Jesus Died For Us?

[kai]

now i dont want a load of abuse for saying this but what did he actually do that is so great ? its a genuine question can anyone sort of explain what he did that was so epoch making in say roman judea ?

 

[Dunemeister]

now i dont want a load of abuse for saying this but what did he actually do that is so great ? its a genuine question can anyone sort of explain what he did that was so epoch making in say roman judea ?

If you talk to the pagans of the day, they'd say nothing. If you talk to the Jews of the day, they'd say he was a great deceiver of the people, and we're glad to be rid of him. If you talk to the Christians, they'd say that God has begun to rule his universe in a new way, with Jesus at its head, in such a way as to confirm his previous promises to put an end to evil. The devil and those who follow him have been put on notice that their time is up. In other words, they'd speak about the victory of God over evil.

 

[lilithu]

now i dont want a load of abuse for saying this but what did he actually do that is so great ? its a genuine question can anyone sort of explain what he did that was so epoch making in say roman judea ?

From my pov, he stood up to injustice and inspired others to do the same. That's what was so great. That's what alramed the authorities and got him killed.

Judea was occupied by foreign oppressors, the Romans. And King Herod and the Temple priests were in cahoots with the Romans. They lived in luxury. No one was looking out for the interests of the people. Herod had built a huge temple in which the Jews were to make their sacrifices to God for atonement. And the priests got to determine which animals were "pure" enough to be God-worthy. People came from all over, sometimes from very long distances, and once you get there, you don't want the temple priests to reject your offering so that your trip was in vain. The only way to guarantee that wouldn't happen was to buy the sacrificial animals directly from the temple, which the priests sold at ridiculously jacked up prices. They had a monopoly on salvation.

That is why Jesus over-turned the tables of the money-lenders in the Temple. He was protesting the corruption of the temple system. When Jesus broke bread and poured wine at the "Last Supper" and said, "This is my body and this is my blood," I honestly don't think he meant this it literally and that you should take communion thousands of years later thinking that you are eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus. I think he meant that you don't have to go to the Temple to pay the priests to offer sacrifices for atonement. You can offer bread and wine to God in your own home. By "this is my blood" he meant this is my offering - this represents the blood of the sacrificial animal that I would have given. (Remember, Jesus was Jewish. He wasn't trying to start a new religion, just reform his old one.)

Jesus democratized salvation, made it available to everyone, even if you couldn't afford to pay. So he threatened the religious establishment, and the wealth and power of the priestly caste.

He also instituted a communal system where everyone who joined him shared their wealth with others. (Jesus was a communist!) Indirectly, there are references throughout the gospels of people giving to the poor. That was the work of him and his disciples. And Jesus preached what imo was liberation theology. "The first shall be made last and the last shall be made first." "Blessed are the weak for they shall inherit the earth."

He walked with lepers and prostitutes - the outcasts of society - and did not shun them but instead welcomed them into his community. You'll notice that nowhere within the gospels - within the words attributed to Jesus - is there any mention of homosexuality being a sin. Not from Jesus' lips, ever.

The parable of the Good Samaritan - I think it's full significance is lost on people nowadays. In the time of Jesus, the hearers would have understood that the Samaritans were a group of people who were historically hostile with the Judeans. So a Jewish man is beaten up and left on the side of the road for dead, and two fellow Jews - one of them a rabbi - see him and pass him by. But a Samaritan stops and uses his own time, resources and money to heal the man. That was a radical message. Jesus taught us that everyone - even those we consider to be our enemies - are our neighbors, and worthy of love.

 

[lilithu]

If you talk to the Jews of the day, they'd say he was a great deceiver of the people, and we're glad to be rid of him.

Jesus was Jewish. And his earliest followers were Jewish. The gospels are not about a fight between Jews and Christians. The sooner that fallacy is dispelled the better.

 

[3.14]

Can someone walk me through this whole concept?

If he died for us, why couldn't he lives for us instead?

he wanted to get rid of our sins but at the same time get rid of those annoying taxes so he faked his dead to get out of paying his taxes, o and clean sins and all that

 

[kai]

From my pov, he stood up to injustice and inspired others to do the same. That's what was so great. That's what alramed the authorities and got him killed.

Judea was occupied by foreign oppressors, the Romans. And King Herod and the Temple priests were in cahoots with the Romans. They lived in luxury. No one was looking out for the interests of the people. Herod had built a huge temple in which the Jews were to make their sacrifices to God for atonement. And the priests got to determine which animals were "pure" enough to be God-worthy. People came from all over, sometimes from very long distances, and once you get there, you don't want the temple priests to reject your offering so that your trip was in vain. The only way to guarantee that wouldn't happen was to buy the sacrificial animals directly from the temple, which the priests sold at ridiculously jacked up prices. They had a monopoly on salvation.

That is why Jesus over-turned the tables of the money-lenders in the Temple. He was protesting the corruption of the temple system. When Jesus broke bread and poured wine at the "Last Supper" and said, "This is my body and this is my blood," I honestly don't think he meant this it literally and that you should take communion thousands of years later thinking that you are eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus. I think he meant that you don't have to go to the Temple to pay the priests to offer sacrifices for atonement. You can offer bread and wine to God in your own home. By "this is my blood" he meant this is my offering - this represents the blood of the sacrificial animal that I would have given. (Remember, Jesus was Jewish. He wasn't trying to start a new religion, just reform his old one.)

