Jesus in India

[Katzpur]

And america was far, far away (in those days) and was only discovered in the 16th century, so i cant see jesus having gone there anyway. he already had enough going on, on his side of the world.

You obviously figure He'd have had to have taken a boat.

 

[Jainarayan]

There have been reported incidents in history where people survived the crucifixion.

Jesus was only on the Cross for a few hours then he was hastened to a tomb for treatment, not for burial, in my opinion.

How is it that the Roman guards would permit this? Would they have turned a blind eye, as modern LEOs often do? Or have the Romans been given worse press than they actually deserved? Or it's possible they didn't have, at the time, a good grasp on when death occurs. A person could be alive, yet taken for dead.

In my opinion, if he was a messenger from God, or a jivanmukta, I cannot see how God would "sell him out" and permit such an ignoble death. To that end, I can see him surviving the crucifixion, if it was he who was crucified, and not someone else.

 

[cbachinger]

Oh, yes it's compelling and intriguing, and not implausible... don't misunderstand. But I consider the o.p.'s position to be not unlike those of Ancient Alien proponents and "theorists", or at least the way it's presented, as already foregone fact and conclusion.

I dont plan to be any theorist or anything of the sort.

Ive read the relevant information and both varied and numerous accounts and evidences gives in India, Nepal and Tibet and the nature of it all strongly points to what many people will still want to refuse to believe, regardless of what is presented.

How many other ways can the evidence be presented? ancient scrolls, many high status testimonies, numerous local legends and stories circulating around the subject of jesus being in india and a body which the sriniagar authorities will refuse to have examined for age verification.

 

[cbachinger]

You obviously figure He'd have had to have taken a boat.

he already had palestine, india through to tibet to cover on foot (nothing fancy in those days as you well know), so why would he even consider crossing a huge ocean, which was only being explored centuries later? What people had at the time was enough for their brains to comprehend. There was nowhere else familiar to go besides India, as the rest of the known world was either roman controlled or no point in him going there.

 

[cbachinger]

I believe that Jesus' greatest suffering happened in Gethsemane, where he experienced the pains of the world, and sweat drops of blood. This weakened him physically, so that his suffering on the cross was not prolonged.quote]

The blood sweat wasnt him experiencing the pains of the world! according to the bible he was petrified for the pain that he was about to endure at the hands of the romans and asking if he can escape it. the pain i assure u came from being whipped, carrying his cross on a badly bruised and bleeding body, while continuously being whipped and later suffering on the cross.

 

[cbachinger]

the church didnt build the mythology.

perhaps not but they did a damn good job making their own story where necessary, throw it down everyone's throats and threaten anyone with eternal damnation if they refused.

 

[paarsurrey]

How is it that the Roman guards would permit this? Would they have turned a blind eye, as modern LEOs often do? Or have the Romans been given worse press than they actually deserved? Or it's possible they didn't have, at the time, a good grasp on when death occurs. A person could be alive, yet taken for dead.

In my opinion, if he was a messenger from God, or a jivanmukta, I cannot see how God would "sell him out" and permit such an ignoble death. To that end, I can see him surviving the crucifixion, if it was he who was crucified, and not someone else.

Pilate ,the Roman official did not see any offence of Jesus and wanted to let Jesus go free but the Jews threatened him; so he sort of found a way to free with an underhand dealing .

It seems that Guards were also bribed by Jesus' friends who took his body, in my opinion.

"Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 Says:

In short, these gospels contain many things which show that they have not preserved their original form, or that their writers were some other persons — not the disciples. For example, can the statement of the gospel according to Matthew: ‘And this is well known among the Jews till to-day’, be properly ascribed to Matthew? Does it not show that the writer of the gospel of Matthew was some other person who lived at a time when Matthew had already died? Then, the same gospel of Matthew 28:12,13 says: And they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, saying, Say ye, his disciples came by night and stole him away while we slept’.

It would be noticed how unconvincing and irrational such statements are. If the meaning of this statement is that the Jews wanted to conceal the rising of Jesus from the dead, and that they had bribed the soldiers in order that this great miracle should not become generally known, why was it that Jesus, whose duty it was to proclaim this miracle among the Jews, kept it a secret; nay, he forbade even others to disclose it? If it is urged that he was afraid of being caught, I would say, that when the decree of God had descended upon him, and he had, after suffering death, come to life again, assuming a spiritual and a glorious body, what fear did he now have of the Jews — surely the Jews now had no power over him; he was now beyond and above mortal existence?

