Jesus in Heaven is not God

[Colt]

Jesus’ body, after he was raised up from the dead, is a glorified body which is not limited in space and time like our in glorified bodies. A glorified body is also an immortal body so it cannot ‘die’ like our bodies.

I think you are thrashing… you really don’t know how else to try to deny the truth you are hearing!

The tomb was open because the body was taken out and disposed of.

I’m not hearing truth from you, I’m hearing your doubts about who Jesus really is.

 

[Colt]

Did you just Google that?

No, it’s obvious, I’ve said it many times.

“Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.”

The divine Son never died, only the form that he took on for 30+ years died.

 

[Sargonski]

The plan of God for the salvation of mankind: the promised ‘seed of a woman’, the ‘Servant on whom God would place His Spirit’ and did!

You are mistaken friend .. Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel .. not for all of mankind.

 

[Sargonski]

Because the scriptures say that Mary conceived Jesus via the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High.

The angels of the Genesis record sinned and are being held in chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the day of judgment so I doubt they were sent by God. (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6)

Not much interested in what the Pseudopigrapha has to say - not inspiring I am afraid .. Just the words of an author writing long long after the fact .. engaging in a wee bit of Pious Fraud .. but the main reason is the contradiction of previous scripture.

Satan - the Tester .. is not a fallen angel.. he is one of God's most cherished sons .. who God sends to do tasks .. such as the testing of Job .. and the Testing of Jesus. Satan does not act outside the will of the Father .. not sitting in chains ..

The Angel that visited mary was perhaps "A Holy Spirit" as opposed to the Spirit of the Lord .. .. that Holy divinity may have done the deed ... and delivered the seed.

Now Satan is one of the Sons of God .. different than the others mentioned in Genesis .. but .. Genesis does not tell us the "Sons of God" in genesis sinned .. you are mistaken. .. and nor are they really "Angels" unless you wish to claim that Angels have working private parts .. and live with human women as husband and wife .. and have the power of a God and were born of a God..

 

[Sargonski]

No, it’s obvious, I’ve said it many times.

“Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.”

The divine Son never died, only the form that he took on for 30+ years died.

Never died ? So the Apostles Creed I have been reciting all my life is wrong ??

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

 

[Colt]

Never died ? So the Apostles Creed I have been reciting all my life is wrong ??

The Son of God was alive from eternity before taking on the human form as Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus laid down his human form (it died) he waited 3 days and returned in a new form that we will all have in heaven.

The so called apostles creed was developed by the institutional church as a membership requirement.

From the Urantia Book revelation 1955:

JESUS’ HUMAN AND DIVINE MINDS​

161:3.1 "Consciousness of divinity was a gradual growth in the mind of Jesus up to the occasion of his baptism. After he became fully self-conscious of his divine nature, prehuman existence, and universe prerogatives, he seems to have possessed the power of variously limiting his human consciousness of his divinity. It appears to us that from his baptism until the crucifixion it was entirely optional with Jesus whether to depend only on the human mind or to utilize the knowledge of both the human and the divine minds. At times he appeared to avail himself of only that information which was resident in the human intellect. On other occasions he appeared to act with such fullness of knowledge and wisdom as could be afforded only by the utilization of the superhuman content of his divine consciousness.

161:3.2 We can understand his unique performances only by accepting the theory that he could, at will, self-limit his divinity consciousness. We are fully cognizant that he frequently withheld from his associates his foreknowledge of events, and that he was aware of the nature of their thinking and planning. We understand that he did not wish his followers to know too fully that he was able to discern their thoughts and to penetrate their plans. He did not desire too far to transcend the concept of the human as it was held in the minds of his apostles and disciples.

161:3.3 We are utterly at a loss to differentiate between his practice of self-limiting his divine consciousness and his technique of concealing his preknowledge and thought discernment from his human associates. We are convinced that he used both of these techniques, but we are not always able, in a given instance, to specify which method he may have employed. We frequently observed him acting with only the human content of consciousness; then would we behold him in conference with the directors of the celestial hosts of the universe and discern the undoubted functioning of the divine mind. And then on almost numberless occasions did we witness the working of this combined personality of man and God as it was activated by the apparent perfect union of the human and the divine minds. This is the limit of our knowledge of such phenomena; we really do not actually know the full truth about this mystery." UB 1955

 

[blü 2]

It’s often said by Trinitarians that Jesus was a man on earth but resumed being God when he was raised up to Heaven. In fact the saying is that Jesus went BACK to being in Heaven.

We can agree at the start that (given an historical Jesus) Jesus was not God, hence not a Trinitarian, since all five versions of him in the NT expressly deny they're God and never claim to be God. And indeed Jesus didn't get his promotion until the fourth century.

But notice that both the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John are said to have pre-existed in heaven. They're also said to have created the material universe, and those two elements together suggest a gnostic influence.

Paul:
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

John
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
(And several more about pre-existing.)

However, the Jesus of Mark is just an ordinary Jew until he's baptized by JtB and God adopts him as [his] son on the model of David's adoption as God's son in Psalm 2:7 (confirmed Acts 13:33).

And the Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke didn't exist until God impregnated Mary.

