Jesus is not God

[Oeste]

John 17:
3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

Goodness @Blu 2, even more proof texting? Just read the two prior verses to see what this is all about:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

Who gives eternal life? Jesus of course.

The Father gives all who seek him to the Son. No one can reach the Father unless through the Son (a strong indicator as to who the Jews were praying to prior to the incarnation).

As the Father glorifies the Son, so will the Son glorify the Father. He is the way, the truth and the life:…

John 20
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

Previously addressed. Jesus speaks as the Son of Man here, not as the Son of God.

It's simply the case that all five versions of Jesus in the NT deny that they're God and never claims to be God.

I think we've poured a lot of cold water on that notion. Arian rationale doesn't hold up under scrutiny. The Trinity resolves scripture without creating conflict. It's why many of these long persecuted Christians, willing to die for their Savior, walked into Nicea as Arians but left as Trinitarians.

On a previous occasion I pointed out to you that "Lord", as Paul expressly states, is a title for Jesus distinct from "God" (a reading affirmed by my Greek dictionary, as I quoted you.)

Who is our spiritual Lord in the Old Testament? We have the same Lord, and the same God in the New Testament as we do the Old. Our Lord is one, our God is one. Nothing about that has changed.

Jesus did eventually become God, on the adoption of the Trinity doctrine in the 4th century.

We've just read scripture that states Jesus created everything. It kind of makes the notion that Jesus only became God in the 4th Century extremely difficult to believe.

I also referred you to the fact that the standard version of the doctrine is called by the churches "a mystery in the strict sense, in that it cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed".

Absolutely! A "mystery" is simply a revealed truth that mankind would not have been able to figure out on its own.

And I added that this is itself a reasonable definition of "nonsense" (and I explained the nonsense here >Why So Much Trinity Bashing?<). But it's the church's nonsense, and so the majority of Christians, unlike the NT, hold that Jesus is God (and the Ghost too).

When I get some time I'll look at your thread, but as usual, I am way behind on two projects that my client will scream bloody murder on. I'll probably stay focused on this thread until then.

 

[Oeste]

God Almighty is the same God Almighty who told Moses, “... I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob…..” – Matthew 22:32, and if God Almighty has already created Jesus with His Command (the Word of God), and Jesus was already walking on earth in Moses’ time, God Almighty would probably have said “God of Jesus” too.

That’s a pretty big, unfounded “if” bolded above, one not found in scripture.

Jesus was not created.

Who do you think God Almighty is??? Jesus??? Based on the words of other people ???

Let me say it again - YOU follow and believe the words of other people more than you believe the words of God Almighty and/or His prophet, Jesus.

No, and this accusation can be easily demonstrated to be false.

I am me, you are you, so you are "other people" to me. Am I following your words?

God Almighty would probably have said “God of Jesus” too.

Only after the incarnation of Jesus as the Son of Man.

Let me ask YOU a simple question – WHO wrote the books of Hebrews??

All scripture is inspired by the Spirit so the author is the same. I’ve spoken with anti-Pauline posters on the forum before and I don’t find their notion of tossing half of the NT into the garbage particularly compelling. Jesus is the Word, and we have the Word just as we were meant to have it.

Need I say more???

If you're expecting Christians to start ripping pages from their bible you may have to.

YOU follow and believe the words of other people more than you believe the words of God Almighty and/or His prophet, Jesus.

No, I've demonstrated this is inaccurate. But I'm curious. Are you red letter only?

That saying of Jesus is NOT about who is more good, it’s about Jesus glorifying his God, which he always does while on earth.

No, the verse starts with a certain ruler calling Jesus as good teacher. Jesus asks this ruler "WHY do you call me good?" It's a QUESTION not a statement or admission that Jesus is not good.

Also, the word "glory" does not appear in these verses at all. It's a complete fabrication that you've created in your mind and doesn't reflect what the written word says at all.

In other words, when a man told Jesus that he’s good, that man was glorifying Jesus, and Jesus told the man not to glorify him as only God Almighty is worthy of all glorifications.