One observes with regret that while, on the one hand, it is said that he was made to live again and assume a spiritual body, that he met the disciples and went to Galilee and thence went to heaven, he is nevertheless afraid of the Jews for quite trivial things and, in spite of his glorious body, he fled secretly from the country, lest the Jews discover him; he made a journey of seventy miles to Galilee in order to save his life and time and again asked the people not to mention this to others.

Are these the signs and ways of a glorious body? No, the truth is that it was not a new and a glorious body — it was the same body, with wounds on it, which had been saved from death; and, as there was still the fear of the Jews, Jesus, making use of all precautions, left the land. All talk of anything contrary to this is absurd — as the one about the Jews having bribed the soldiers in order to make them say that the disciples had stolen the corpse while they (the soldiers) were asleep. If the soldiers were asleep they could be very well asked how they came to know in their sleep that the corpse of Jesus had been stolen away. From the mere fact of Jesus not being in the tomb, can anybody in reason believe that he had gone up to heaven?

Jesus in India

“Furthermore, in the Greek version of the Gospels, when Joseph of Arimetha asks for Jesus' body, he used the word soma -- a word applied only to a living body. Pilate, assenting to the request, employs the word ptoma -- which means "corpse". (Perhaps the Greeks knew something we didn't.) Interestingly, there is also the possibility that Pilate was bribed. This would account for the crucifiction taking place at the Garden of Gethsemane (private land), and for the body being taken down so quickly. In short the evidence is overwhelming that the Cruci- fixion was instead a Cruci- fiction.”

The Crucifiction

“At best, neither the story of an accusation of theft nor that of guards is more likely to be true than the other. But even if we assume a guard, the gospel also depicts these guards as accepting a bribe to lie about theft, and thus it follows that the guards would be just as likely to accept a bribe to allow Jesus to escape. Indeed, they would probably have no qualms about accepting both bribes, being twice the richer for it. And since Jesus was placed in the tomb of his rich and influential supporter, Joseph of Arimathea, there is a strong possibility of bribery.”

Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection Story: Probability of Survival vs. Miracle - Assessing the Odds

 

[fallingblood]

There have been reported incidents in history where people survived the crucifixion.

Jesus was only on the Cross for a few hours then he was hastened to a tomb for treatment, not for burial, in my opinion.

I believe there is one such report. And really, it doesn't lend itself much to this case. The reason being, when Josephus describes the survival, it was because the individual had some of the best doctors around treating him. Also, at the same time, that one man was out of three who were taken off the cross. The other two died quite quickly even when taken down.

Yes, crucifixion usually lasted up to days. However, a few hours would have been enough as well. We are talking about a pretty severe beating before hand. Such beatings in themselves have been recorded as killing people. And the Romans really had no honor for someone like Jesus. So with the beating, and crucifixion (and the stabbing in the side, if we are to believe that story) would have been more then enough to see him die.

Even if he was taken off the cross alive, there is no reason to believe he stayed alive long after. The damage was done.



As for Jesus going to India. Nope. I mean, it is a possibility, but it is not probable. And there is no reason to think he did. If he wanted to learn from Buddhist or Hindus, he could in his area. And even though his teachings resemble Eastern teachings, so did that of many other Jews. Simply, there are similarities in the religions. Not to mention, Judaism had already been influenced by Eastern thought anyway, so it is no wonder why some of the teachings of Jesus match Eastern ideas. However, they also can be found in other Jewish teachings.

If Jesus did go to India, he obviously wasted his time. If he went during the missing years, it was a waste as he brought back nothing new. If he went after his supposed death, it's a waste as he abandons what he set out to do, and obviously doesn't make a big impact.

 

[Jainarayan]

Pilate ,the Roman official did not see any offence of Jesus and wanted to let Jesus go free but the Jews threatened him; so he sort of found a way to free with an underhand dealing .

It seems that Guards were also bribed by Jesus' friends who took his body, in my opinion.

Quite plausible! True, Pilate wanted nothing to do with Jesus, especially after his wife had her dream. Btw, she is a saint of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Being so far away from Rome, in a land the Roman governors didn't want anything to do with they probably couldn't care less what happened, only to the extent they could keep order and keep Rome happy. I'm sure they were like any politicians of any time in history: not opposed to lining their pockets, uh, togas.

