Yours was made up by you and asked of no one.

Okay; let’s say it’s only one race, the lady fears black people. Is it bigotry to fear and distrust all black people based on her own personal experiences with black people?

Yes. The other factors would need to be present for it not to be bigotry. Those factors are the ones I've repeatedly pointed out to you, including when you first asked this.

 

[Magic Man]

I was quoting the title of this thread.

Right, and agreeing with it.

I asked a question, and she gave an answer to a question I did not ask. She could have said no she doesn’t run and hide, but she does XXX with her keys, cell phone, etc. IOW she could have answered the question AND provided context.

The "no" was implied. You're grasping at straws here. Instead of giving the obvious answer to your question, she gave a more informative one that still addressed your question. But you're trying to latch onto something as a "gotcha" instead of just engaging in good faith.

By the way, I've asked twice what this question was you asked us that we "ignored", and you haven't answered.

 

[Kfox]

You definitely seem to think it's about hating men.

No, I think it's about sexism.

What you asked me was, "Do you hide for cover if you see a man around? Praying he doesn’t notice you?"

The thing about the car keys was my response to that.
And again, instead of actually listening to me ....

Then you should have said Yes or No (which would answer my question) and then tell me what you also do (car keys, cell phone, etc) that would have been a perfectly reasonable response.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I was quoting the title of this thread.

I asked a question, and she gave an answer to a question I did not ask. She could have said no she doesn’t run and hide, but she does XXX with her keys, cell phone, etc. IOW she could have answered the question AND provided context.

Your question was, "Do you hide for cover if you see a man around? Praying he doesn’t notice you?"

My full response was, "If I'm alone, I put my car keys between my fingers, just in case. Or I pretend I'm on my phone. Or something similar."

Then I went on to point out that I've already told you this before and that it's clear you aren't actually listening to me.

Honestly, I don't really care if you like my response or not. I told you what I'd do (and have done) when encountering strange men when I'm alone.
I don't think you'd really be happy with any answer I gave you, anyway.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, I think it's about sexism.

Well, it's not. As already pointed out and explained several times by myself and others.

Then you should have said Yes or No (which would answer my question) and then tell me what you also do (car keys, cell phone, etc) that would have been a perfectly reasonable response.

My response was, "If I'm alone, I put my car keys between my fingers, just in case. Or I pretend I'm on my phone. Or something similar."

I'm sorry that you're unable to infer from that response that I wouldn't "run and hide", but would instead, arm myself with my car keys.
Then I further explained to you that in your given scenario, it would be too late to "run and hide" if I'd already seen the man.

Sorry that's too complicated for you. Perhaps try reading my posts from a position of attempting to understand instead of whatever it is that you're doing now.

 

[Kfox]

I'm unclear on why you're even asking this question. The difference between the two scenarios that I pointed out is that one was asked of real people, and we're talking about their real answers. Yours was made up by you and asked of no one.

Of course they’re different; one question was to show how much women fear men they don’t know, the other was to show how inconsistent they are in expressing fear of gender in a way they would never express when it comes to race; two different types of questions.

Yes. The other factors would need to be present for it not to be bigotry. Those factors are the ones I've repeatedly pointed out to you, including when you first asked this.

Thanks for answering my question, and you’ve made my point; you find it acceptable to express fear of men you don’t know based on negative experiences you’ve had with men in the past, but you would find it unacceptable to express fear of black people that you don’t know based on negative experiences you’ve had with black people in the past

The "no" was implied

Sorry for the inability to read minds.

By the way, I've asked twice what this question was you asked us that we "ignored", and you haven't answered

The only questions I’ve asked were;

* if you saw a man approaching that you didn’t know, would you run and hide like you would with a bear, and
*Would you find it acceptable if a white person considered black people more dangerous than wild animals based on negative experiences they had in the past with black people.

 

[Kfox]

Your question was, "Do you hide for cover if you see a man around? Praying he doesn’t notice you?"

My full response was, "If I'm alone, I put my car keys between my fingers, just in case. Or I pretend I'm on my phone. Or something similar."

Then I went on to point out that I've already told you this before and that it's clear you aren't actually listening to me.

I did listen to you. My point is had you seen a bear, you would have done a heck of a lot more than arm yourself with keys and grab your cell phone. I suspect your response would have been more drastic in the presence of a bear than a man because even though you will never admit it, you really fear the bear more than a man that you don't know.

