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Italy 50% mortality rate with COVID-19

Cooky

Veteran Member
Bear in mind though that the actual number of people infected is probably ten times the number of confirmed cases. Which makes the real mortality rate much lower.

Probably so. But I'm excluding all speculations and assumptions at this point. I'm also excluding the assumption that every single infected person will recover, which is why the estimate of 1% to 5% is an "assumed" figure.

...I'm going on "facts". In real time.

It seems you are hellbend on believing this is somehow among the most deadliest of deseases ever, no matter the evidence.

I'm excluding all assumptioms, probabilities, and guessess, and going off actual 'facts' in 'real time'.

So of the 13000 or so active cases, most will survive.

We hope so. But that's not fact-based evidence. I'm going with the actual, recorded numbers and following them wherever they go.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Exactly. Thank you. This thread was and is about Italy specifically, with me encouraging people to keep an eye on Italy, and merely observe it. :thumbsup:

And you also incorrectly claiming the mortality is 50%

It isn't. Not even remotely.

All things considered (including making pessimistic assumptions about unreported / unconfirmed cases), the real mortality rate is probably closer to 1% - if it's even that high.

And you'll find that the major bulk of these deaths are 75+ of age WITH additional complications (and thus weakened immunity). Then there's also those with astma etc.

But off course, if you openly acknowledge that you ignore the vast bulk of data, then you'll only be drawin incorrect conclusions.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
And you also incorrectly claiming the mortality is 50%

It isn't. Not even remotely.

All things considered (including making pessimistic assumptions about unreported / unconfirmed cases), the real mortality rate is probably closer to 1% - if it's even that high.

And you'll find that the major bulk of these deaths are 75+ of age WITH additional complications (and thus weakened immunity). Then there's also those with astma etc.

But off course, if you openly acknowledge that you ignore the vast bulk of data, then you'll only be drawin incorrect conclusions.

I've never claimed that the death rate will remain at any specific number. I'm just taking snapshots in time, if that makes any sense... And keepimg an eye on Italy as time moves on.

...Because Italy is trustworthy specimen, that can be monitored accurately.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Probably so. But I'm excluding all speculations and assumptions at this point.

It's not just an assumption. It is a fact that most people who report to their doctor by phone that they have a cough, a fever, a running nose, all of the above,... are just being told to stay home. They aren't being tested.

Surely some of them would test positive, were they tested.

Then there is also the known fact that plenty of people don't even notice that they were infected. They simply have NO symptoms and do NOT feel sick AT ALL. Yet, they are infected and they can pass on the virus to others. This is why restaurants and schools and whatnot are closing down. It's because of those people who are infected and aren't noticing it because they don't become sick.

It's hard to tell how many of those there are, but it's clear it's going to be quite a lot. Enough for whole countries to shut down public life.

Again, this is not an assumption. It's a fact that plenty of people are infected and not counted as being infected, because they aren't tested and aren't being reported.


I just came back from the doctor with my son. He had a high fever, running nose and cough. He wasn't tested. The doctor *thinks* it's a common flu, but it *could* be corona as well.

But he's a healthy 4-year old kid. He's not having problems breathing. He's not a risk patient. So he's just send home and we are being told to avoid contact with anyone. That's it.

Does my kid have covid19? Maybe. If he does, then I do to. So does my wife. So does his sister. So do his cousins with whom he's been playing all weekend. And likely so will a couple of his friends from school (friday was the last day of school here in belgium). His cousins have no symtoms. Does that mean they aren't infected? No.

See....

I'm also excluding the assumption that every single infected person will recover, which is why the estimate of 1% to 5% is an "assumed" figure.

Again, the reported % is anything but assumption. The mortality rate of a desease is the amount of dead relative to the amount infected.

The number is correct. Subject to change, obviously, but correct nonetheless.
Your "50%" isn't correct in any way whatsoever.

...I'm going on "facts". In real time.

You aren't. The facts support the 1 to 3% figure. No facts support 50%


I'm excluding all assumptioms, probabilities, and guessess, and going off actual 'facts' in 'real time'.

You aren't, because you are ignoring the total amount infected.
You are only looking at cured vs dead while we are still in full incubation period. Being killed by the virus goes waay faster then curing from it. So obviously in full incubation period, the dead will come first and then people will start curing.

