Jesus in Heaven is not God

[Colt]

Colt is just ‘having a laugh’ by posting devils advocate nonsense and watching us (hopefully for him!) frantically trying to answer with scriptural truth. He’s teasing forum members just for fun!

However, if we have the time, it does provide the ability to develop strength in refuting nonsense claims from others in more serious situations.

But beware that the urge to respond to the nonsense doesn’t lead you to waste time you could be doing something better nor draw you into desperation in saying something incorrect - he’ll jump on that and call you out …!!

I provide scripture to back up my beliefs, scripture that doesn’t require tortured reinterpretation which is the worst kind of nonsense. Jesus meant what he said and didn’t try to correct people who were offended by it.

 

[amazing grace]

That’s a rationalization to fit unbelief.

I don't believe so.

Then it should read, “in the beginning God had a plan.” Problem is it says “He” was with God in the beginning. Jesus also said that he had glory with God before this world was, I am from above etc.

Your disbelief requires dumbing down every reference to preexistence.

Problem is trinitarian bias in translation. All you have to do is look up the word used in John 1:2. outos - compound word from ho meaning this, that, these, etc and autos meaning himself, herself, themselves, itself; he, she, it; the same.

My disbelief is in the ideology that Jesus is God in the flesh but not in the fact that the man, Jesus of Nazereth, is the begotten Son of God, God's anointed, God's Christ/Messiah. The one that did the anointing is not the same as the one being anointed. God did not anoint God.

 

[Colt]

I don't believe so.

Problem is trinitarian bias in translation. All you have to do is look up the word used in John 1:2. outos - compound word from ho meaning this, that, these, etc and autos meaning himself, herself, themselves, itself; he, she, it; the same.

My disbelief is in the ideology that Jesus is God in the flesh but not in the fact that the man, Jesus of Nazereth, is the begotten Son of God, God's anointed, God's Christ/Messiah. The one that did the anointing is not the same as the one being anointed. God did not anoint God.

Jesus wasn’t anointed by God, he didn’t need to be.

 

[Will Due]

Where in scripture does Jesus speak of a real consciousness he had of a pre-existent state?

"Before Abraham was, I am"

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus wasn’t anointed by God, he didn’t need to be.

. . . you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing and healing all who we're oppressed by the devil,, for God was with him.. And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of thre Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree.
[Acts 10:37-39]

. . . You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions. [Heb. 1:9] Jesus is not God - he has a God and that God is His Father, the only true God.

 

[Colt]

. . . you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing and healing all who we're oppressed by the devil,, for God was with him.. And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of thre Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree.
[Acts 10:37-39]

. . . You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions. [Heb. 1:9] Jesus is not God - he has a God and that God is His Father, the only true God.

Those are others expressing opinions about Jesus. His followers wanted Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah.

God on earth in the person of Jesus had innate powers and authority which didn’t require anointing oils or ceremonies.

 

[Soapy]

As I said, John, like Paul, shows gnostic ideas ─ Jesus pre-existing as demiurge and creating the material universe. In the synoptics, Mark is closest to a credible origin for Jesus, while Matthew and Luke, apparently misled by the Septuagint's misleading translation of Isaiah ('virgin' where the original says 'young woman') invent the divine insemination nonsense. Did Jesus really have God's Y-chromosome?

I'm aware of that claim, but on what I presently know, I'm not persuaded that the author of John ever met an historical Jesus, any more than the other authors did.

Ok. I actually should have just said that the author has John glorifying himself as Jesus most loved disciple … Yes, that is much better, thanks.

 

[Soapy]

. . . you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing and healing all who we're oppressed by the devil,, for God was with him.. And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of thre Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree.
[Acts 10:37-39]

. . . You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions. [Heb. 1:9] Jesus is not God - he has a God and that God is His Father, the only true God.

Colts kickback was “Jesus wasn’t anointed by God, he didn’t need to be.”.

