January 6th, Just What Was It?

[Jose Fly]

I accept your concession.

 

[Stevicus]

That's a good question. Insurrection requires "armed resistance" and, as far as I know, no weapons were involved. Maybe riot would be more appropriate? Or an "occupy Capitol"?

What do you think?

I would say that it was an attempted insurrection by a minority of those that invaded the Capitol. Please note that most were not charged with insurrection. But being a useful idiot to those that are trying to overthrow the government, not matter how ridiculously unprepared they were to do so, still puts the lives of others at risk. In fact one of the rioters did die because she was part of an armed mob that was trying to break in. That she herself was unarmed was besides the point. It is rather difficult to pat down everyone and only arrest those that have weapons in such a situation.

It may have been an attempted insurrection, although in the aftermath, I saw some commentators and politicians going so far as to compare it to the Civil War and suggest that America's government was precariously perched on the precipice of being overthrown. I think that may have been an exaggeration.

I do recall that in the weeks prior to January 6, without even being asked, the military made it clear that they would do their duty and follow the Constitution and respect the legal processes taking place. Indeed, the military quickly responded and defended the Capitol from any further disruptions or attacks. The US government was never in any real danger of being overthrown, even if we're assuming the worst case scenario coming to pass.

Of course, that doesn't mitigate or excuse any criminal actions from that day. But I knew the government was safe because I was relatively certain the military would not endorse or take part in any coup or insurrection.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Imo it was more LARPing

No, they weren't role playing. And I'm a LARPer. We know it's fake and just a game. The insurrectionists weren't playing.

 

[Augustus]

Mainly because:

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/11/955548910/ex-capitol-police-chief-rebuffs-claims-national-guard-was-never-called-during-ri

Jan. 6 investigator says FBI could've done more to repel Capitol mob had they acted on intel

“Law enforcement had a very direct role in contributing to the security failures that led to the violence," said Tim Heaphy.

www.nbcnews.com

Former Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund's request for National Guard backup was denied, he says in interview

Former Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund says his requests for National Guard assistance before and during the riot were repeatedly turned down.

www.usatoday.com

Too many loop holes that just don't add up IMO

That bureaucratic organisations often display inefficient/ineffective behaviours in response to novel crisis situations is pretty well established fact.

If we looked at many other non-controversial incidents we would see similar confusion/error/miscalculation but it never comes to light as the situations are not publicly scrutinised in minute detail.

Given a massive deep state conspiracy has to be one of the least plausible explanations for events, why do you rule out "they handled it badly" as a more plausible explanation?

Do you generally have a lot of faith in the competence of large governmental bureaucracies?

 

[Kenny]

It may have been an attempted insurrection, although in the aftermath, I saw some commentators and politicians going so far as to compare it to the Civil War and suggest that America's government was precariously perched on the precipice of being overthrown. I think that may have been an exaggeration.

I do recall that in the weeks prior to January 6, without even being asked, the military made it clear that they would do their duty and follow the Constitution and respect the legal processes taking place. Indeed, the military quickly responded and defended the Capitol from any further disruptions or attacks. The US government was never in any real danger of being overthrown, even if we're assuming the worst case scenario coming to pass.

Of course, that doesn't mitigate or excuse any criminal actions from that day. But I knew the government was safe because I was relatively certain the military would not endorse or take part in any coup or insurrection.

Finally some good common sense and great dialogue. A great difference than the volatile commentaries that I have been dealing with, so i thank you. I think I will ignore the other comments at this time.

Yes, it could have been an attempted insurrection but a very poorly executed effort. There was hardly enough arms to make that happen.

Just curious, what do you think of the denial of extra help before the attempt happened?

EDIT: Just found this

exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20

seems more like a few rag tag radical people that sucked in a ton of innocent people

 

[Stevicus]

Finally some good common sense and great dialogue. A great difference than the volatile commentaries that I have been dealing with, so i thank you. I think I will ignore the other comments at this time.

Yes, it could have been an attempted insurrection but a very poorly executed effort. There was hardly enough arms to make that happen.