Jesus democratized salvation, made it available to everyone, even if you couldn't afford to pay. So he threatened the religious establishment, and the wealth and power of the priestly caste.

He also instituted a communal system where everyone who joined him shared their wealth with others. (Jesus was a communist!) Indirectly, there are references throughout the gospels of people giving to the poor. That was the work of him and his disciples. And Jesus preached what imo was liberation theology. "The first shall be made last and the last shall be made first." "Blessed are the weak for they shall inherit the earth."

He walked with lepers and prostitutes - the outcasts of society - and did not shun them but instead welcomed them into his community. You'll notice that nowhere within the gospels - within the words attributed to Jesus - is there any mention of homosexuality being a sin. Not from Jesus' lips, ever.

The parable of the Good Samaritan - I think it's full significance is lost on people nowadays. In the time of Jesus, the hearers would have understood that the Samaritans were a group of people who were historically hostile with the Judeans. So a Jewish man is beaten up and left on the side of the road for dead, and two fellow Jews - one of them a rabbi - see him and pass him by. But a Samaritan stops and uses his own time, resources and money to heal the man. That was a radical message. Jesus taught us that everyone - even those we consider to be our enemies - are our neighbors, and worthy of love.

great post , but do you really think he was that much different(leaving out the son of god thing for a minute ) than any of previous Hebrew prophets, living austerely, challenging sinful rulers, calling for repentence and promising God's justice.

As for the Samaritan story, my jewish friends say that that particular parable was changed from the priest the levite and the israelite by christians.

I am left wondering if you take out the miracles was he any different than say john the baptist for example. judaism at the time was far from a monolithic block of religion there were many factions and sub groups, John himself was worshipped for centuries after his death.

 

[trinity2359]

Why Jesus died for us?
Well, GOD, creator of the Universe, sustainer of all Life and almighty Judge died. That's a big deal. Because of His infinite sacrafice, all sins , past, present and future have been paid for, if we only ask. It is only because He died, we have the opportunity to live forever. If He didn't die, then all things would be in vain. Therefore, His death is the main emphasis.
In Catholic Liturgy we say "Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again" during the Eucharist prayer to acknowledge the grace available in all these acts of God.

 

[blackout]

He's alive in my heart..I bring Him shame..But He lives in my heart..

Love

Dallas

No sweetheart. really you don't.
We shame ourselves,
and really it is a shame.

~Vi~

 

[blackout]

He did both. He lived his life as an example of how we should live. And that got him in trouble with the authorities, which got him killed.

I don't believe that Jesus died as a sacrifice for our sins. He died the way that Gandhi and King died. They did not choose to die, but they chose to live for justice and love, full well knowing that it might cause their deaths. In that respect, they died for us.

No, I'm not Christian, but I know many Christians who would say the same thing. It was Jesus' message and example - ie, his life - that was/is salvific, not his death. If he had lived and taught to a ripe old age, as the Buddha did, and was not crucified, he would still be the Christ.

That's pretty much exactly how I see it lilithu,
and how i saw it at the end when I was still hanging to shreds of christianity.
Since christianity will not tolerate this interpretation
I finally realized it was usesless to hold onto a title
that did not fit me at all.

 

[Father Heathen]

Fascinating. I once heard a kid make the same argument to his parents.

Hardly comparable and irrelevant.

 

[Dunemeister]

Jesus was Jewish. And his earliest followers were Jewish. The gospels are not about a fight between Jews and Christians. The sooner that fallacy is dispelled the better.

It remains a fact that the Jewish leadership of the day accused and convicted Jesus of blasphemy. That was the reason they sought to kill Jesus -- he was spewing blasphemy, according to them.

 

[Dunemeister]

great post , but do you really think he was that much different(leaving out the son of god thing for a minute ) than any of previous Hebrew prophets, living austerely, challenging sinful rulers, calling for repentence and promising God's justice.

Much in every way. No other prophet, as far as I know, claimed to be and to do for Israel what only God could do. He claimed to be able to forgive sins personally, something only God was supposed to be able to do. If need be, I can provide other examples, but this one's pretty central.

 

[logician]

Why do sins need to be forgiven by an external entity?

 

[Dunemeister]

The offender requires forgiveness from the one offended. Since we bear the image of God, whenever we sin, we not only offend the person, we also offend the one in whose image the victim was made.

 

[lilithu]

great post , but do you really think he was that much different(leaving out the son of god thing for a minute ) than any of previous Hebrew prophets, living austerely, challenging sinful rulers, calling for repentence and promising God's justice.

I don't see Jesus as particularly different from the previous Jewish prophets. I think he comes directly out of the Jewish prophetic tradition - a tradition that Dr. King continued and that Unitarian Universalists try to continue. The most significant difference is that the previous Jewish prophets were for the Jews, whereas Jesus has been made into a prophet for everyone.