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe there is one such report. And really, it doesn't lend itself much to this case. The reason being, when Josephus describes the survival, it was because the individual had some of the best doctors around treating him. Also, at the same time, that one man was out of three who were taken off the cross. The other two died quite quickly even when taken down.

Yes, crucifixion usually lasted up to days. However, a few hours would have been enough as well. We are talking about a pretty severe beating before hand. Such beatings in themselves have been recorded as killing people. And the Romans really had no honor for someone like Jesus. So with the beating, and crucifixion (and the stabbing in the side, if we are to believe that story) would have been more then enough to see him die.

Even if he was taken off the cross alive, there is no reason to believe he stayed alive long after. The damage was done.



As for Jesus going to India. Nope. I mean, it is a possibility, but it is not probable. And there is no reason to think he did. If he wanted to learn from Buddhist or Hindus, he could in his area. And even though his teachings resemble Eastern teachings, so did that of many other Jews. Simply, there are similarities in the religions. Not to mention, Judaism had already been influenced by Eastern thought anyway, so it is no wonder why some of the teachings of Jesus match Eastern ideas. However, they also can be found in other Jewish teachings.

If Jesus did go to India, he obviously wasted his time. If he went during the missing years, it was a waste as he brought back nothing new. If he went after his supposed death, it's a waste as he abandons what he set out to do, and obviously doesn't make a big impact.

The other two men who were crucified along-with Jesus were alive that is why their bones were broken so that they die; but Jesus bones were not broken; the constable uttered a ploy for the public only so that Jesus' bones were not broken; as he knew that Pilate wanted to save Jesus, in my oipinion.

 

[fallingblood]

The other two men who were crucified along-with Jesus were alive that is why their bones were broken so that they die; but Jesus bones were not broken; the constable uttered a ploy for the public only so that Jesus' bones were not broken; as he knew that Pilate wanted to save Jesus, in my oipinion.

The bones were only broken to hasten death. If the individual was dead, there is no reason to break his legs.

 

[paarsurrey]

The bones were only broken to hasten death. If the individual was dead, there is no reason to break his legs.

That means they were alive; so why should Jesus have died; it is for this that right at that time Pilate expressed surprise on Jesus dying; it is very much in the Bible.

 

[fallingblood]

That means they were alive; so why should Jesus have died; it is for this that right at that time Pilate expressed surprise on Jesus dying; it is very much in the Bible.

Having the legs broken meant the others were alive. That really does not reflect upon Jesus. Jesus didn't have his legs broken because he was dead. As for Pilate expressing surprise, that means little. Sure, people may generally have lasted longer, but a couple of hours was more than enough to kill someone.

 

[paarsurrey]

Having the legs broken meant the others were alive. That really does not reflect upon Jesus. Jesus didn't have his legs broken because he was dead. As for Pilate expressing surprise, that means little. Sure, people may generally have lasted longer, but a couple of hours was more than enough to kill someone.

I think you are wrong; Jesus was a strong young man; if others were alive he was sure to be alive.

His friends took his body hurriedly to a solitary tomb; is he was to resurrect from the dead; his friends would have not been interested to take him as it would have been more of a sign if he would have resurrected before the eyes of the Jews to whom Jesus had promised a sign; it is very much mentioned in Bible.

 

[cbachinger]

I'm on the fence as to whether Jesus died on the cross, but medically, a rapid death is possible. Breaking the legs would hasten death because the condemned would not be able to push himself up to try to breathe. Jesus's legs were not broken because he was probably already dead or near death. Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Citations and bibliography: Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There was a docu on The History Channel with a medical team led by a doctor, using an athlete as a stand-in for Jesus. Of course the athlete was monitored closely. After only a few minutes being suspended, he began to show signs of physical trauma... heart rate rising, muscles showing fatigue, difficulty breathing. If memory serves, it was the medical team that stopped the experiment because the man was in so much distress. He himself said it was not pleasant. I tried to find a YT vid of the episode, to no avail. I don't doubt that IF Jesus was crucified, he died rapidly.

Unless the athlete happenes to be a SEAL commander at the very least, Jmmanuel had gone under intensive spiritual and healing training, including ancient yogi, which permits (even trained masters today) the practitioner to go into a deep trance, near-death status and even stop his heart from beating; with the skill and strength to mentally and spiritually get his heart beating again.

 

[cbachinger]

I think you are wrong; Jesus was a strong young man; if others were alive he was sure to be alive.