Just curious, what do you think of the denial of extra help before the attempt happened?

EDIT: Just found this

exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20

I try to measure all of this within the background of what's been happening in the country overall these past several years. Admittedly, some of that can get confused within the cacophony of different news sources, different politicians, different pundits - all speaking at once and not really listening to what anyone else is saying. The matter has been pretty well covered and investigated, so there's very little I can add to what has already been stated by those more knowledgeable than myself. Although I have observed that there still remain sharp differences of opinion over the election of 2020 (as well as the election of 2022) and the events of January 6, 2021.

I've heard some people talk about civil war. I don't think such a thing could actually happen, at least not a shooting war. But a war of rhetoric, a kind of internal political "cold war" seems underway. It's not about complaining about a possible crooked election - even if it was crooked (although I don't believe it was). I would observe that the people who seem to gravitate towards Trump and believe that he should have continued as President are operating on a completely different wavelength. I think they're frustrated by the changing demographics and the changing political scene in America, and they want America to be back the way things used to be. For right or wrong, that's my opinion about what's going on and why some of those people might have been so upset at the prospect of Trump no longer being President.

Of course, people who are predisposed towards that are also vulnerable to even more agitation - and that's why some people have a certain antipathy towards Fox News (as well as Fox Radio, which has a local affiliate in my area). Some people have identified them as agitators, directing their message at a population which is economically insecure, somewhat disaffected, and generally dissatisfied with the state of affairs in the country. If they genuinely believed that there was some kind of election fraud taking place, and if they also believed that there was some kind of insidious communist plot to take over the government, then they might be compelled to try to stop it. Of course, they probably should have stopped and thought before rushing in like a bunch of mad idiots. But they got duped, and many of those who were convicted said as much at their trials.

As to your question about extra help, I think they should have had extra help to defend the Capitol. Of course, people can say it's 20/20 hindsight and someone made a judgment call which turned out to be wrong. It does happen, although I don't know if it proves anything. Nothing can be done about it now except learn from the mistake.

It should be interesting to see what kind of preparations they might be making for January, 2025. No matter who wins the election, I think they're going to make doubly sure to make sure that there are no repeat occurrences of January 6.

But even despite all of that, there will still remain the underlying political cold war that may plague us for many years to come.

 

[F1fan]

Finally some good common sense and great dialogue. A great difference than the volatile commentaries that I have been dealing with, so i thank you. I think I will ignore the other comments at this time.

Yes, it could have been an attempted insurrection but a very poorly executed effort. There was hardly enough arms to make that happen.

The proud boys had a plan (which failed, and they are facing very serious criminal charges) and I suspect many of the Trump followers wanted violence, but had no plan what to do as the violence overwhelmed the police. Once the violence started these Trump followers got involved immediately. These right wingers were manipulated by Trump and right wing media, and these followers were gullible and easily duped to commit these crimes. These were not smart people. Did they think they would get away with assault? Against police? To show up to protest was stupid enough since the election had no fraud as trump and right wing media claimed, but then to get violent?

Apart for the proud boys this group really didn't seem smart enough to know what to do once they broke into the Capitol. They just kept trying to attack anyone who was a member of the government. One was killed as she tried to climb through a broken door. That about 1000 were arrested and facing consequences illustrates how dumb these people were. They even took photographs and video of themselves doing it, which prosecutors used to convict them. So perhas to say this Trump mob weren't insurrectionsts might be correct since that would require some degree of intelligence.

 

[Stevicus]

The proud boys had a plan (which failed, and they are facing very serious criminal charges) and I suspect many of the Trump followers wanted violence, but had no plan what to do as the violence overwhelmed the police. Once the violence started these Trump followers got involved immediately. These right wingers were manipulated by Trump and right wing media, and these followers were gullible and easily duped to commit these crimes. These were not smart people. Did they think they would get away with assault? Against police? To show up to protest was stupid enough since the election had no fraud as trump and right wing media claimed, but then to get violent?