But the scriptures and witnesses both say that Jesus was anointed by God… God himself says he would anoint the servant that would be the messiah (and high priest and spiritual king of the Jews):

• Isaiah 42:1
• The anointing at the river Jordan
• ‘The spirit of the LORD is upon me’ speech in the synagogue in Capernaum on the Sabbath

Colt is doing good despite the frustration he thinks he is causing. It is bring to remembrance those things we need to know about Jesus, strengthening our understanding in order to refute his unfounded and misplaced allegations.

A weight lifter increases his strength by putting himself a resistance - so we strengthen our spiritual strength against a satanic resistance!

 

[Colt]

Colts kickback was “Jesus wasn’t anointed by God, he didn’t need to be.”.

But the scriptures and witnesses both say that Jesus was anointed by God… God himself says he would anoint the servant that would be the messiah (and high priest and spiritual king of the Jews):

• Isaiah 42:1
• The anointing at the river Jordan
• ‘The spirit of the LORD is upon me’ speech in the synagogue in Capernaum on the Sabbath

Colt is doing good despite the frustration he thinks he is causing. It is bring to remembrance those things we need to know about Jesus, strengthening our understanding in order to refute his unfounded and misplaced allegations.

A weight lifter increases his strength by putting himself a resistance - so we strengthen our spiritual strength against a satanic resistance!

Isaiah 42:1 is another example of hindsight where the followers of Jesus try to force him into OT scriptures to justify their belief that he was the Messiah.

“This chapter contains a poem known as the first of the "Servant songs" about the servant, whom Jewish tradition holds that Isaiah identifies as either the Israelites themselves (Hebrew: אור לגויים, or l'goyim) or Cyrus (in contrast to Jewish Christian and, thus, later gentileChristian tradition, as well as Islamictradition).

The Jordan is where Jesus inaugurated the beginning of his public work. The Father bears witness to the identity of the Son incarnate, the Father whose spirit was within Jesus spoke those words.

Jesus IS spirit, he is here now. He isn’t a floating space man.

When you can’t win a debate you accuse your opponent of being satanic? Your like minded fellows did that to Jesus!

 

[amazing grace]

Those are others expressing opinions about Jesus. His followers wanted Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah.

God on earth in the person of Jesus had innate powers and authority which didn’t require anointing oils or ceremonies.

Yep, in Acts it was Peter, but he wasn't just expressing his opinion - he was an eyewitness. Jesus was anointed at his baptism. Jesus is God's Messiah, the Lord's Christ.

God did not come down to earth - God or gods coming down to earth is a pagan belief. Jesus did not have "innate powers and authority" - scripture says that God did the mighty works and wonders and signs through him.

In Jewish culture (OT), it takes two or three witnesses to confirm a fact. In John 5 Jesus says: Truly, truly, I say to you the Son can do nothing of his own accord but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise . . . I can do nothing on my own. As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved . . . But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me.

Who is the other witness Jesus is talking about? Now if Jesus is God and God is the other witness who is not a man and is greater than John - then we have a conundrum - two Gods.

 

[Colt]

Yep, in Acts it was Peter, but he wasn't just expressing his opinion - he was an eyewitness. Jesus was anointed at his baptism. Jesus is God's Messiah, the Lord's Christ.

God did not come down to earth - God or gods coming down to earth is a pagan belief. Jesus did not have "innate powers and authority" - scripture says that God did the mighty works and wonders and signs through him.

In Jewish culture (OT), it takes two or three witnesses to confirm a fact. In John 5 Jesus says: Truly, truly, I say to you the Son can do nothing of his own accord but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise . . . I can do nothing on my own. As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved . . . But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me.

Who is the other witness Jesus is talking about? Now if Jesus is God and God is the other witness who is not a man and is greater than John - then we have a conundrum - two Gods.

....."Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?".....


Plural manifestation. The divine Sons of God are unified in divinity with the Father, they are all God in spirit. To see a Creator Son is as close as we can get to seeing the Universal Father. The Father gives of himself in the creation of his Sons and their sons.​

Jesus explained this profound phenomenon to his apostles:


5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit​

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

 

[amazing grace]

....."Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?".....