Jesus TOLD the man NOT to glorify him??

Jesus says no such thing at all. He doesn't even suggest it. You are creating a version of events not evidenced by scripture.

OK, you said Trinitarians do not assume on words Jesus did not say, but I think Trinitarians like you assume a lot about what Jesus DID NOT say and depend a lot on what other people said about Jesus when you should focus on what God Almighty and His prophet Jesus, DID SAY about who he is in your Scripture.

I noticed you wrote the word "prophet" in the singular.

Can you show us a verse or two where God says we shouldn't heed his prophets? Do you consider them "other people" not inspired by God?

Also I noticed you use the term "...your Scripture". What do you use for scripture? Do you have any?

1. God Almighty declares –

“I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides me there is no God” – Isaiah 45:5

I like this verse, but let pause here to get a clear answer from you. It states "I am the LORD, and there is no other;"

1. Is Jesus Lord in this verse? If not, who is?
2. Was Jesus ever our Lord?
3. If Jesus was at one time Lord, was the Father Lord also?
4. Is the Lord one or many?

“I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11​

Thank you for bringing up this verse, but I have a few questions.

1. Is Jesus our Savior in this verse? If not, who is?
2. Was Jesus ever our Savior?
3. If Jesus was at one time our Savior, was the Father our Savior also?
4. Do we have one Savior or many?

I'll stop here and await your reply.

 

[Oeste]

I’m afraid (most of) this post highlights only one thing: the problems that develop when God’s Name (probably Yahweh), the Tetragrammaton, is removed from Scripture and replaced with LORD.

The Tetragrammaton does not appear in any extant manuscript of the New Testament.

You know who it means, Oeste.
The Israelites worshipped Yahweh.

Absolutely! They worshipped Yahweh.

At John 3:16, John mentions Him:
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed, but have everlasting life.”

Correct! God is our Lord and Savior and there is no Lord and Savior apart from Him:

“I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11​

and there is no other name under which we can be saved except that of our Lord and Savior:

“And there is salvation in NO ONE ELSE, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Because our Lord is One.

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord". Deu 6:4

​

This is the One whom Jesus called his “Father,” referring to Him as “the only true God.” - John 17:1-3

There is no reference to the Father in this verse, only a reference to God and Christ. You presuppose that God means Father only. Here is the verse again:

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.​

Jesus is as much God as the Father because he came forth from the Father:

I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” (John 16:28)

That is why Jesus is ONE with the Father. He is the Son of God and not merely a Son of Man. In verses 4-5 we see Jesus asking for his glory back, the glory he had prior to his incarnation and birth as a Son of Man, the glory God does not share with another, a glory the Father does not give to another, but can return (not grant) to Jesus, because Jesus is God:

4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.​

What does “only” mean to you, Oeste? Apparently not just the Father, but two others.

"Only" means only one God, and not two Gods, which is what one obtains when one separates Jesus from God. God is one, but triune. "Let us create man in our image..."

Please note there is no biblical basis for believing that angels were created in the image of God. That is an honor bestowed only upon humanity.

 

[jimb]

Sounds exciting! Let’s take a look.

Whoa!

This sounds like a pretty big event here. Who do you say, or who do you believe Christians should say Jesus was before "being found in human form”? It might help our readers if you could elaborate a bit more on the proper understanding of who Jesus was according to this particular verse.


Above every name? Now that’s interesting!

Let readers know if you agree or disagree with this verse. Perhaps the speaker misspoke, forgot to make a few exceptions, or was over selling the name ?



Hmmmm…where have we heard this before? Oh yes! Here it is:

Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear. Isaiah 45:23

That looks like we will give the same worship to Jesus that we give God.


Come, let us bow down in worship,
let us kneel before the Lord our Maker; Psalm 95:6

I'm beginning to see some parallels here @blü 2. But wait...just who is this "Lord our Maker"?


"Before" means Jesus is eternal and not created. By him all things consist: He is our Maker.