Depending on the profile, death can be the result in a matter of days.
While curing (to the point of being confirmed and reported as "cured") takes 3 to 4 weeks.

To illustrate with numbers....

Say today 1000 people get infected.
Next week, 30 of those die.
3 weeks after that, the other 970 are cured.

So during those 3 weeks, you'll have figures saying this:
1000 infected
30 dead
0 cured

In your "logic", this would equate to a 100% mortality rate.

Obviously you should be able to see how utterly ridiculous that is.

We hope so. But that's not fact-based evidence.

Yes it is. You might not notice it though, if that data is among the facts that you choose to simply ignore.

I'm going with the actual, recorded numbers and following them wherever they go.

That IS what the actual, recorded numbers are saying.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
@TagliatelliMonster, does your mortality rate include all infected persons in hospitals as recovered? Odds are, a lot of those reported cases include people in ICU.

...So the number of deaths will increase as long as there are people being reported as infected... Because they're likely hospitalized. Possibly even on ventilators in intensive care units.

We shouldn't downplay the seriousness of this just because some people get the virus and don't get sick.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Maybe when everyone calms down, later, someone can patiently explain why:
  • 2061 completed cases
  • 1016 dead
  • 1045 recovered
...Are the wrong numbers to use for Italy.

Here are the latest numbers:

Italy Coronavirus: 24,747 Cases and 1,809 Deaths - Worldometer

As you can see the page has now been updated and is a little more clearer as to what "recovered" means. Again, you are ignoring the correct denominator. People "in Mild Condition" are NOT dying at a 50% rate. People "in Mild Condition" are NOT dying at all. So you are not using the correct denominator in calculating your percentage.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Again, you are ignoring the correct denominator
But don't miss out on the new "denominator" ... death increase of 80% in just 3 days
Imagine if this would continue for just a few weeks ... increase of 80% every 3 days
Which is not a crazy thought ... computervirus goes fast, so does a real virus
In just 57 days the virus got them all (60 million people in Italy)
Of course this probably won't happen, because all people stay inside as told, but nevertheless
I think it is good to remind the people, that some viruses are quite nasty little bugs that can cause havoc
Luckily China has shown us, it won't go like below if we be as strict as China has been
(assuming they gave us the correct numbers of course)

upload_2020-3-16_15-42-40.png
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
@TagliatelliMonster, does your mortality rate include all infected persons in hospitals as recovered? Odds are, a lot of those reported cases include people in ICU.

...So the number of deaths will increase as long as there are people being reported as infected... Because they're likely hospitalized. Possibly even on ventilators in intensive care units.

There are 1058 confirmed cases in belgium.
Of those some 300 are hospitalized.
Of those 31 are in ICU.

Most of the confirmed cases were so mild that the people were send home.
It is estimated that the actual number of infection is easily +3000 but that the majority simply doesn't notice it or just has a mild cough or whathever, not worth testing for.

By focussing on this one number, you are focussing on the pixel and completely losing track of the big picture.

Your % is utterly and completely and delusionally wrong.

We shouldn't downplay the seriousness of this just because some people get the virus and don't get sick.

Neither should we do the opposite.

I'm being extremely responsible in this whole thing. I send all my employees home. I don't want anyone taking the bus or whatever. Some of these guys live with their parents aged +65. Not taking the bus can potentially save the lives of these older folk.

It IS serious. A mortality rate of 1% for a desease that as of yet has no vaccine, no matter what the demographics thereof are, is VERY serious.

But let's not engage in fear mongering with false data.

Being honest and rational is not the same as downplaying it
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
If an old lady dies at Wal-Mart from a heart attack, while fighting for a big package of TP, does that count as a Covid19 death?
Tom
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Anybody who watched Trump declare a national emergency today must now realize that he totally does not get it. Watch him shake hands with many people, constantly adust microphones that everybody else is also adjusting and speaking into at very close range. Utterly clueless.

And his response to the woman who asked him about his adminstration's closure of the White Pandemic office -- which has certainly contributed to the late start getting control of this thing -- should now know that you are being led by an utter moron.

I wish you luck. I really do. From my heart.

