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Jesus is a Fictional Character

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
People believed David Koresh and Jim Jones who died and are in the grave. People aren’t following them now.

That's probably because nobody is promoting them. The point remains that people will believe things that cause them to give up their lives, and those things can be false, meaning that simply because a large number of people died for a belief is not a reason to believe what they did. The arguments refuted suggested that there wouldn't be so many people dying for a false doctrine, and my point was that that is not correct.

If the apostles didn’t see Jesus after He rose from the dead and was still in the grave, they wouldn’t have concocted the whole story and died for that. They would’ve went back to fishing or whatever, but Jesus did rise from the dead, He walked with them 40 days after that, they saw Him got to Heaven, they obeyed His command to wait in Jerusalem till they receive power of the Holy Spirit, they did receive power at Pentecost and this is all recorded in the Book of Acts.

None of those words makes me believe that anybody saw a man three days dead get up and walk around or leave the earth, or that people don't concoct stories or die from believing them. Isn't that the argument - that there must be more than a bunch of mistaken people if so many died willingly for their belief?

How hard would it be today to convince a bunch of people of something false that gets them killed believing it? I already mention the Covid vaccine disinformation. How hard was it to get that woman that was killed at the Capitol building to die for a false election hoax belief. People are easily deceived, even unto death.

Much different than the cult and false prophet examples you’re using

No, not different in a relevant sense. People being lied to, believing the lie, and dying for that belief is pretty much all the same thing, the differences being the particular lie, the number believing it, and the number dying from that. How many Americans have gone to war and died for the lie that they were defending freedom? You could also argue that because there were so many of them, they must have been on to something, but that would be incorrect as well.

We've tried pointing out how "die for a lie" has been done countless times, but they always come up with some little distinction without a difference that makes their case "special". Then its out in the weeds n down the rabbit hole splitting hairs over the distinction..

You called it.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
That's probably because nobody is promoting them. The point remains that people will believe things that cause them to give up their lives, and those things can be false, meaning that simply because a large number of people died for a belief is not a reason to believe what they did. The arguments refuted suggested that there wouldn't be so many people dying for a false doctrine, and my point was that that is not correct.
You called it.

We've danced across that floor before.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Only in John, not the synoptics. I would like to think that he didn't think he was.
Where in John does Jesus say he's God?

All five versions of Jesus in the NT deny they're God and John has more denials than the others ─ for example:

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I don’t think, i.e., my opinion, that writers in Jesus’ day (contemporaries), once they heard of the miracles associated with Jesus, would have thought these were real events....therefore, they wouldn’t have written about him, for fear of ruining their reputation. They would have scoffed at the idea of resurrecting people! Let alone, Jesus himself being resurrected!

Just think about it.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
That's Christian folklore, everyone that has read some scholarship is aware of that nonsense, read something by an actual historian, besides, Justin Matyr's quotes appear to come from gLuke.
So says you.
I certainly don't pay attention to the claims of mythers. :D
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Where in John does Jesus say he's God?

All five versions of Jesus in the NT deny they're God and John has more denials than the others ─ for example:

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

Quotes like "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am" and "I and the Father are one" seem pretty sure, although there are really no others, so pretty scant evidence he thought so. I would guess he never said those things. So much of John is in direct conflict with the synoptics.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Quotes like "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am" and "I and the Father are one" seem pretty sure, although there are really no others, so pretty scant evidence he thought so. I would guess he never said those things. So much of John is in direct conflict with the synoptics.
Thanks.

The Jesuses of Paul and of John are gnostic-flavored. Like the gnostic demiurge, each of them pre-existed with God in heaven, and each of them created the material universe (1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:2-3). Thus, before Abraham was, the Jesuses of Paul and of John indeed were.

This isn't the case with the Jesus of Mark, who's an ordinary Jew till God adopts him at his baptism. nor the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke, who are the result of the divine insemination of a virgin.

"The Father and I are one" is explained in:

John 17:20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
In other words, says John's Jesus, this oneness is available to everybody.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Thanks.

The Jesuses of Paul and of John are gnostic-flavored. Like the gnostic demiurge, each of them pre-existed with God in heaven, and each of them created the material universe (1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:2-3). Thus, before Abraham was, the Jesuses of Paul and of John indeed were.