 

[Magic Man]

Of course they’re different; one question was to show how much women fear men they don’t know, the other was to show how inconsistent they are in expressing fear of gender in a way they would never express when it comes to race; two different types of questions.

No, they're different in that one is real and the other is fake, a scenario you entirely made up. They are not inconsistent. I've explained many times the factors involved, and you just ignore them each and every time. Here are those factors that are present in the real question:

An environment where women deal with creepy/rapey behavior by Black people but no one else almost daily. It would be so widespread that women would commiserate about it all the time. Society would have to support that behavior by men in subtle and obvious ways.

Just accept that your scenario is made up and not comparable, and move on.

Thanks for answering my question, and you’ve made my point; you find it acceptable to express fear of men you don’t know based on negative experiences you’ve had with men in the past, but you would find it unacceptable to express fear of black people that you don’t know based on negative experiences you’ve had with black people in the past

I didn't make that point. Here's the real deal:

It makes sense that when women deal with creepy/rapey behavior by men from when they're very young on almost a daily basis, they would become very wary of men they don't know. They would form habits like carrying mace or keys through their fingers, always being on edge when alone in a place where a strange man might appear, avoiding certain types of places, like dark streets, wooded paths, etc. This is all a response to the constant experiences they have with men. So, when they then say they'd choose to meet a bear alone in the woods, rather than a man, it's just further acknowledgement of this phenomenon.

What doesn't make sense is someone fearing all Black people because they had a couple bad experiences. That's neither comparable to the above scenario nor logical.

Sorry for the inability to read minds.

You don't have to. You just have to engage in good faith and have the most basic comprehension skills.

The only questions I’ve asked were;

And they were answered.

* if you saw a man approaching that you didn’t know, would you run and hide like you would with a bear, and

Answered fully with context.

*Would you find it acceptable if a white person considered black people more dangerous than wild animals based on negative experiences they had in the past with black people.

Answered and explained. If all factors were the same as the scenario we're talking about, then that reaction would make sense. Since those factors are not the same in your made-up scenario, then no, it doesn't make sense.

So, yet again, here's the deal:

Women were asked whether they'd choose a strange man or a bear to meet while alone in the woods. A significant number choose the bear.

What you do with that info is to take it in, reflect on it and realize that the stuff women have to deal with from men is much worse than you realized.

What you don't do is make up ridiculous scenarios, twist things and not listen in order to try to dismiss the thing women are trying to tell you.

Women are not bigoted for this response. They are reacting to something real, and their reaction makes sense. They don't hate all men. They aren't intolerant toward all men. They are simply wary of them due to the huge number of bad interactions they've had with them (and not with women).

The best thing to do would be take a step back, actually listen and try to understand, and adjust your worldview accordingly.

 

[Kfox]

No, they're different in that one is real and the other is fake, a scenario you entirely made up. They are not inconsistent. I've explained many times the factors involved, and you just ignore them each and every time. Here are those factors that are present in the real question:

An environment where women deal with creepy/rapey behavior by Black people but no one else almost daily. It would be so widespread that women would commiserate about it all the time. Society would have to support that behavior by men in subtle and obvious ways.

Just accept that your scenario is made up and not comparable, and move on.


I didn't make that point. Here's the real deal:

It makes sense that when women deal with creepy/rapey behavior by men from when they're very young on almost a daily basis, they would become very wary of men they don't know. They would form habits like carrying mace or keys through their fingers, always being on edge when alone in a place where a strange man might appear, avoiding certain types of places, like dark streets, wooded paths, etc. This is all a response to the constant experiences they have with men. So, when they then say they'd choose to meet a bear alone in the woods, rather than a man, it's just further acknowledgement of this phenomenon.

What doesn't make sense is someone fearing all Black people because they had a couple bad experiences. That's neither comparable to the above scenario nor logical.

You don't have to. You just have to engage in good faith and have the most basic comprehension skills.

And they were answered.

Answered fully with context.

Answered and explained. If all factors were the same as the scenario we're talking about, then that reaction would make sense. Since those factors are not the same in your made-up scenario, then no, it doesn't make sense.

So, yet again, here's the deal:

Women were asked whether they'd choose a strange man or a bear to meet while alone in the woods. A significant number choose the bear.

