Jesus in Heaven is not God

[amazing grace]

Right, If the Human part of the human/divine person of Jesus bore witness then it wouldn't work. While on earth as a human the Son of God always defaulted to the will of the Father as the drama played out. At time Jesus spoke as a human and at other times by divine right. The miraculous person of Jesus could self-limit his divinity.

Your response holds a lot of supposition. I don't believe that Jesus was divided into parts - one part man and one part God. I believe he was human in every way just as we are. It was God, his Father that worked in and through him to perform the works he performed.

It is too clear that scripture consistently preserves a clear line of separation between God and Jesus. Jesus is clearly delineated as a man in scripture and that would seem to disqualify him from being God - for God is not a man.

 

[amazing grace]

double response

 

[Will Due]

If Jesus is God, then there would only be one to bear witness and it would be Jesus, i.e. God alone bearing witness, but Jesus said - If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true.
He also said "Not that the testimony that I receive is from man . . ."
Maybe I should have bolded the point: "But the testimony I have is greater than that of John. . . . The Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me."

God the Father and God the Son are not the same person. Just like with all fathers and sons.
The Father and the Son both bear witness because they both dwell within us.

"The kingdom of God is within you."

 

[Jimmy]

Jesus is just a symbol of the true, living, chosen one.

 

[amazing grace]

God the Father and God the Son are not the same person. Just like with all fathers and sons.
The Father and the Son both bear witness because they both dwell within us.

"The kingdom of God is within you."

Where is the title "God the Son" in scripture?

Yes, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwell in those who believe. I don't believe that what you are implying is applicable to the context of the verses in John 5. The context clearly states that Jesus doesn't testify of himself alone - that John came to testify of him but he had someone greater than John - that being God his Father.

 

[Will Due]

Can anyone, in sincere honesty and righteousness, still claim that Jesus is ‘God’?

Yes, certainly because it makes total sense that the person who created the universe and all of us humans who live in it, would eventually desire to experience living the life we live exactly like we do.

"Jesus was God and man—always and even forevermore. And this God and this man were, and now are, one, even as the Paradise Trinity of three beings is in reality one Deity."
- The Urantia Book

The most significant thing about this in my opinion, is that he who created us and the universe we live in, was willing enough to actually live with us, in order to show us the way.

 

[Will Due]

Where is the title "God the Son" in scripture?

I'm not sure where the title "God the Son" is in scripture. But I think generically it's understood to be referring to the second person of the Paradise Trinity which consists of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.

 

[amazing grace]

I'm not sure where the title "God the Son" is in scripture. But I think generically it's understood to be referring to the second person of the Paradise Trinity which consists of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.

Because it's not in there neither is the word "trinity" nor the term God-man nor the phrase "dual nature".

 

[Colt]

Your response holds a lot of supposition. I don't believe that Jesus was divided into parts - one part man and one part God. I believe he was human in every way just as we are. It was God, his Father that worked in and through him to perform the works he performed.

It is too clear that scripture consistently preserves a clear line of separation between God and Jesus. Jesus is clearly delineated as a man in scripture and that would seem to disqualify him from being God - for God is not a man.

True, in humility the Son always credits his Father for the powers he has.

After returning from the death of his human form Jesus is now suddenly appearing in locked rooms and vanishing, just like Gabriel when he appeared to Mary or the 3 celestials that appeared to Abraham at Mamre.

 

[Will Due]

Because it's not in there neither is the word "trinity" nor the term God-man nor the phrase "dual nature".

Well if Jesus wasn't God, how did so many get healed in his presence?

 

[amazing grace]

Well if Jesus wasn't God, how did so many get healed in his presence?

Scripture explains that -

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, John 10:25
Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” John 10:32
If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” John 10:37,38
Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did THROUGH him in your midst, as you yourselves know— Acts 2:22

All the things Jesus did was because God was IN him and working through him. The apostles also accomplished many miraculous things but no one ever says that because they did they had to be God.

 

[amazing grace]

True, in humility the Son always credits his Father for the powers he has.

After returning from the death of his human form Jesus is now suddenly appearing in locked rooms and vanishing, just like Gabriel when he appeared to Mary or the 3 celestials that appeared to Abraham at Mamre.

He credits God his Father because it was by the power of God his Father that he did what he did. If Jesus is God then it would be God giving credit to himself for that power and I don't think that's humility.

Yes, in his resurrected body of flesh and bone - the new spiritual body given to him by God when God raised him from the dead - he is able to do things that he couldn't do before. We also will receive a new spiritual body upon our resurrection. Jesus is not an angel.

 

[Will Due]

All the things Jesus did was because God was IN him and working through him.

Well since that's true for him, then it's true for all of us. As far as we allow him.

 

[Colt]

He credits God his Father because it was by the power of God his Father that he did what he did. If Jesus is God then it would be God giving credit to himself for that power and I don't think that's humility.

Yes, in his resurrected body of flesh and bone - the new spiritual body given to him by God when God raised him from the dead - he is able to do things that he couldn't do before. We also will receive a new spiritual body upon our resurrection. Jesus is not an angel.

The Son of God who existed from the eternal past would always credit God the Father. Jesus lived by example.

Jesus returned from the death of his temporary mortal body on his own as he said he could and would. God the Son can do that because he never died.

No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

 

[amazing grace]

The Son of God who existed from the eternal past would always credit God the Father. Jesus lived by example.

Jesus returned from the death of his temporary mortal body on his own as he said he could and would. God the Son can do that because he never died.

No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

The Son of God who came into existence as all humans do by birth lived a life that was well-pleasing to God his Father - always doing the will of Him who sent him and by the power of God IN him he accomplished the work that God gave him to do and always gave the glory to God his Father.