 

[Soapy]

We can agree at the start that (given an historical Jesus) Jesus was not God, hence not a Trinitarian, since all five versions of him in the NT expressly deny they're God and never claim to be God. And indeed Jesus didn't get his promotion until the fourth century.

But notice that both the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John are said to have pre-existed in heaven. They're also said to have created the material universe, and those two elements together suggest a gnostic influence.

Paul:
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

John
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
(And several more about pre-existing.)

However, the Jesus of Mark is just an ordinary Jew until he's baptized by JtB and God adopts him as [his] son on the model of David's adoption as God's son in Psalm 2:7 (confirmed Acts 13:33).

And the Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke didn't exist until God impregnated Mary.

The book of John is highly suspicious in its INTERPRETATION. The ROMAN Catholic Church, and hence all trinitarian and Unitarian and Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic plus other Jesus-only/first type churches all attempt to misclaim what is expressed in the book of John.

Things Paul wrote were MISTRANSLATED under the orders the governing bodies of the church so that the trinity belief shooed be promoted over the truth due to Emperor Constantine’s orders for one Christian church.

Your last two paragraphs carry the truth. It should be noted that (as far as I have read) no trinitarian claims from any of the books of Matthew, Mark, or Luke… (though, of course, they were taken from similar sources, doesn’t out way the fact of non-trinitarian expressions)

Something else to be noted… The book of John has the ‘author’ making many claims about HIMSELF being Jesus’ favourite… Glorifying himself…. Now there’s a hint of something!!!

 

[amazing grace]

God is ALL divine beings which are indistinguishable to man. They are all spiritual beings. The spirit of Christ is hear among us along with the Father and other spirits of God.

God is not one of his created beings, i.e. angels. The Spirit of God and Christ dwells is in us who are born again of the Spirit.

If Jesus was God in a body of flesh, then no human person came into being at the conception and consequently there never was a human person Jesus of Nazareth but only human flesh that a "god person" came into. If the "god person" is removed from Jesus, the person that was walking around in the land of Israel - what is left? A sort of limp lump of a person less human body? Why is it so hard to acknowledge and recognize that God exalted a human person, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, His Christ to His own right hand?

 

[amazing grace]

Not much interested in what the Pseudopigrapha has to say - not inspiring I am afraid .. Just the words of an author writing long long after the fact .. engaging in a wee bit of Pious Fraud .. but the main reason is the contradiction of previous scripture.

All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness. 2 Tim. 3:16

Satan - the Tester .. is not a fallen angel.. he is one of God's most cherished sons .. who God sends to do tasks .. such as the testing of Job .. and the Testing of Jesus. Satan does not act outside the will of the Father .. not sitting in chains ..

The Angel that visited mary was perhaps "A Holy Spirit" as opposed to the Spirit of the Lord .. .. that Holy divinity may have done the deed ... and delivered the seed.

Now Satan is one of the Sons of God .. different than the others mentioned in Genesis .. but .. Genesis does not tell us the "Sons of God" in genesis sinned .. you are mistaken. .. and nor are they really "Angels" unless you wish to claim that Angels have working private parts .. and live with human women as husband and wife .. and have the power of a God and were born of a God..

Satan is a fallen angel as were the ones in Genesis. THE HOLY SPIRIT is the power of the MOST HIGH, i.e. God.

 

[Colt]

God is not one of his created beings, i.e. angels. The Spirit of God and Christ dwells is in us who are born again of the Spirit.

If Jesus was God in a body of flesh, then no human person came into being at the conception and consequently there never was a human person Jesus of Nazareth but only human flesh that a "god person" came into. If the "god person" is removed from Jesus, the person that was walking around in the land of Israel - what is left? A sort of limp lump of a person less human body? Why is it so hard to acknowledge and recognize that God exalted a human person, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, His Christ to His own right hand?

God creates more beings than angels. The preexistent Son of God becoming the person of Mary's baby was the miracle of miracles. Jesus of Nazareth was both human and divine in one miraculous person. That being the case Jesus was divinely brilliant and cryptic in what he said about his true identity.

All personaliy is from God weather spirit born or not.

 

[amazing grace]

God creates more beings than angels. The preexistent Son of God becoming the person of Mary's baby was the miracle of miracles. Jesus of Nazareth was both human and divine in one miraculous person. That being the case Jesus was divinely brilliant and cryptic in what he said about his true identity.

All personaliy is from God weather spirit born or not.

I didn't say that God ONLY created angels - I said that God is not one of his created beings.

How did Jesus preexist? In what form did Jesus preexist? How did he become a "person" in the womb of Mary? If one is God - how is that a fully human being like all human beings? What do you mean by divine? Didn't Jesus admit he was a man which is a human being?

All people do not belong to God - only those who are born again of the Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ belong to God.

 

[Colt]

I didn't say that God ONLY created angels - I said that God is not one of his created beings.

How did Jesus preexist? In what form did Jesus preexist? How did he become a "person" in the womb of Mary? If one is God - how is that a fully human being like all human beings? What do you mean by divine? Didn't Jesus admit he was a man which is a human being?

All people do not belong to God - only those who are born again of the Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ belong to God.