What "fulness?" you might ask. This would be the fullness of deity, just as scripture says:

“For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” Colossians 2:9

This tells us Christ has everything that God has, and that all of God's fullness resides in Christ's body. The "fullness" refers to God's complete nature, including his attributes, character, perfection, holiness, power, and love.


This is important! Note Jesus specifically refers to himself as the Son of man here, and not Son of God. The Son of man is fully man and has to be given authority to forgive. After all, Jesus, as son of man, is only man, and man cannot forgive his own sins.

As the Son of God, he's always had that authority.

One more point: Jesus has full authority to forgive sins. It's not the Father forgiving sins "through" Jesus but Jesus forgiving those he wishes to forgive. There is no "In the name of the Lord" prefix that Jesus has to use here, but it all to the glory of the Father because it was the Father who sent him.

This is a great verse to point out the dual nature of Jesus.


Of course! When you see Jesus you have seen the Father. (See John 14:9)


Again, is Jesus Lord, an is he the "one", or do we have two separate and distinct Lords?

I and the Father are one. (John 10:30) We have one God; one Lord and our Lord and God is one. Jesus, as Son of God, is no less spiritual Lord and God than the Father, however the Father is vastly superior to Jesus Son of Man.


John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God;

Now why would Jesus say that?

Because of the verse we just read!

30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...]

Our Lord Jesus and the Lord our God are the same! This does NOT make Jesus the Father or the Father Jesus. It simply makes Jesus God just as the Father is God.

Also, this is a good time to point out that Jesus states he “…proceeded and came forth from God”, and not the heavens or Mary. He was certainly borne by Mary, making him man but he was also begotten by the Father, making him God.

Jesus sits at the right hand of God as the Son of Man because he is fully man. I don’t see where this denies he’s fully God as the Son of God.



Again, Jesus is speaking as the Son of Man, not as the Son of God. If he wanted to know as the Son of God he was fully capable of doing so, just as the Spirit “searches the deep things of God”. Unfortunately, as soon as Jesus grasps for power the gig is up, so he can only do what the Father authorizes or tells him to do if he wishes to conduct his mission successfully.


Please elaborate and tell us why you believe Jesus is no good, and just where he admits to being no good in this verse. If your premise is correct, the verse should read “No one is good but the Father alone.”

This verse shows Jesus is God, not that Jesus is not God. Jesus can’t possibly be no good when he is “one” with the Father unless the Father is no good as well.


Remember when Moses wanted to see God?

“And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.” (Exodus 33:18)​

And how God replies?

And he said, “Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.” (Exodus 33:20)​

Now explain how Jesus, if he is just man, sees the Father and lives. If this is not clear, ask yourself when was the last time you, as man, peeked in on our spiritual Father to see what he was doing.

Either Jesus is contradicting well known and established scripture, or he is God as well as man.


Adam did his own thing, Jesus does not. He only does what he sees (not imagines) the Father doing. The Father doesn’t sin, so Jesus doesn’t sin. That is how Jesus lived his life on earth and it’s what allows him to atone for our sins.



See my answer directly above.


Addressed previously with my quote on John 8:42.


This proves Jesus was fully man. Some folks have a twisted view of the Trinity. They believe the Trinity doctrine states that Jesus is God and only God. This is incorrect. Jesus was fully God and always remains fully God. It is only at the moment of his incarnation, that he became fully man. At no time did Jesus not stay fully God. It was the Son of Man who died on the cross for the sins of mankind.



Why is this incompatible when Jesus is God? He’s not the Father, but he is God.

You will need to elaborate.

These verses clearly show Jesus to be God, yet some still say they can't see God when they see Jesus.

Great post! Well explained and 100% true and accurate! A+

 

[jimb]

The Tetragrammaton does not appear in any extant manuscript of the New Testament.

Absolutely! They worshipped Yahweh.



Correct! God is our Lord and Savior and there is no Lord and Savior apart from Him:

“I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11​

and there is no other name under which we can be saved except that of our Lord and Savior:

“And there is salvation in NO ONE ELSE, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Because our Lord is One.