This isn't the case with the Jesus of Mark, who's an ordinary Jew till God adopts him at his baptism. nor the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke, who are the result of the divine insemination of a virgin.

"The Father and I are one" is explained in:

John 17:20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
In other words, says John's Jesus, this oneness is available to everybody.

Oh, thanks for the clarification. Very illuminating.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
So says you.
I certainly don't pay attention to the claims of mythers. :D

That's the thing, everyone that doesn't agree with you is some kind of a myther. Calling people mythers tells me that you have already come to your conclusion, that Jesus is an historical figure and now all you have to do is read and find evidence to fit that claim, as in putting the horse before the cart, fallacious reasoning.

Evidence is suppose to lead you to a conclusion. It's like the irony in the term, the third quest for an historical Jesus. Going on yet another quest to find evidence to prove once and for all what we already know is the truth, that Jesus is historical, well, how noble. It's like going on a quest to find evidence that will connect the crime to the accused that is already locked up, even if it takes a lifetime to accomplish, and then some.

I don't make claims, I certainly don't claim to know, and you don't know either, you just believe.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
That's the thing, everyone that doesn't agree with you is some kind of a myther. Calling people mythers tells me that you have already come to your conclusion, that Jesus is an historical figure and now all you have to do is read and find evidence to fit that claim, as in putting the horse before the cart, fallacious reasoning.

Evidence is suppose to lead you to a conclusion. It's like the irony in the term, the third quest for an historical Jesus. Going on a yet another quest to find evidence to prove once and for all what we already know is the truth, that Jesus is historical, well, how noble. It's like going on a quest to find evidence that will connect the crime to the accused that is already locked up, even if it takes a lifetime to accomplish, and then some.

I don't make claims, I certainly don't claim to know, and you don't know either, you just believe.
Self deception, never suspecting there's
nobody easier to fool.
 
Perhaps not everyone is a gnostic Christian like Paul and the author of John.

So they may prefer to stay away from gnosticism and stick with Mark and the synoptics.
Is this the definition of Gnosticism?
Question: What is the definition of Gnosticism? What is its relationship to the Bible?
Answer: The word Gnosticism comes from the Greek term gnosis (Strong's Concordance #G1108, translated as the word 'science' in the KJV version of 1Timothy 6:20) which means 'knowledge.' Christian Gnosticism had its earliest beginnings in the reformation of the Greek religion beginning back in the sixth and fifth centuries B.C. It did not become a significant religious and philosophical movement until around 100 A.D. in the Roman Empire.

Because this isn’t what John and Paul taught or preached.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is this the definition of Gnosticism?
Question: What is the definition of Gnosticism? What is its relationship to the Bible?
Answer: The word Gnosticism comes from the Greek term gnosis (Strong's Concordance #G1108, translated as the word 'science' in the KJV version of 1Timothy 6:20) which means 'knowledge.' Christian Gnosticism had its earliest beginnings in the reformation of the Greek religion beginning back in the sixth and fifth centuries B.C. It did not become a significant religious and philosophical movement until around 100 A.D. in the Roman Empire.

Because this isn’t what John and Paul taught or preached.
They, like the gnostics, taught / wrote that Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God, his creator; that (because God was pure and remote spirit and would never sully [him]self with anything material) it fell to Jesus (in the role of the gnostic demiurge meaning 'craftsman') to create the material universe, and to act as mediator between the material universe and God; and more, but that's enough to identify the source of Paul's and John's teachings on these topics.

None of which is found in the synoptics, as you know.
 
They, like the gnostics, taught / wrote that Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God, his creator; that (because God was pure and remote spirit and would never sully [him]self with anything material) it fell to Jesus (in the role of the gnostic demiurge meaning 'craftsman') to create the material universe, and to act as mediator between the material universe and God; and more, but that's enough to identify the source of Paul's and John's teachings on these topics.

None of which is found in the synoptics, as you know.
So you’re wrong about John and Paul being Gnostics. What you just wrote contradicts what they wrote and testified concerning Jesus. The Gospels were all about God becoming man and living among us, He certainly did sully Himself even to the point of death on the Cross.
 
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