What you do with that info is to take it in, reflect on it and realize that the stuff women have to deal with from men is much worse than you realized.

What you don't do is make up ridiculous scenarios, twist things and not listen in order to try to dismiss the thing women are trying to tell you.

Women are not bigoted for this response. They are reacting to something real, and their reaction makes sense. They don't hate all men. They aren't intolerant toward all men. They are simply wary of them due to the huge number of bad interactions they've had with them (and not with women).

The best thing to do would be take a step back, actually listen and try to understand, and adjust your worldview accordingly.

Before I respond, I would like to ask you a few questions for clarification because your claims appear a bit vague and lacking context. You have repeatedly said

Everyday women deal with dangerous and creepy behavior from men on a daily basis.

What does that mean? Are you suggesting

A……. Everyday in a country of nearly 200 million women, at least 1 of those women experience dangerous behavior from men; it’s not the same woman every day, or the same man everyday, but somewhere some place a woman experiences this every day

B…… In a country of nearly 200 million women, there is a percentage (somewhere between 99%-.0001%) of those women who experience such dangerous behavior from men every day, perhaps she knows the man and he knows her, perhaps they don't know each other.

C….. In a country of 200 million women; ALL of them experience such dangerous behavior from men, every day.



Or perhaps something else. If something else please explain.

 

[crossfire]

Please reference or link to the bigoted responses. Thank you.

Especially the ones the fit the definition of bigot

See the definition of bigot:

bigot​

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Second request.

<edit to add> perhaps someone else would like to reference the responses that fit the definition of bigot? Thank you.

 

[Magic Man]

Before I respond, I would like to ask you a few questions for clarification because your claims appear a bit vague and lacking context. You have repeatedly said

Everyday women deal with dangerous and creepy behavior from men on a daily basis.

What does that mean? Are you suggesting

A……. Everyday in a country of nearly 200 million women, at least 1 of those women experience dangerous behavior from men; it’s not the same woman every day, or the same man everyday, but somewhere some place a woman experiences this every day

B…… In a country of nearly 200 million women, there is a percentage (somewhere between 99%-.0001%) of those women who experience such dangerous behavior from men every day, perhaps she knows the man and he knows her, perhaps they don't know each other.

C….. In a country of 200 million women; ALL of them experience such dangerous behavior from men, every day.



Or perhaps something else. If something else please explain.

If you're going to ask me what I mean, at least quote me correctly. I'll give you the quote from the post you quoted:

"women deal with creepy/rapey behavior by men from when they're very young on almost a daily basis"

What that means is that the vast majority of women deal with this behavior almost daily. The entire point of this is that it shows just how widespread these experiences are. That's what you should take away from women choosing the bear.

 

[Kfox]

If you're going to ask me what I mean, at least quote me correctly. I'll give you the quote from the post you quoted:

"women deal with creepy/rapey behavior by men from when they're very young on almost a daily basis"

My bad; I used the term "dangerous"; because that's what I thought we were talking about. So what is "creepy/rapey? And how is this different from dangerous? Is it sarcastic jokes about sex, or playful sexual innuendoes, or something else?

 

[Magic Man]

My bad; I used the term "dangerous"; because that's what I thought we were talking about. So what is "creepy/rapey? And how is this different from dangerous? Is it sarcastic jokes about sex, or playful sexual innuendoes, or something else?

It can be anything from a comment or a look to catcalling to touching all the way up to rape. Even what most men consider just "coming on to her" or "trying to pick her up" can be a threat. Often when a woman rejects, even politely, a man's advances, he gets angry.

 

[Kfox]

It can be anything from a comment or a look to catcalling to touching all the way up to rape. Even what most men consider just "coming on to her" or "trying to pick her up" can be a threat. Often when a woman rejects, even politely, a man's advances, he gets angry.

You can't put rape in the same category as a look, or a comment where she does not feel in danger. Would it be fair to assume 99% of the time it's just comments, looks, or asking her out/pick up?

 

[Magic Man]

You can't put rape in the same category as a look, or a comment where she does not feel in danger. Would it be fair to assume 99% of the time it's just comments, looks, or asking her out/pick up?