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord". Deu 6:4

​

There is no reference to the Father in this verse, only a reference to God and Christ. You presuppose that God means Father only. Here is the verse again:

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.​

Jesus is as much God as the Father because he came forth from the Father:

I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” (John 16:28)

That is why Jesus is ONE with the Father. He is the Son of God and not merely a Son of Man. In verses 4-5 we see Jesus asking for his glory back, the glory he had prior to his incarnation and birth as a Son of Man, the glory God does not share with another, a glory the Father does not give to another, but can return (not grant) to Jesus, because Jesus is God:

4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.​

"Only" means only one God, and not two Gods, which is what one obtains when one separates Jesus from God. God is one, but triune. "Let us create man in our image..."

Please note there is no biblical basis for believing that angels were created in the image of God. That is an honor bestowed only upon humanity.

Another great post! Keep on posting God's truth -- the only truth there is!

 

[jimb]

Goodness @Blu 2, even more proof texting? Just read the two prior verses to see what this is all about:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

Who gives eternal life? Jesus of course.

The Father gives all who seek him to the Son. No one can reach the Father unless through the Son (a strong indicator as to who the Jews were praying to prior to the incarnation).

As the Father glorifies the Son, so will the Son glorify the Father. He is the way, the truth and the life:…

Previously addressed. Jesus speaks as the Son of Man here, not as the Son of God.


I think we've poured a lot of cold water on that notion. Arian rationale doesn't hold up under scrutiny. The Trinity resolves scripture without creating conflict. It's why many of these long persecuted Christians, willing to die for their Savior, walked into Nicea as Arians but left as Trinitarians.


Who is our spiritual Lord in the Old Testament? We have the same Lord, and the same God in the New Testament as we do the Old. Our Lord is one, our God is one. Nothing about that has changed.


We've just read scripture that states Jesus created everything. It kind of makes the notion that Jesus only became God in the 4th Century extremely difficult to believe.


Absolutely! A "mystery" is simply a revealed truth that mankind would not have been able to figure out on its own.

When I get some time I'll look at your thread, but as usual, I am way behind on two projects that my client will scream bloody murder on. I'll probably stay focused on this thread until then.

Again, a great explanation of the truth.

 

[jimb]

The OP makes the nonsensical statement that "Jesus is not God". But the Bible says just the opposite: Jesus IS God.

John 1:18, " No one has ever seen God, but the one and only son, WHO IS HIMSELF GOD and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

 

[Yokefellow]

Jesus is his own father because Jesus conceived himself. That is how Kenosis works!

The simple logic required to understand the above statement tells you Jesus is God.

Freaking amateurs around here... no clue what the Trinity is or how to explain it in a simple manner.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:

That’s a pretty big, unfounded “if” bolded above, one not found in scripture.
Jesus was not created.

Of course, Jesus was created by God, that is, by His Will and on His Command - a command which came from God Himself – that’s how God creates anything or anyone, that is, God creates just by uttering a word/command and since the word was uttered by God, we said it’s the Word of God.

It is what Psalm 33:9 said – “For He spoke, and it came to be; He commanded, and it stood firm”.

You are denying God’s ability to create anything or anyone :

- God created Adam WITHOUT the interaction of a man and a woman
- God created Eve WITHOUT the interaction of a woman
- God created Jesus WITHOUT the interaction of a man, and
- God created mankind WITH the interaction of a man and a woman

Do you think God is incapable of creating Jesus just by commanding it to be??

Here’s the thing –
John 1:1 is the same as saying, “In the beginning there was a tree, and the tree was in the forest, and the tree was the forest”, and fast forward to John 1:14, “and the tree became a table” (that is, after someone chopped it down and make it into a table).

What’s big and unfounded, and not even from God Almighty and His prophet, Jesus, is the belief that Jesus is God!!

Oeste said:
No, and this accusation can be easily demonstrated to be false.
I am me, you are you, so you are "other people" to me. Am I following your words?

That’s your ‘demonstration’ that my statement is false??

Are we discussing the same topic here??