I, myself, would be hesitant to build a doctrine on a couple of verses when there are many clear verses that say God the Father raised him from the dead. (Acts 4:10, 13:30,34; Rom. 4:24, 6:4, 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12; 1 Thess. 1:10; 1 Peter 1:21

 

[Colt]

The Son of God who came into existence as all humans do by birth lived a life that was well-pleasing to God his Father - always doing the will of Him who sent him and by the power of God IN him he accomplished the work that God gave him to do and always gave the glory to God his Father.

I, myself, would be hesitant to build a doctrine on a couple of verses when there are many clear verses that say God the Father raised him from the dead. (Acts 4:10, 13:30,34; Rom. 4:24, 6:4, 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12; 1 Thess. 1:10; 1 Peter 1:21

My belief comes from what Jesus himself said and did rather than defaulting to secondary characterizations. It’s a funny thing, when convenient people ignore Jesus and make Petter or Paul the Word made flesh?

Being God on earth, for men to say “God raised him” would be synonymous with the Son incarnate reappearing 3 days after his voluntary death and in a new form. For God to take on the human form and dwell among us anonymously for 30+ years, put the Israelites and Romans on trial, lay down his human form and return to surprise his followers, such a difficult thing to understand would result in exactly what we have in the Gospels.

It’s much more than a few verses, it’s the totality of his life and his presence in spirit.

 

[amazing grace]

My belief comes from what Jesus himself said and did rather than defaulting to secondary characterizations. It’s a funny thing, when convenient people ignore Jesus and make Petter or Paul the Word made flesh?

Being God on earth, for men to say “God raised him” would be synonymous with the Son incarnate reappearing 3 days after his voluntary death and in a new form. For God to take on the human form and dwell among us anonymously for 30+ years, put the Israelites and Romans on trial, lay down his human form and return to surprise his followers, such a difficult thing to understand would result in exactly what we have in the Gospels.

It’s much more than a few verses, it’s the totality of his life and his presence in spirit.

The whole of scripture is God's word. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Jesus said he had the authority to raise it up again and by whose authority? God his Father. No where else in scripture does it read that "Jesus raised himself from the dead". Jesus knew his Father would raise him up because of this prophecy - "For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your Holy One see corruption." That was his authority, his affirmation that he would be raised by God his Father from the dead.

God says of Himself that He is not a man. Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32; Hosea 11:9 What you are proclaiming to be true is not in scripture.
If Jesus is God, who is his God?

 

[Colt]

The whole of scripture is God's word. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Jesus said he had the authority to raise it up again and by whose authority? God his Father. No where else in scripture does it read that "Jesus raised himself from the dead". Jesus knew his Father would raise him up because of this prophecy - "For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your Holy One see corruption." That was his authority, his affirmation that he would be raised by God his Father from the dead.

God says of Himself that He is not a man. Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32; Hosea 11:9 What you are proclaiming to be true is not in scripture.
If Jesus is God, who is his God?

*** When the Father brought the Son of God into being in the eternal past, before this world was, it was THEN that he was given authority and power in his own right to incarnate and lay down the human form he had taken on. "The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”" <---those are the attributes of a divine being incarnate, not a local carpenter!

The written word is "Inspired" by events and the interpretation of Holy men. God didn't write the Bible, imperfect holy men did.

The Father or (God) of God the Son, is the Universal Father, he was with God in the beginning.

Had you been a sincere Jew living during the times of Jesus then you would have rejected him on the same grounds that you reject his claims about himself now.

 

[amazing grace]

*** When the Father brought the Son of God into being in the eternal past, before this world was, it was THEN that he was given authority and power in his own right to incarnate and lay down the human form he had taken on. "The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”" <---those are the attributes of a divine being incarnate, not a local carpenter!

The written word is "Inspired" by events and the interpretation of Holy men. God didn't write the Bible, imperfect holy men did.

The Father or (God) of God the Son, is the Universal Father, he was with God in the beginning.

Had you been a sincere Jew living during the times of Jesus then you would have rejected him on the same grounds that you reject his claims about himself now.

God brought the Son of God into being "when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." (Gal. 4:4) "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." (1 Peter 1:20) He was known beforehand by God his Father and the Christ; the Messiah was prophesied about throughout the OT.

ALL scripture is God breathed, i.e. inspired by God and "knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

God promised Jesus, "For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption", therefore God raised him from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10)
God was with God in the beginning?
The God of Jesus is also our God; his Father also our Father - "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to MY Father and YOUR Father, to MY God and YOUR God." (John 20:17)

Had I been a sincere Jew living during the times of Jesus then hopefully I would not have been like those unbelieving religious leaders who denied Christ but one of those in the group with Mary - Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him (John 11:45) or the ones with Paul and James - "And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed" (Acts 21:20) or the ones with Jesus - "So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, 'If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples'" (John 8:31) or the ones with Paul and Barnabus - "Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed."(Acts 14:1)

 

[Colt]

God brought the Son of God into being "when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." (Gal. 4:4) "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." (1 Peter 1:20) He was known beforehand by God his Father and the Christ; the Messiah was prophesied about throughout the OT.

ALL scripture is God breathed, i.e. inspired by God and "knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

God promised Jesus, "For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption", therefore God raised him from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10)
God was with God in the beginning?
The God of Jesus is also our God; his Father also our Father - "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to MY Father and YOUR Father, to MY God and YOUR God." (John 20:17)

Had I been a sincere Jew living during the times of Jesus then hopefully I would not have been like those unbelieving religious leaders who denied Christ but one of those in the group with Mary - Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him (John 11:45) or the ones with Paul and James - "And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed" (Acts 21:20) or the ones with Jesus - "So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, 'If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples'" (John 8:31) or the ones with Paul and Barnabus - "Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed."(Acts 14:1)

I'm quoting Jesus, I'm going to stick with his words and deeds.