Plural manifestation. The divine Sons of God are unified in divinity with the Father, they are all God in spirit. To see a Creator Son is as close as we can get to seeing the Universal Father. The Father gives of himself in the creation of his Sons and their sons.​

Jesus explained this profound phenomenon to his apostles:


5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Yes, Jesus came to declare the Father and he did. Jesus fully represented God his Father, so much so that if you had seen him, you had seen the Father.
Yes, God the Father was IN Christ.
Yes, Jesus spoke the words God gave him to speak just as prophesied in Deut. 18 - "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me (Moses) from among you, from your brothers---it is to him you shall listen---. . . . I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him." God is not speaking here of sending Himself but someone like Moses, i.e. a human being.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

Well, you didn't answer my question "Who is the other witness Jesus is talking about?" but instead, veered off in a completely different direction.

Yes, just as God was IN Christ via the Holy Spirit - we are promised that both God and Christ will dwell in us who believe in him.

Luke 24:49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you . . . which was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

 

[Colt]

Yes, Jesus came to declare the Father and he did. Jesus fully represented God his Father, so much so that if you had seen him, you had seen the Father.
Yes, God the Father was IN Christ.
Yes, Jesus spoke the words God gave him to speak just as prophesied in Deut. 18 - "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me (Moses) from among you, from your brothers---it is to him you shall listen---. . . . I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him." God is not speaking here of sending Himself but someone like Moses, i.e. a human being.

Well, you didn't answer my question "Who is the other witness Jesus is talking about?" but instead, veered off in a completely different direction.

Yes, just as God was IN Christ via the Holy Spirit - we are promised that both God and Christ will dwell in us who believe in him.

Luke 24:49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you . . . which was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

God the Father bears witness for God the Son incarnate as the human/divine Jesus of Nazareth.


13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

 

[Will Due]

"Who is the other witness Jesus is talking about?"

It think he was referring to John the Baptist.

 

[amazing grace]

It think he was referring to John the Baptist.

Think again: "But the testimony I have is greater than that of John. . . . The Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me."

 

[Will Due]

Think again: "But the testimony I have is greater than that of John. . . . The Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me."

Yes, the Father and John the Baptist are the witnesses.

 

[amazing grace]

Yes, the Father and John the Baptist are the witnesses.

If Jesus is God, then there would only be one to bear witness and it would be Jesus, i.e. God alone bearing witness, but Jesus said - If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true.
He also said "Not that the testimony that I receive is from man . . ."
Maybe I should have bolded the point: "But the testimony I have is greater than that of John. . . . The Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me."

 

[Colt]

If Jesus is God, then there would only be one to bear witness and it would be Jesus, i.e. God alone bearing witness, but Jesus said - If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true.
He also said "Not that the testimony that I receive is from man . . ."
Maybe I should have bolded the point: "But the testimony I have is greater than that of John. . . . The Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me."

If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. Because God is unity, the divine beings are always one with the Father. God the Son would say the same thing right now in heaven at the right hand of the Father.

 

[amazing grace]

If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. Because God is unity, the divine beings are always one with the Father. God the Son would say the same thing right now in heaven at the right hand of the Father.

If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. I - a singular primary pronoun of the first person . . . ALONE - having no one else present; on one's own; something confined to the specified subject or recipient - Jesus is the specified subject and recipient of the testimony.

There is another who bears witness about me . . . . ANOTHER - used to refer to an additional person or thing of the same type as one already mentioned or known about; one more.

Now if Jesus is God and God is the other witness who is not a man and is greater than John - then we have a conundrum - two Gods.

 

[Colt]

If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. I - a singular primary pronoun of the first person . . . ALONE - having no one else present; on one's own; something confined to the specified subject or recipient - Jesus is the specified subject and recipient of the testimony.

There is another who bears witness about me . . . . ANOTHER - used to refer to an additional person or thing of the same type as one already mentioned or known about; one more.

Now if Jesus is God and God is the other witness who is not a man and is greater than John - then we have a conundrum - two Gods.

Right, If the Human part of the human/divine person of Jesus bore witness then it wouldn't work. While on earth as a human the Son of God always defaulted to the will of the Father as the drama played out. At time Jesus spoke as a human and at other times by divine right. The miraculous person of Jesus could self-limit his divinity.