Focus, please!! We are discussing of your claim that ‘Jesus is God’ – a claim which is never mentioned nor implied by God Almighty and/or His prophet, Jesus. Therefore, that claim is made by other people, that is, other than God Almighty and His prophet, Jesus. Surely that cannot be too difficult for you to understand, is it??

Oeste said:
Only after the incarnation of Jesus as the Son of Man.

Well, prove it from your scripture!

Oeste said:
All scripture is inspired by the Spirit so the author is the same. I’ve spoken with anti-Pauline posters on the forum before and I don’t find their notion of tossing half of the NT into the garbage particularly compelling. Jesus is the Word, and we have the Word just as we were meant to have it.

‘All scripture is inspired..’ is directed to the ORIGINAL scripture, NOT to the Bible you have today. The Bible you have today is a copy of a copy, of a copy, of a copy …….. of a translated copy of a translated copy ….of the original scripture. By today, the Bible you have is already a mixture of truth and lies. The corruption of the scripture even happened in Jeremiah’s time and this is evidenced when God told Jeremiah to tell his people “‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?” – Jeremiah 8:8

Now, why would God has said that if the scribes (inspired??) have NOT mishandled the scripture??

Oeste said:
If you're expecting Christians to start ripping pages from their bible you may have to.

Hell, no! I expect the Trinitarians like you to focus on what God Almighty and His prophet, Jesus DID say in your scripture and NOT on what other people (in your scripture or outside) said about God Almighty and His prophet Jesus! Unless, of course, if their sayings are in tune with the words of God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus.

Oeste said:
No, I've demonstrated this is inaccurate. But I'm curious. Are you red letter only?

LOL!
I’ve proven you follow and believe the words of other people more than you believe the words of God Almighty and/or His prophet, Jesus.
Don’t believe me?? Then, tell me why when God Almighty has declared that besides Him there’s no God, you still say Jesus is God?

Are you hinting that you know God Almighty better than God Almighty knows Himself??​

Oeste said:
No, the verse starts with a certain ruler calling Jesus as good teacher. Jesus asks this ruler "WHY do you call me good?" It's a QUESTION not a statement or admission that Jesus is not good.

Also, the word "glory" does not appear in these verses at all. It's a complete fabrication that you've created in your mind and doesn't reflect what the written word says at all.
Jesus TOLD the man NOT to glorify him??
Jesus says no such thing at all. He doesn't even suggest it. You are creating a version of events not evidenced by scripture.

Come on, I would expect you to do better than that! One need not have to spell out the word ‘glorify’ to glorify someone or anything. It’s plain common sense, for example, a state can build a statue of its local boy to glorify him as a national hero, and everyone knows that even if the word ‘glory/glorify’ is not spelled out on the statue.

To glorify means to praise someone to the highest degree possible.

To someone like Jesus, all glory should only go to God Almighty. For a ruler (not just any man) to refer Jesus as ‘good teacher’ would be a praise to the highest degree, and to Jesus, the ruler is glorifying him, and that’s why Jesus said ‘only God is good’.

Oeste said:
I noticed you wrote the word "prophet" in the singular.
Can you show us a verse or two where God says we shouldn't heed his prophets? Do you consider them "other people" not inspired by God?

Huh??! I am specifically referring to Jesus here… so, why would I write in the plural ‘prophets’ here??

Also I noticed you use the term "...your Scripture". What do you use for scripture? Do you have any?
Duh??! Are you not a Trinitarian Christian?? Is your Scripture not the Bible?? Am I having a debate with a Hindu, Buddhist… too, that you cannot figure to what I refer to as ‘your scripture’??

1. God Almighty declares –
“I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides me there is no God” – Isaiah 45:5
I like this verse, but let pause here to get a clear answer from you. It states "I am the LORD, and there is no other;"
1. Is Jesus Lord in this verse? If not, who is?

The right question is - whose words are those in Isaiah 45:5?? Those are God Almighty’s Words. So, your question is not even related to the verse.

Oeste said:
3. If Jesus was at one time our Savior, was the Father our Savior also?
2. Was Jesus ever our Lord?

Jesus is lord because he’s a rabbi and the Jews call their rabbi, ‘lord’.