Jesus preexisted as a divine spiritual being with personality. The miracle of the personality of the Son of God becoming the personality of Jesus is known only on paradise. Divine means God. Jesus was both man AND God.

All people may not be loyal to God and even deny their Heavenly Father, but he made them.

There is more than one Son of God

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus preexisted as a divine spiritual being with personality. The miracle of the personality of the Son of God becoming the personality of Jesus is known only on paradise. Divine means God. Jesus was both man AND God.

All people may not be loyal to God and even deny their Heavenly Father, but he made them.

There is more than one Son of God

So a "personality" became the Son of God? Where in scripture is Jesus described as" "a divine spiritual being with personality" and that that "personality" was God?

There is more that are called "sons of God", i.e. angels and the ones born again through faith in Jesus Christ. There is one who is the only begotten Son of God, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.

 

[Soapy]

God is not one of his created beings, i.e. angels. The Spirit of God and Christ dwells is in us who are born again of the Spirit.

If Jesus was God in a body of flesh, then no human person came into being at the conception and consequently there never was a human person Jesus of Nazareth but only human flesh that a "god person" came into. If the "god person" is removed from Jesus, the person that was walking around in the land of Israel - what is left? A sort of limp lump of a person less human body?

Why is it so hard to acknowledge and recognize that God exalted a human person, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, His Christ to His own right hand?

Exactly!!!! Full points on this matter:

• “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,” (Phil 2:9)
• “You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” (Hebrews 1:9)

 

[Colt]

So a "personality" became the Son of God? Where in scripture is Jesus described as" "a divine spiritual being with personality" and that that "personality" was God?

There is more that are called "sons of God", i.e. angels and the ones born again through faith in Jesus Christ. There is one who is the only begotten Son of God, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.

John 1:2

2 He was with God in the beginning.

“He” is the person of the Son of God, Christ Michael, aka Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[amazing grace]

John 1:2

2 He was with God in the beginning.

“He” is the person of the Son of God, Christ Michael, aka Jesus of Nazareth.

Yes, figuratively Jesus was with God in the beginning as God's plan of redemption and salvation, not a literal existence. If Jesus preexisted his actual beginning, then his mind, personality, and moral character preexisted meaning that Jesus did not need to undergo development of human character but yet He grew in stature and increased in wisdom. Where in scripture does Jesus speak of a real consciousness he had of a pre-existent state?

Nowhere is Jesus referred to "Christ Michael". Jesus of Nazareth was a man through whom God worked signs, wonders and miracles.

 

[Colt]

Yes, figuratively Jesus was with God in the beginning as God's plan of redemption and salvation, not a literal existence. If Jesus preexisted his actual beginning, then his mind, personality, and moral character preexisted meaning that Jesus did not need to undergo development of human character but yet He grew in stature and increased in wisdom. Where in scripture does Jesus speak of a real consciousness he had of a pre-existent state?

Nowhere is Jesus referred to "Christ Michael". Jesus of Nazareth was a man through whom God worked signs, wonders and miracles.

That’s a rationalization to fit unbelief.

Then it should read, “in the beginning God had a plan.” Problem is it says “He” was with God in the beginning. Jesus also said that he had glory with God before this world was, I am from above etc.

Your disbelief requires dumbing down every reference to preexistence.

 

[blü 2]

The book of John is highly suspicious in its INTERPRETATION. The ROMAN Catholic Church, and hence all trinitarian and Unitarian and Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic plus other Jesus-only/first type churches all attempt to misclaim what is expressed in the book of John.

As I said, John, like Paul, shows gnostic ideas ─ Jesus pre-existing as demiurge and creating the material universe. In the synoptics, Mark is closest to a credible origin for Jesus, while Matthew and Luke, apparently misled by the Septuagint's misleading translation of Isaiah ('virgin' where the original says 'young woman') invent the divine insemination nonsense. Did Jesus really have God's Y-chromosome?

Something else to be noted… The book of John has the ‘author’ making many claims about HIMSELF being Jesus’ favourite… Glorifying himself…. Now there’s a hint of something!!!

I'm aware of that claim, but on what I presently know, I'm not persuaded that the author of John ever met an historical Jesus, any more than the other authors did.

 

[Soapy]

Yes, figuratively Jesus was with God in the beginning as God's plan of redemption and salvation, not a literal existence. If Jesus preexisted his actual beginning, then his mind, personality, and moral character preexisted meaning that Jesus did not need to undergo development of human character but yet He grew in stature and increased in wisdom. Where in scripture does Jesus speak of a real consciousness he had of a pre-existent state?

Nowhere is Jesus referred to "Christ Michael". Jesus of Nazareth was a man through whom God worked signs, wonders and miracles.

Colt is just ‘having a laugh’ by posting devils advocate nonsense and watching us (hopefully for him!) frantically trying to answer with scriptural truth. He’s teasing forum members just for fun!

However, if we have the time, it does provide the ability to develop strength in refuting nonsense claims from others in more serious situations.

But beware that the urge to respond to the nonsense doesn’t lead you to waste time you could be doing something better nor draw you into desperation in saying something incorrect - he’ll jump on that and call you out …!!