Jesus in Heaven is not God

[Colt]

Jesus said he would send ANOTHER advocate …

Does ‘Another’ mean ‘the same one’ to you?

Ordinarily that would be a logical, rational question. However, Jesus of Nazareth was no ordinary person! He was a miraculous individual, a divine celestial being incarnate from heaven in human form.

With that in mind, while still in the flesh Jesus is saying that once he returns to heaven, he will poor out his spirit upon all mankind, all disciples of truth. Lets again consider what he said:

“I still have many things to say to you,but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He,the Spirit of truth, has come,He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine.

These are profound truths being spoken which made more since once Jesus had returned to heaven!

 

[Colt]

‘I’ and ‘He’ are the same person?

Again, using the rational human mind the question is legitimate on face value!

Returning again to the words of Jesus now that he has laid down his human form and retuned to his rightful place in heaven:

Jesus the Way to the Father​

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

 

[amazing grace]

Btw, it would have been a translation first from Aramaic to Greek then to English.

Jesus explained that it was actually to the benefit of his followers that he return to the spirit world from whence he came because his spiritual presence within the family of God could continue to guide and teach.

[12] I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. [13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I and he, the spirit of truth, is the same person in hindsight. It’s the presence of the voice of the shepherd.

16) . . And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot receive because it neither sees him (it) nor knows him (it). You know him (it), for he (it) dwells with you and will be in you. . . 20) In that day you will know that I am IN my Father, and you IN me, and I IN you. . . 23) If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. . . . 25) These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he (it) will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. . . If anyone loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14)
(15:26) But when the Helper comes, whom (which) I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who (which) proceeds from the Father, he (it) will bear witness about me.
16:13) When the Spirit of truth comes, he (it) will guide you into all the truth for he (it) will guide you into all the truth for he (it) will not speak on his (its) own authority, but whatever he (it) hears he (it) will speak, and he (it) will declare to you the things that are to come.
Romans 8:16, 17) The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God, and if children, then heirs----heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ . . .

God IN Christ, Christ IN us comes to dwell in us via the gift of holy spirit. That gift allows those who are born again of the Spirit to hear from God and Christ to lead us and guide us into all truth and in our spiritual walk.

Again, we are on opposite ends of the spectrum which is inevitable with our positions concerning a triune God.

 

[amazing grace]

It was GOD, who is the Father, who poured out HIS SPIRIT onto those in the upper room in the firm of tongues of fire and high wind. It was done THROUGH Jesus Christ in terms of a ‘deliverer’: Jesus Christ DELIVERED the GIFT FROM THE FATHER, as it says in Acts 2:33:

• ‘Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.’ (Acts 2:33)

A mailman DELIVERS what has been given to him from the owner of the gift that is sent:

1. OWNER/SENDER
2. DELIVERER
3. RECEIVER

I may have said it differently but I don't believe that I said anything different - But the Comforter (helper, advocate), which is the Holy Ghost, whom (os - who, which, what, that) the Father will send in my name, he (it) shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. [John 14:26] In this context the comforter is the promise of the Father which Jesus poured out on the day of Pentecost.

The Spirit of God was IN Christ and Christ is IN us thus the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwell in us via the gift of holy spirit. (Romans 8:9-11)

 

[Colt]

16) . . And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot receive because it neither sees him (it) nor knows him (it). You know him (it), for he (it) dwells with you and will be in you. . . 20) In that day you will know that I am IN my Father, and you IN me, and I IN you. . . 23) If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. . . . 25) These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he (it) will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. . . If anyone loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14)
(15:26) But when the Helper comes, whom (which) I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who (which) proceeds from the Father, he (it) will bear witness about me.
16:13) When the Spirit of truth comes, he (it) will guide you into all the truth for he (it) will guide you into all the truth for he (it) will not speak on his (its) own authority, but whatever he (it) hears he (it) will speak, and he (it) will declare to you the things that are to come.
Romans 8:16, 17) The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God, and if children, then heirs----heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ . . .

God IN Christ, Christ IN us comes to dwell in us via the gift of holy spirit. That gift allows those who are born again of the Spirit to hear from God and Christ to lead us and guide us into all truth and in our spiritual walk.

Again, we are on opposite ends of the spectrum which is inevitable with our positions concerning a triune God.

You continue to make the case for the Jews rejection of God on earth in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

I have NEVER claimed that Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity, I believe he is a creation of the Trinity from the eternal past.

All divine Sons of the Father are indistinguishably God. When our Creator Son came to earth in the person of Jesus of Nazareth then we were as close to seeing the Father as mankind ever was.

 

[amazing grace]

You continue to make the case for the Jews rejection of God on earth in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

All Jews rejected "God on earth in the person of Jesus of Nazareth" because Jesus of Nazareth was not God.
All Jews did not reject Jesus as the Messiah - I showed you before where many Jews believed.

I have NEVER claimed that Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity, I believe he is a creation of the Trinity from the eternal past.

But you do believe he is a creation of the Trinity . . . not much difference that I can see.