Apart for the proud boys this group really didn't seem smart enough to know what to do once they broke into the Capitol. They just kept trying to attack anyone who was a member of the government. One was killed as she tried to climb through a broken door. That about 1000 were arrested and facing consequences illustrates how dumb these people were. They even took photographs and video of themselves doing it, which prosecutors used to convict them. So perhas to say this Trump mob weren't insurrectionsts might be correct since that would require some degree of intelligence.

Even the proud boys seemed like they were running on a lean mixture, too, although they didn't seem to have any real plan either, other than to just cause mayhem.

It seems the only question left is whether this was just a one-off thing or if there might be similar plans in the future. January 2025 is just around the corner, and I'm sure no one wants a repeat of the 2021 fiasco.

 

[F1fan]

I was just watching a few minutes of the Liz Wheeler Show, and she is backing up Carlson's video and claims about Jacob Chandley's being innocent. She said the video would have been exculpatory and he wasn't allowed to use it. She said he is a political prisoner. She said he needs a retrial.

Well, no. The video is evidence of his guilt for the crime he was arrested and convicted of, that being Obstructing an official proceeding (18 U.S.C. § 1512). Him being INSIDE the Capitol is evidence of his guilt. That the police were escorting him to an exit is not exculpatory in any sense. Absurd bull**** these right wing media shovel to their duped audience. Are right wing viewers really this dumb? Do they not understand law and evidence?

 

[Twilight Hue]

No one should have been trashing our capital building! .............

But It’s really strange that the horned moron wasn’t tackled and tasered!

On that I agree.

The capital was far too easily breached. It almost appears they were 'allowed' to do it

 

[F1fan]

Even the proud boys seemed like they were running on a lean mixture, too, although they didn't seem to have any real plan either, other than to just cause mayhem.

It seems the only question left is whether this was just a one-off thing or if there might be similar plans in the future. January 2025 is just around the corner, and I'm sure no one wants a repeat of the 2021 fiasco.

I think that depends on how desperate Trump becomes as he faces indictments, and likely lower poll numbers. I have a sort of fascination with this whole MAGA phenomenon, including how FOX has been caught being complicit with Trump to further the right wing agenda. Trump has thus far been the worst of the anti-democracy group, and willing to lie in any way knowing his followers will believe it. I'd like to think they all got a wake up call for doing illegal acts for him, but we can't underestimate their gullibility and stupity.

 

[F1fan]

On that I agree.

The capital was far too easily breached. It almost appears they were 'allowed' to do it

Yup, by Trump and his co-conspirators. Of course the mob had to attack and injure hundreds of police officers, first.

 

[Estro Felino]

Finally some good common sense and great dialogue. A great difference than the volatile commentaries that I have been dealing with, so i thank you. I think I will ignore the other comments at this time.

Yes, it could have been an attempted insurrection but a very poorly executed effort. There was hardly enough arms to make that happen.

Just curious, what do you think of the denial of extra help before the attempt happened?

EDIT: Just found this

exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20

seems more like a few rag tag radical people that sucked in a ton of innocent people

It's impossible.
Because American citizens are sensible. You can't succeed in making a revolution, unless you are backed by the army.
History teaches this.

It was no attempted coup. It is more credible that some "undercovers and shills" boycotted the peaceful protest in order to defame the entire "Movement for the Truth". A movement who has never claimed the election was stolen, but has demanded the proper investigations.
Which would have probably ascertained the absence of frauds.

 

[Estro Felino]

Let's not forget that some officers committed suicide.
You commit suicide when you feel guilty.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think that it's an old strategy.
When the Deep State is desperate, and knows that the crowd is right, they prepare something to destroy the crowd's reputation.
They use their shills to stir things up, so to taint all protesters with the same brush.

You think those Jan 6 muppets are 'the crowd'?
Eesh.
No.
I have a higher opinion of Americans.

 

[Estro Felino]

You think those Jan 6 muppets are 'the crowd'?
Eesh.
No.
I have a higher opinion of Americans.