Oeste said:
3. If Jesus was at one time Lord, was the Father Lord also?
4. Is the Lord one or many?

The Father LORD is ONE and ONLY. The king ‘Lord’, the court judge ‘lord’, the rabbi ‘lord’, the landlord and what have you ‘lords’, are many… are you confused??

Oeste said:
3. If Jesus was at one time our Savior, was the Father our Savior also?

“I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11​

Thank you for bringing up this verse, but I have a few questions.

No problem.

Oeste said:
3. If Jesus was at one time our Savior, was the Father our Savior also?
1. Is Jesus our Savior in this verse? If not, who is?

Again, the right question is - whose words are those in Isaiah 43:11?? Those are God Almighty’s Words. So, your question is not even related to the verse.

Oeste said:
2. Was Jesus ever our Savior?

Jesus was only the savior to the people of his times when he was on earth, and that too, if the people believed and listened to him. Likewise, all the prophets that came before Jesus, are the saviors in their respective times. Else, who do you think are the savior to the people of Moses, Abraham, Noah respectively??

God Almighty, on the other hand, is the Only One True Savior for all people of all times.

Oeste said:
3. If Jesus was at one time our Savior, was the Father our Savior also?
4. Do we have one Savior or many?
See above point (2).

I'll stop here and await your reply.
Great!

 

[blü 2]

Sounds exciting! Let’s take a look.

But before we lose ourselves in the detail, where's that quote of even one version of Jesus saying "I am God"? (I've already given you examples of all five NT versions of Jesus saying they're NOT God, but if you wish I'm happy to refer you to them again.)

And wasn't the Trinity doctrine adopted specifically for the purpose of elevating Jesus to God status?

And wasn't this necessary because he didn't have God status until this was done?

And isn't it the case that this didn't happen till the 4th century CE?

 

[jimb]

Jesus is his own father because Jesus conceived himself. That is how Kenosis works!

The simple logic required to understand the above statement tells you Jesus is God.

Freaking amateurs around here... no clue what the Trinity is or how to explain it in a simple manner.

Jesus is NOT His own father. He did not conceive Himself. You assume that ketosis is true but it's only a theory but is not Biblical. If it is, show us where the Bible explicitly says so.

Why doesn't it say, ANYWHERE in the Bible, that Jesus prays to Himself?

You are the simpleton for believing nonsense.

 

[Dimi95]

Jesus is NOT His own father. He did not conceive Himself. You assume that ketosis is true but it's only a theory but is not Biblical. If it is, show us where the Bible explicitly says so.

Why doesn't it say, ANYWHERE in the Bible, that Jesus prays to Himself?

You are the simpleton for believing nonsense.

Can i?

Revelation 21&22

In Revelation 21 it says:
"He who was seated on the throne said, 'I am making everything new!' Then he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true'.
He said to me: 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children'."


In Revelation 22:6-7 we see
"The angel said to me, 'These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets,sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.
Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll."

We see here information that is clearly about 'the Father'.

So let's continue with Revelation 22:12
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

We see that these references clearly speak about 'The Father'

In Revelation 22:16 we have the answer to your question at the very begining of the verse.
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches..."

Take a look at all verses , and take note what is written in Revelation 22:6-7

There are also many other examples.

In math this is called transitivity
If a = b and b = c, then a = c

In other words, if a is related to b by some property, and b is related to c by the same property, then a is related to c by that property.

This has much to do with how we distinguish divine Essence and Energies.

Jesus is not his own Father , rather 'The Father' and 'the Son' are just persons in the 'Trinity' and can be explained through theosis and kenosis.

We know that God is a Spirit , not a name or a title.

 

[blü 2]

Can i?

Revelation 21&22

In Revelation 21 it says:
"He who was seated on the throne said, 'I am making everything new!' Then he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true'.
He said to me: 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children'."


In Revelation 22:6-7 we see
"The angel said to me, 'These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets,sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.
Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll."

We see here information that is clearly about 'the Father'.

So let's continue with Revelation 22:12
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

We see that these references clearly speak about 'The Father'

In Revelation 22:16 we have the answer to your question at the very begining of the verse.
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches..."