All divine Sons of the Father are indistinguishably God. When our Creator Son came to earth in the person of Jesus of Nazareth then we were as close to seeing the Father as mankind ever was.

The sons of God, i.e. angels are not God. Those of us that have become sons of God through the new birth are not God.
Jesus of Nazareth was sent to declare God, his Father and he did just that. He was the perfect representation of God, his Father so much so that he could say "when you have seen me, you have seen the Father" - not that he was God Himself, but God's begotten Son sent to do his Father's work and bring salvation to mankind.

 

[Soapy]

Ordinarily that would be a logical, rational question. However, Jesus of Nazareth was no ordinary person! He was a miraculous individual, a divine celestial being incarnate from heaven in human form.

With that in mind, while still in the flesh Jesus is saying that once he returns to heaven, he will poor out his spirit upon all mankind, all disciples of truth. Lets again consider what he said:

“I still have many things to say to you,but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He,the Spirit of truth, has come,He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine.

These are profound truths being spoken which made more since once Jesus had returned to heaven!

Jesus does not ever say that he will pour out his spirit upon mankind. All scriptures on the matter say that it is GOD:The Father who pours out HIS SPIRIT on mankind:

• ““’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.” (Acts 2:17)
• “I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high [which is to say, ‘power from the Father’ ]” (Luke 24:49)
• “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am YAHWEH your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed. And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.” (Joel 2:27-28)

YAHWEH GOD: The Father, poured out his spirit onto believers … It was and is not Jesus Christ.

God poured out his spirit onto Jesus at Jesus’ baptism… God poured out his spirit onto the apostles at Pentecost … and God will pour out his spirit again onto all true believers - do you, Colt, want to be such a one who is so blessed as to be empowered by the spirit of God?

I know you are being facetious but … really??? You need to stop now for your own spirit sake!!!

 

[Colt]

All Jews rejected "God on earth in the person of Jesus of Nazareth" because Jesus of Nazareth was not God.
All Jews did not reject Jesus as the Messiah - I showed you before where many Jews believed.

But you do believe he is a creation of the Trinity . . . not much difference that I can see.

The sons of God, i.e. angels are not God. Those of us that have become sons of God through the new birth are not God.
Jesus of Nazareth was sent to declare God, his Father and he did just that. He was the perfect representation of God, his Father so much so that he could say "when you have seen me, you have seen the Father" - not that he was God Himself, but God's begotten Son sent to do his Father's work and bring salvation to

Ascending into heaven with all power and authority seated at the right hand of the Father is a lot different than human that I can see.

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus does not ever say that he will pour out his spirit upon mankind. All scriptures on the matter say that it is GOD:The Father who pours out HIS SPIRIT on mankind:

• ““’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.” (Acts 2:17)
• “I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high [which is to say, ‘power from the Father’ ]” (Luke 24:49)
• “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am YAHWEH your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed. And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.” (Joel 2:27-28)

YAHWEH GOD: The Father, poured out his spirit onto believers … It was and is not Jesus Christ.

God poured out his spirit onto Jesus at Jesus’ baptism… God poured out his spirit onto the apostles at Pentecost … and God will pour out his spirit again onto all true believers - do you, Colt, want to be such a one who is so blessed as to be empowered by the spirit of God?

I know you are being facetious but … really??? You need to stop now for your own spirit sake!!!

What was poured out on the day of Pentecost? What was Peter talking about when he said: Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he (Jesus) has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. Acts 2:33

 

[Colt]

Jesus does not ever say that he will pour out his spirit upon mankind. All scriptures on the matter say that it is GOD:The Father who pours out HIS SPIRIT on mankind:

• ““’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.” (Acts 2:17)
• “I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high [which is to say, ‘power from the Father’ ]” (Luke 24:49)
• “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am YAHWEH your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed. And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.” (Joel 2:27-28)

YAHWEH GOD: The Father, poured out his spirit onto believers … It was and is not Jesus Christ.

God poured out his spirit onto Jesus at Jesus’ baptism… God poured out his spirit onto the apostles at Pentecost … and God will pour out his spirit again onto all true believers - do you, Colt, want to be such a one who is so blessed as to be empowered by the spirit of God?

I know you are being facetious but … really??? You need to stop now for your own spirit sake!!!

The spirit of the father was already here, the spirit of Jesus was something new, the spirit of the Father and Jesus.

 

[Soapy]

What was poured out on the day of Pentecost? What was Peter talking about when he said: Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he (Jesus) has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. Acts 2:33

The Spirit that was poured out on the people in the upper room at Pentecost was the promise of the Father. Jesus told the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until that event took place:

• “I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.” (Luke 25:49)

The spirit that was poured out was FROM THE FATHER… Jesus ONLY SENT IT ONTO THEM.

That’s why I gave the analogy of a Mailman deliver a gift. The gift is (let’s say) from a child’s Father. Is the mailman the GIVER of the gift… or just the one who delivers it?