They are a minority, of course.

 

[Ponder This]

Forget "conspiracy" -- more like "Just what was really going on here?"

What happened is that Chansley had the audacity to shout obscenities in the Senate Chamber, to sit in Mike Pence's seat there, and to refuse multiple requests from the police that he leave. Also, he also went all-out on the cosplay, used a bullhorn, and carried a U.S. flag.
Who would you choose to follow around the capitol building if you were a police officer?

 

[Kenny]

I try to measure all of this within the background of what's been happening in the country overall these past several years. Admittedly, some of that can get confused within the cacophony of different news sources, different politicians, different pundits - all speaking at once and not really listening to what anyone else is saying. The matter has been pretty well covered and investigated, so there's very little I can add to what has already been stated by those more knowledgeable than myself. Although I have observed that there still remain sharp differences of opinion over the election of 2020 (as well as the election of 2022) and the events of January 6, 2021.

Wow! There is absolutely nothing I can add to this! Concise and precise.

I've heard some people talk about civil war. I don't think such a thing could actually happen, at least not a shooting war. But a war of rhetoric, a kind of internal political "cold war" seems underway. It's not about complaining about a possible crooked election - even if it was crooked (although I don't believe it was). I would observe that the people who seem to gravitate towards Trump and believe that he should have continued as President are operating on a completely different wavelength. I think they're frustrated by the changing demographics and the changing political scene in America, and they want America to be back the way things used to be. For right or wrong, that's my opinion about what's going on and why some of those people might have been so upset at the prospect of Trump no longer being President.

Again, I think you have nailed it. Frankly, I think the more people try to tear down Trump, the more people will tend to gravitate to him (for right or wrong). It cements their position of "If they hate him so much, he must be doing something right".

Of course, people who are predisposed towards that are also vulnerable to even more agitation - and that's why some people have a certain antipathy towards Fox News (as well as Fox Radio, which has a local affiliate in my area). Some people have identified them as agitators, directing their message at a population which is economically insecure, somewhat disaffected, and generally dissatisfied with the state of affairs in the country. If they genuinely believed that there was some kind of election fraud taking place, and if they also believed that there was some kind of insidious communist plot to take over the government, then they might be compelled to try to stop it. Of course, they probably should have stopped and thought before rushing in like a bunch of mad idiots. But they got duped, and many of those who were convicted said as much at their trials.

Here I would add that Fox is simply the balance to MSNBC and CNN with others. People saw those as agitators and so gravitated towards a voice that was different. Both sides, as I look at them, agitate people.

But even despite all of that, there will still remain the underlying political cold war that may plague us for many years to come.

And then there are the political agitators on both sides. I think, basically, the days are gone where two political parties that actually wanted the best for the nations came together to reconcile the differences for the betterment of the nation. For our faith, our last hope is another revival like unto times past. Jesus Revolution was one of them. Of course, within context of my signature.

As to your question about extra help, I think they should have had extra help to defend the Capitol. Of course, people can say it's 20/20 hindsight and someone made a judgment call which turned out to be wrong. It does happen, although I don't know if it proves anything. Nothing can be done about it now except learn from the mistake.

It should be interesting to see what kind of preparations they might be making for January, 2025. No matter who wins the election, I think they're going to make doubly sure to make sure that there are no repeat occurrences of January 6.

Agreed - I always wondered why they didn't release the tapes when the investigation started. It gave the impetus to the thought that it was a kangaroo court.


Hope you have a great day!

 

[Colt]

 

[Revoltingest]

That's a good question. Insurrection requires "armed resistance" and, as far as I know, no weapons were involved. Maybe riot would be more appropriate? Or an "occupy Capitol"?

What do you think?

The definition of "insurrection" doesn't require that the insurrectionists be armed.
Being armed is useful, but not all insurrectionists plan ahead or are competent.
Jan 6 was more than just occupation...it was motivated by the belief that
Biden stole election victory from Trump. It appeared that they tried to
install their Dear Leader.