His friends took his body hurriedly to a solitary tomb; is he was to resurrect from the dead; his friends would have not been interested to take him as it would have been more of a sign if he would have resurrected before the eyes of the Jews to whom Jesus had promised a sign; it is very much mentioned in Bible.

To fallingblood; many people had survived without broken legs for days, with the intention to suffer for days but as has been mentioned, he only hung on the cross for 6 hours...historical accounts state that Pilate was surprised that Jmmanuel seemed to have already died, so why say the opposite?
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He was indeed a strong man, in fact the most spiritually advanced person on earth at the time and a healthy outdoorsy-looking traveller, making him a confident and sturdy individual.

 

[fallingblood]

I think you are wrong; Jesus was a strong young man; if others were alive he was sure to be alive.

His friends took his body hurriedly to a solitary tomb; is he was to resurrect from the dead; his friends would have not been interested to take him as it would have been more of a sign if he would have resurrected before the eyes of the Jews to whom Jesus had promised a sign; it is very much mentioned in Bible.

The others are not said to have been crucified at the same time of Jesus, or gone through the same scourging that Jesus did. We don't know their age, their situation in life, or their health. So we can't assume anything based on them, because we know nothing about them.

And Jesus wasn't really all that young. He was in his thirties (most likely), which meant he had lived a long hard life. We also don't know if he was strong. Having traveled so much can wear a person out, and make them feel a lot weaker. Not to mention that scourging (the whipping he received) in itself could kill a person. So it wouldn't matter how strong he was.

As for the tomb, no one expected him to resurrect. That wouldn't have crossed their minds. The resurrection, in Jewish though, was not meant to be something special for just one person, but something that occurred to all Jews. It just was not thought of. So for them to think of faking his death, just so he could resurrect makes no sense, as no one was expecting that. And it wouldn't have been a sign to the Jews, as it goes against what they thought would have happened.

 

[fallingblood]

To fallingblood; many people had survived without broken legs for days, with the intention to suffer for days but as has been mentioned, he only hung on the cross for 6 hours...historical accounts state that Pilate was surprised that Jmmanuel seemed to have already died, so why say the opposite?
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He was indeed a strong man, in fact the most spiritually advanced person on earth at the time and a healthy outdoorsy-looking traveller, making him a confident and sturdy individual.

Many people also died shortly after being put on the cross. Just because one could hand on the cross for days, doesn't mean everyone did. And if one had a particularly bad scourging before hand (and we can be sure Jesus did), it is lucky he was even alive to be put on the cross, and it makes sense he didn't survive long at all. And really, it wasn't like he was the only one to ever die after just 6 hours.

And we have no historical account about Pilate and the crucifixion. We have the Biblical story which probably isn't very accurate in this regards. But if we do take it to be literal, Jesus also has a spear thrust into his side. So if he wasn't dead before, he was surely dead now.


And we don't know how he looked, his physical composition, or any of that. To state such is just making things up.

 

[fallingblood]

Unless the athlete happenes to be a SEAL commander at the very least, Jmmanuel had gone under intensive spiritual and healing training, including ancient yogi, which permits (even trained masters today) the practitioner to go into a deep trance, near-death status and even stop his heart from beating; with the skill and strength to mentally and spiritually get his heart beating again.

You're simply making things up now. There is no suggestion that Jesus had any of that training, and in fact, there is no reason to even assume he did.

 

[paarsurrey]

The others are not said to have been crucified at the same time of Jesus, or gone through the same scourging that Jesus did. We don't know their age, their situation in life, or their health. So we can't assume anything based on them, because we know nothing about them.

And Jesus wasn't really all that young. He was in his thirties (most likely), which meant he had lived a long hard life. We also don't know if he was strong. Having traveled so much can wear a person out, and make them feel a lot weaker. Not to mention that scourging (the whipping he received) in itself could kill a person. So it wouldn't matter how strong he was.

As for the tomb, no one expected him to resurrect. That wouldn't have crossed their minds. The resurrection, in Jewish though, was not meant to be something special for just one person, but something that occurred to all Jews. It just was not thought of. So for them to think of faking his death, just so he could resurrect makes no sense, as no one was expecting that. And it wouldn't have been a sign to the Jews, as it goes against what they thought would have happened.

I quote from Bible:

Luke 23:32-43, (NAS95) 32 Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him. 33 When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One." 36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, "If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!" 38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, "THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40

They were talking with one another and joking; so they were in their senses.

Thirty two is a young age, in my opinion, and Jesus was strong built .