 

[amazing grace]

The Spirit that was poured out on the people in the upper room at Pentecost was the promise of the Father. Jesus told the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until that event took place:

• “I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.” (Luke 25:49)

The spirit that was poured out was FROM THE FATHER… Jesus ONLY SENT IT ONTO THEM.

That’s why I gave the analogy of a Mailman deliver a gift. The gift is (let’s say) from a child’s Father. Is the mailman the GIVER of the gift… or just the one who delivers it?

We agree - sometimes your wording confuses me! LOL!

 

[Soapy]

We agree - sometimes your wording confuses me! LOL!

Jesus’ words were often confusing to the Jews, also. Yet those words were fully righteous. Witness the conversation with Nicodemus. And other Jews who thought ‘of the flesh’ yet Jesus was speaking ‘of theSpirit’… Jesus was flabbergasted by their lack of understanding:

• ‘Why do you not understand my mode of speech?’

But it’s good that you can see the truth in the end unlike those who never see or do not desire to see the truth.

 

[Muffled]

Did Jesus ever laugh?

No! Laughter is 90% at the expense of grave errors and dilemmas made by the person being laughed at, which is exactly the case in which I was laughing…

The other 10% is a nervous psychological act brought on unconsciously - like someone with Turrets syndrome.

I do much desired for you to acknowledge and speak the truth.

But, anyway, …Moving on…!

Ps 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.

 

[Soapy]

Ps 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.

You know that such words are saying exactky what I said…. So thank you!!

Jesus is never said to laugh at anyone nor any situation in which we, with our misguided feelings, might laugh at. And in the case of the verse you quoted, the author is simply applying misplaced human emotions to a righteous and holy God.

(Of course, in reality, God never laughs - God never derides his creation such that he laughs at their frailties.

Would you laugh at a disabled person struggling to do things right?

 

[Colt]

Ps 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.

Humor can be an antidote for taking ourselves too seriously. Im sure that the Son of God incarnate had a keen sense of humor.

 

[Soapy]

Humor can be an antidote for taking ourselves too seriously. Im sure that the Son of God incarnate had a keen sense of humor.

I’m pretty sure that the almighty God takes himself absolutely seriously.

 

[Colt]

I’m pretty sure that the almighty God takes himself absolutely seriously.

God invented humor.

 

[Betho_br]

In John 3:13, the phrase "is in heaven" plays a significant role in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. The verse is a part of the New Testament and has variations in different textual traditions, particularly the Byzantine and Alexandrian traditions.

The Byzantine Textual Tradition, also known as the Textus Receptus, presents John 3:13 as follows:
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

In this rendering, the phrase "even the Son of man which is in heaven" suggests that at the very moment Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, He was both on Earth and in heaven. This interpretation underscores the divine nature of Jesus and His unique relationship with heaven.

The Alexandrian Textual Tradition, on the other hand, often presents John 3:13 without the phrase "which is in heaven." This version reads as follows:
"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."

In the Alexandrian tradition, the emphasis is on the divine origin of Jesus as the one who descended from heaven, with less focus on His simultaneous presence in heaven at the time of the conversation.

The difference in wording between these two traditions can be attributed to variations in ancient manuscripts and textual transmission. These differences have implications for theological interpretations of the nature of Jesus and the extent of His divine presence. It's important to note that these variations do not fundamentally alter the core teachings of Christianity but may influence how specific passages are understood within different theological contexts.

 

[Soapy]

In John 3:13, the phrase "is in heaven" plays a significant role in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. The verse is a part of the New Testament and has variations in different textual traditions, particularly the Byzantine and Alexandrian traditions.

The Byzantine Textual Tradition, also known as the Textus Receptus, presents John 3:13 as follows:
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

In this rendering, the phrase "even the Son of man which is in heaven" suggests that at the very moment Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, He was both on Earth and in heaven. This interpretation underscores the divine nature of Jesus and His unique relationship with heaven.

The Alexandrian Textual Tradition, on the other hand, often presents John 3:13 without the phrase "which is in heaven." This version reads as follows:
"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."

In the Alexandrian tradition, the emphasis is on the divine origin of Jesus as the one who descended from heaven, with less focus on His simultaneous presence in heaven at the time of the conversation.

The difference in wording between these two traditions can be attributed to variations in ancient manuscripts and textual transmission. These differences have implications for theological interpretations of the nature of Jesus and the extent of His divine presence. It's important to note that these variations do not fundamentally alter the core teachings of Christianity but may influence how specific passages are understood within different theological contexts.

Er, No…. The declaration about ‘son of man in Heaven’ actually goes to show that it is a crafted trinitarian verse.

Jesus was not ever in Heaven until he was raised up there by the Father after Jesus had acquired an immortal body (note that the spirit is always immortal - Meaning that it CANNOT DIE - BUT CAN BE DESTROYED)

Also, taken literally, the claim is that Jesus was a SON OF MAN who CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN…. Meaning he was already a Human Being BEFORE being born as a human Being through the woman, Mary (the virgin)!!!

And, of course, that is totally absurd - so much so that even the most hardened trinitarian would agree it is false!!