As for the Samaritan story, my jewish friends say that that particular parable was changed from the priest the levite and the israelite by christians.

Is there evidence for such a claim? I do acknowledge that some of the stories in the gospels were written with an anti-semitic bent. But I don't think that the identity of the do-gooder was changed to a Samaritan for anti-semitic reasons. As I said, his Samaritan identity makes the story even more meaningful. Remember that this parable was told as an answer to the question: "who is my neighbor?" By making the hero a Samaritan, Jesus was specifically telling his Jewish audience that your neighbor isn't just the people who are like you - fellow Jews - rather, even those whom you would consider an adversary are your neighbors. He expanded the circle.

I am left wondering if you take out the miracles was he any different than say john the baptist for example. judaism at the time was far from a monolithic block of religion there were many factions and sub groups, John himself was worshipped for centuries after his death.

That may be. But I don't know of John the Baptist walking with prostitutes, lepers, tax collectors and other social outcasts. I don't know of John the Baptist preaching about the meek inheriting the earth. The stories that I know are of Jesus, and imo they show a great prophet.

One can speculate that there were others who were just as great or even greater but it's just speculation. And yes, I am aware that one can argue that we don't even know whether Jesus even existed, etc. From my pov I find all those arguments to be tiresome. It's evident to me that the stories have great spiritual value and it's simply easier to believe that they came from one source, a man named Jesus of Nazareth. If other people want to argue about the "facts," so be it. I will focus on the stories - the teachings that he gave and the example that he set.

 

[lilithu]

It remains a fact that the Jewish leadership of the day accused and convicted Jesus of blasphemy. That was the reason they sought to kill Jesus -- he was spewing blasphemy, according to them.

Kinda like John Calvin burning Michael Servetus at the stake. Kinda like the Spanish Inquisition. Kinda like the burning of accused witches in England. I could go on...

 

[lunamoth]

Can someone walk me through this whole concept?

If he died for us, why couldn't he lives for us instead?

He lived, and died, and lived for us. The salvation is in a love so powerful it conquers even death. Thus, the Resurrection.

 

[kai]

I don't see Jesus as particularly different from the previous Jewish prophets. I think he comes directly out of the Jewish prophetic tradition - a tradition that Dr. King continued and that Unitarian Universalists try to continue. The most significant difference is that the previous Jewish prophets were for the Jews, whereas Jesus has been made into a prophet for everyone

.

Did Jesus really do that or was that a later idea of the church fathers to include the gentiles it seems an amazing turnaround
"Go not into the way of the Gentiles....but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:7)

Is there evidence for such a claim? I do acknowledge that some of the stories in the gospels were written with an anti-semitic bent. But I don't think that the identity of the do-gooder was changed to a Samaritan for anti-semitic reasons. As I said, his Samaritan identity makes the story even more meaningful. Remember that this parable was told as an answer to the question: "who is my neighbor?" By making the hero a Samaritan, Jesus was specifically telling his Jewish audience that your neighbor isn't just the people who are like you - fellow Jews - rather, even those whom you would consider an adversary are your neighbors. He expanded the circle.

Oh its not anti Semitic ,as such its more pro gentile ,its original form was about a Jewish caste system of priests ,non priest levites and the ordinary Israelite.

That may be. But I don't know of John the Baptist walking with prostitutes, lepers, tax collectors and other social outcasts. I don't know of John the Baptist preaching about the meek inheriting the earth. The stories that I know are of Jesus, and imo they show a great prophet

.
drawn by his strong and winning personality, went out to him; the austerity of his life added immensely to the weight of his words; for the simple folk, he was truly a prophet (Matthew 11:9; cf. Luke 1:76, 77). "Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 3:2), such was the burden of his teaching. Men of all conditions flocked round him.


One can speculate that there were others who were just as great or even greater but it's just speculation. And yes, I am aware that one can argue that we don't even know whether Jesus even existed, etc. From my pov I find all those arguments to be tiresome. It's evident to me that the stories have great spiritual value and it's simply easier to believe that they came from one source, a man named Jesus of Nazareth. If other people want to argue about the "facts," so be it. I will focus on the stories - the teachings that he gave and the example that he set.

I have always speculated that the teachings of Jesus were a continuous tradition not started by him. john the baptist is a fascinating figure as the "Precursor" I argue not i just think that to understand the life of Jesus as presented in the Gospels, we need to learn about the wide variety of different Jewish groups that existed in the first century.

 

[kai]

Much in every way. No other prophet, as far as I know, claimed to be and to do for Israel what only God could do. He claimed to be able to forgive sins personally, something only God was supposed to be able to do. If need be, I can provide other examples, but this one's pretty central.

ok i get that it was a big thing to claim, but only to a jew, not to the people living on the british isles in say 27 AD, so you have to either beleive he was the son of god or i cant see he was much different than many other jewish prophets wandering around judea teaching new ways of looking at an old religion

 

[Don Penguinoini]

He lived, and died, and lived for us. The salvation is in a love so powerful it conquers even death. Thus, the Resurrection.

Who is this us? Resurrection, you think he died and came back to lfie magically?