He certainly wasn't his usual arrogant self. I think that faced with a problem he can't fire someone to fix takes him completely out of his element.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
But don't miss out on the new "denominator" ... death increase of 80% in just 3 days
Imagine if this would continue for just a few weeks ... increase of 80% every 3 days
Which is not a crazy thought ... computervirus goes fast, so does a real virus
In just 57 days the virus got them all (60 million people in Italy)
Of course this probably won't happen, because all people stay inside as told, but nevertheless
I think it is good to remind the people, that some viruses are quite nasty little bugs that can cause havoc
Luckily China has shown us, it won't go like below if we be as strict as China has been
(assuming they gave us the correct numbers of course)

Oh boy, math is definitely not your strong suit. I'm not saying it's not serious but you are hysterical with fear. It's funny how the people who claim to know exactly where the soul is going to go when they die are always the ones who are the most afraid of it happening.

Click on the following link and lets review the numbers together. I will hold your hand.

Italy Coronavirus: 27,980 Cases and 2,158 Deaths - Worldometer

Active cases: 23,073 (denominator)
In Mild Condition: 22,222 (92%)
Serious or Critical: 1851 (8%)

Closed cases: 4907
Recovered/Discharged: 2749 (56%)
Deaths: 2158 (44%)

Okay, those are the facts. The people "In Mild Condition" are not going to die. This is what mild condition means. The denominator is not 4907 of the entire population. 4907 is just the denominator of cases that have declared as "Serious or Critical". If you get this virus and end up in the hospital you have a 56% chance to live.

This is very bad but not the end of the World. Here buy this t-shirt and wear it for me in one year's time:

I survived the end of the world again shirt | Zazzle.com
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
I do not get 50% mortality. ??? But I have not read the full thread.

It has been determined there is a 50% chance one of us posting on this thread did not stock up on enough toilet paper.

But seriously, the 50% number has to do with the "Recovered" count being used incorrectly as the denominator in calculating percentages. The "Recovered" count is not taking into account the number of people "In Mild Condition" after testing positive.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Oh boy, math is definitely not your strong suit. I'm not saying it's not serious but you are hysterical with fear. It's funny how the people who claim to know exactly where the soul is going to go when they die are always the ones who are the most afraid of it happening.
Thanks for your opinion. You are wrong here though.
I am not histerical with fear. I would love to die, no fear for dying at all. I have had a few very close encounters and near death experience; great ones
Maybe you project your fear on me; because it is definitely not my fear.

Again you are wrong, I never claimed that I know "exactly" where the soul is going to go when humans die (I don't even know "not exactly")
Again you are wrong, I never claimed that I believe in a soul going somewhere; I just had a few near death experiences; that's all.

You missed the facts: Friday 1000 died so far, Monday 800 were added. So 80% dead increase as compared to Friday. Simple math.
I was not talking about other numbers, only those 2 numbers.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your opinion. You are wrong here though.
I am not histerical with fear. I would love to die, no fear for dying at all. I have had a few very close encounters and near death experience; great ones
Maybe you project your fear on me; because it is definitely not my fear.

Again you are wrong, I never claimed that I know "exactly" where the soul is going to go when humans die (I don't even know "not exactly")
Again you are wrong, I never claimed that I believe in a soul going somewhere; I just had a few near death experiences; that's all.

You missed the facts: Friday 1000 died so far, Monday 800 were added. So 80% dead increase as compared to Friday. Simple math.
I was not talking about other numbers, only those 2 numbers.

The 80% number would only mean something if there were no new cases. How many news cases were added to the numbers plus the number of cases recovered? It looks like 3300 new cases were added. Again, I am not saying this is not serious. But there is no reason to inflate the hysteria by claiming the 80% means something when the total death rate has remained at 8% for Itally.

Italy Coronavirus: 27,980 Cases and 2,158 Deaths - Worldometer

Here is a bunch of articles on the mortality rate:

Coronavirus Mortality Rate (COVID-19) - Worldometer

The panic is bad enough as it is. Claiming the death rate rose 80% is like yelling fire in a theater. Stop being a jerk: "“Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died. By comparison, seasonal flu generally kills far fewer than 1% of those infected."

Coronavirus Mortality Rate (COVID-19) - Worldometer
 
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