Yes, you can. It's all part of the same thing. Rape is the worst, obviously, but it's the same general category of behavior. It would not be fair to assume that, and it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[Kfox]

Yes, you can. It's all part of the same thing. Rape is the worst, obviously, but it's the same general category of behavior. It would not be fair to assume that, and it doesn't matter anyway.

It seems to me from your description; many of the actions under "creepy/rapey" is only creepy/rapey if she doesn't find him attractive; if he is attractive, that creepy/rapey behavior magically becomes welcomed behavior. I don't see that as in the same category as something dangerous like rape that is rape whether she finds him attractive or not. However I don't think guys should be judged harshly for some of the things you consider to be creepy/rapey, and it definitely ain't worse than what a bear will do to ya

 

[Magic Man]

It seems to me from your description; many of the actions under "creepy/rapey" is only creepy/rapey if she doesn't find him attractive; if he is attractive, that creepy/rapey behavior magically becomes welcomed behavior. I don't see that as in the same category as something dangerous like rape that is rape whether she finds him attractive or not. However I don't think guys should be judged harshly for some of the things you consider to be creepy/rapey, and it definitely ain't worse than what a bear will do to ya

You're hitting all the misogynistic talking points, huh?

Look, they deal with creepy/rapey behavior almost on a daily basis, starting from when they're young, often when they're around 10-11. Your opinion on how bad those things are is neither relevant nor welcome. It's not your place to tell women "hey, it's not that bad. I should know, I'm a guy who doesn't deal with it or even know about it".

Whether or not it's worse than what a bear will do is also irrelevant. Again, listen to the women. Listen to what they're telling you. Instead of telling them they're wrong and bigoted, and you should know because you're a guy who doesn't understand the situation, accept what they're telling you and realize your worldview needs an adjustment.

 

[Kfox]

You're hitting all the misogynistic talking points, huh?

Look, they deal with creepy/rapey behavior almost on a daily basis, starting from when they're young, often when they're around 10-11. Your opinion on how bad those things are is neither relevant nor welcome. It's not your place to tell women "hey, it's not that bad. I should know, I'm a guy who doesn't deal with it or even know about it".

Whether or not it's worse than what a bear will do is also irrelevant. Again, listen to the women. Listen to what they're telling you. Instead of telling them they're wrong and bigoted, and you should know because you're a guy who doesn't understand the situation, accept what they're telling you and realize your worldview needs an adjustment.

You seem to be under the impression I live on an island by myself, with no contact with women in my life and I judge female experiences based on my own. You couldn't be further from the truth. I have a wife, sisters, nieces, friends, coworkers, who are women and if there is one thing women do is they talk when they are upset. If my wife and the many women in my life were dealing with half the stuff you say women deal with on a daily basis, I would be all over the guy with the creepy/rapey behavior; and it's not just me, but countless other guys I know. I and countless other guys I know would be kickin' **** every day if the women in our lives were harassed the way you say they are. That's why I say you are exaggerating, because what they tell me is far different than what you are telling me.

 

[Magic Man]

You seem to be under the impression I live on an island by myself, with no contact with women in my life and I judge female experiences based on my own. You couldn't be further from the truth. I have a wife, sisters, nieces, friends, coworkers, who are women and if there is one thing women do is they talk when they are upset. If my wife and the many women in my life were dealing with half the stuff you say women deal with on a daily basis, I would be all over the guy with the creepy/rapey behavior; and it's not just me, but countless other guys I know. I and countless other guys I know would be kickin' **** every day if the women in our lives were harassed the way you say they are. That's why I say you are exaggerating, because what they tell me is far different than what you are telling me.

I don't think you live on an island by yourself. You're just oblivious to what women deal with. I was too for a long time. You don't experience it, and it's not shoved in your face, so you don't know it exists. That's the point of this exercise, to point out how prevalent this really is, despite the fact that a lot of men don't know it.

Also, the idea of "kicking ***" is another typical "macho man" response. First, this is happening. I guarantee the women in your life would attest to it. So, by your own admission, you should be out "kicking ***". But that's an unhelpful response. It's meant more to make you feel better than to address the situation. "Kicking ***" isn't going to help this. Sure, in certain rare situation, that might happen.

But the main thing you can do is actually listen to women. Acknowledge what they tell you. Instead of arguing back, telling them they're bigots and making stuff up, accept what they're saying. That would go a whole lot further than "kicking ***". It's not a solution, but it can help lead to one.