Take a look at all verses , and take note what is written in Revelation 22:6-7

There are also many other examples.

In math this is called transitivity
If a = b and b = c, then a = c

In other words, if a is related to b by some property, and b is related to c by the same property, then a is related to c by that property.

This has much to do with how we distinguish divine Essence and Energies.

Jesus is not his own Father , rather 'The Father' and 'the Son' are just persons in the 'Trinity' and can be explained through theosis and kenosis.

We know that God is a Spirit , not a name or a title.

In Revelation the chief figure is God and the other figure is the Lamb ie Jesus. who in 22:16 boasts of being the offspring of David. That's an odd brag for God to make, wouldn't you say?

I'm still waiting for someone to place on the table a quote in which Jesus says, "I am God".

Whoever says it will be contradicting himself, since as I've said many times, and supported with quotes >Jesus Failed Right?<, every version of Jesus in the gospels denies that he's God and never claims to be God. He doesn't get to be God until the invention and adoption of the Trinity doctrine ─ which has the problems I mentioned here >Why So Much Trinity Bashing?< ─ in the 4th century CE.

 

[Dimi95]

In Revelation the chief figure is God and the other figure is the Lamb ie Jesus. who in 22:16 boasts of being the offspring of David. That's an odd brag for God to make, wouldn't you say?

I'm still waiting for someone to place on the table a quote in which Jesus says, "I am God".

Whoever says it will be contradicting himself, since as I've said many times, and supported with quotes >Jesus Failed Right?<, every version of Jesus in the gospels denies that he's God and never claims to be God. He doesn't get to be God until the invention and adoption of the Trinity doctrine ─ which has the problems I mentioned here >Why So Much Trinity Bashing?< ─ in the 4th century CE.

You have proven yourself to mix things up when speaking about these things.
At least to me.

However that does NOT mean that i think bad of you.
But in these discussions you are just not a reliable debator.
You using Bart as reliable source , just adds to that conclusion.

I don't know how Bart is reliable to some here , and even to you..
He has proven many times that he is dishonest and misinterpretator.
Bart is one of the(if not the one) 'scholars' that has been disproven like MANY , MANY , MANY times and he still does not get it.
It seems that he passed that to others also..

 

[blü 2]

You have proven yourself to mix things up when speaking about these things.
At least to me.

Then by all means point to the source of your confusion and I'll sort it out for you.

However that does NOT mean that i think bad of you.
But in these discussions you are just not a reliable debator.
You using Bart as reliable source , just adds to that conclusion.

On what basis do you suggest that Ehrman is not a reliable historian of early Christianity? That he bases his arguments on evidence instead of dogma? What exactly is the problem? What lies, exactly, has he told, in your view? What misinterpretations from a historian's view?

You assert there are "many, many" examples of the vices you assert about his work. Grateful if you could now put some specifics on the table and we can discuss them.

 

[Kenny]

I'm still waiting for someone to place on the table a quote in which Jesus says, "I am God".

There are a couple of points that need to be addressed here.

1) You are referring to the person of Jesus who became human and not what he was before he was in human form (Jesus). As “The Word”, pre-incarnate, he was God.
2) He didn’t come to declare that he was God or to establish God’s Kingdom on this earth. Why would he need to address that directly? To address what you or I need or want?
3) Then there was what he did say that was understood by his peers:

John 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

 

[Dimi95]

Then by all means point to the source of your confusion and I'll sort it out for you.

Ok , that is your opinion.

Let me just say a thing before we continue.

When i started to study Christianity as a whole I rejected from the very start every conclusion(that means Christianity also)

I started from agnostic point of view

On what basis do you suggest that Ehrman is not a reliable historian of early Christianity?

By reading most , if not all he has written or concluded.

He has however given us very good questions that contributed to further study.
But the questions alone mean nothing if they are not propertly answered.

That he bases his arguments on evidence instead of dogma?

Debates and discussions that he himself participated in.

What exactly is the problem?

Misinterpretarion and switching relevant issues to non-relevant.

What lies, exactly, has he told, in your view? What misinterpretations from a historian's view?

Well , for start it has to do with his literal reading and understanding of the Bible while he was studying it.
On that basis he concluded that is not trustworthy and reliable information.
And he changed his belief based on that.
And the rest is just his way to scholarship.

I reject that understanding with clear mind.
I don't belive in that.
The Bible has technical errors , which is not of a big deal.

You assert there are "many, many" examples of the vices you assert about his work. Grateful if you could now put some specifics on the table and we can discuss them.

Yes , for example in his discussion with Peter J Williams he says
"Jesus is not God in the Synoptic Gospels"

Then Peter explains him why that is not accurate , he uses transitivity as i used in my answer that you quoted in the first place.
He realizes what he has said and he just answers 'I did not say that Jesus is not God in one(or all,i don't recall) the Synoptic Gospels' and he goes on discussing something third.
This is recorded , you can see the debate yourself , i think it is 2 hours.

Aples and oranges,that is what i would say on that.

This is just one example , he has done that also with Jimmy Akin and Mike Licona and others.

 

[jimb]

Can i?

Revelation 21&22

In Revelation 21 it says:
"He who was seated on the throne said, 'I am making everything new!' Then he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true'.
He said to me: 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children'."


In Revelation 22:6-7 we see
"The angel said to me, 'These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets,sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.
Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll."

We see here information that is clearly about 'the Father'.

So let's continue with Revelation 22:12
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

We see that these references clearly speak about 'The Father'

In Revelation 22:16 we have the answer to your question at the very begining of the verse.
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches..."

Take a look at all verses , and take note what is written in Revelation 22:6-7

There are also many other examples.

In math this is called transitivity
If a = b and b = c, then a = c

In other words, if a is related to b by some property, and b is related to c by the same property, then a is related to c by that property.

This has much to do with how we distinguish divine Essence and Energies.

Jesus is not his own Father , rather 'The Father' and 'the Son' are just persons in the 'Trinity' and can be explained through theosis and kenosis.

We know that God is a Spirit , not a name or a title.

So you're reducing Scripture interpretation to a mathematical formula? No wonder you're confused!

"I am the Alpha and the Omega". It is mathematically impossible to be both the first and the last.

So much for your mathematical interpretation 0f Scripture!

P.S. God is a name.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Tetragrammaton does not appear in any extant manuscript of the New Testament.

Absolutely! They worshipped Yahweh.



Correct! God is our Lord and Savior and there is no Lord and Savior apart from Him:

“I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11​

and there is no other name under which we can be saved except that of our Lord and Savior:

“And there is salvation in NO ONE ELSE, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Because our Lord is One.

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord". Deu 6:4

​

There is no reference to the Father in this verse, only a reference to God and Christ. You presuppose that God means Father only. Here is the verse again:

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.​

Jesus is as much God as the Father because he came forth from the Father:

I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” (John 16:28)

That is why Jesus is ONE with the Father. He is the Son of God and not merely a Son of Man. In verses 4-5 we see Jesus asking for his glory back, the glory he had prior to his incarnation and birth as a Son of Man, the glory God does not share with another, a glory the Father does not give to another, but can return (not grant) to Jesus, because Jesus is God:

4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.​

"Only" means only one God, and not two Gods, which is what one obtains when one separates Jesus from God. God is one, but triune. "Let us create man in our image..."

Please note there is no biblical basis for believing that angels were created in the image of God. That is an honor bestowed only upon humanity.

Question pertaining to the Trinity. Do you think Jesus had a dual nature?

 

[YoursTrue]

So you're reducing Scripture interpretation to a mathematical formula? No wonder you're confused!

"I am the Alpha and the Omega". It is mathematically impossible to be both the first and the last.

So much for your mathematical interpretation 0f Scripture!

P.S. God is a name.

God is an appellation, like man is an appellation or title. Not a name. I don't know anyone who is named at birth 'man'. Maybe there are people named Man or Woman or Boy or Girl or Transvestite. Maybe you know.