Jesus is not God

[Oeste]

All five NT versions of Jesus deny that they're God and never claim to be God.

No, that is something skeptics and Unitarians claim, not scripture.

For example ─

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Think it through. If this verse tells us Jesus is not God because because there is only one God, the Father, then it is also telling us that the Father is not Lord, because we have only one Lord, Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Does this mean you are on the "The Father is not Lord" side? (see response above).

Jesus is Lord, the Father is Lord, and the Spirit is Lord and Christians have but one Lord though there are many "so-called" Lords.

The Father glorifies the Son:

It is my Father who glorifies me (John 8:54)

Even as Jesus, while on earth, in his incarnation as the Son of Man, glorifies the Father:

"...I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do" (John 17:4)​

So where's the Spirit?

The Spirit is Lord:

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2 Cor 3:17)​

So all are Lord, and the Lord is one, not three.

Mark 9:36 And he took a child, and put him in the midst of them; and taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.

At Mark 9. let's read the verse just prior:

35 Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.”​

Christ humbled himself, and took the role of a servant:

Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" Philippians 2: 6-7

Jesus is calling his servants to be humble just as he is humbled himself, and not to view themselves more highly than they should.

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;

Finally!

I've been quoting this all evening!

30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...]
32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;"

Yes, and once again, the Father, Son and Spirit are all Lord, and the Lord is one.
(See above)

Matthew 20: 23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Yes, it is the Father to grant, just as it was to the Spirit to be our Counselor, and for Christ to be our Savior.

I'm not seeing how this would show Jesus is not God. You'll have to elaborate a bit more.

Matthew 24: 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Jesus is fully man, and no man knows the date and hour, so the date and hour are hidden from the Son of Man.

Luke 18: 18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

This tells us Jesus is God. I went into lengthy detail on this thread in a post not too long ago.

John 5: 19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

Addressed in my prior post. No man can see God and live, yet here is Jesus speaking, alive and seeing the Father.

This tells us is that Jesus is not merely the Son of Man, but the Son of God. It's another statement by Jesus that he is God.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

They attempted to stone Jesus and eventually had him crucified. Not much love for Jesus or the Father.

John 10: 25 Jesus answered them, “... 29 My Father ... is greater than all”.

Addressed in my prior post.

John 14: 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.

Jesus is not the Father, but we see the Father when we see Jesus, because Jesus and the Father are one Lord and one God, and not two Lords and one God.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

Jesus is speaking as the Son of Man. The Son of God was sent and proceeded forth from God, taking form as the Son of man, having been sent by the Father.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

Already explained. See my prior posts # 2216. It's getting late!

However, it should be noted that Jesus voluntarily surrendered his life on the cross, and not because he was "forced" to do this by the Father. He could have backed out if he had wanted to, but thankfully he did not. As a result, all who believe can look forward to eternal salvation through the redemptive works of Christ.

 

[blü 2]

Hi @blü 2 !

Hi!

If Jesus is doing his own thing, he is following himself, not God.

He's doing what an envoy does, representing his boss.

But to save our Unitarian friends, someone needs to harmonize your verse above from a Unitarian perspective, because it harmonizes completely from a Trinitarian one.

There is no reference to or inference of a Trinity in the NT. The Trinity is an addition to Christianity which, beginning in the 2nd century CE, was formalized into a Trinity, arising out of early church politics anxious to elevate Jesus to God status. Ehrman gives a good account of the matter here >

<.

Unitarians, like Trinitarian, are believers in the whole, and not just parts of scripture.

Which results in many versions of Christianity, each of them an attempt at a synthesis from NT sources that are not in fact compatible on a range of matters. One blatant example of irreconcilable NT texts is the nonsense about the genealogies of Joseph in Matthew and Luke, each incompatible with the other and each pointless since out loud and proud Joseph is NOT the father of Jesus anyway, making descent from David irrelevant. Mark's Jesus, as you know, says that a messiah doesn't need descent from David anyway (Mark 12:35-37), though neither Paul nor the other gospel authors agree with him.

And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” (Exodus 33:19-20)​

I don't think the Tanakh has much to do with Christianity. All those purported 'prophecies', for a 'messiah' who is neither a civil, military or religious leader of the Jewish nation nor anointed by the Jewish priesthood, which as you know is the meaning of 'messiah' and in Greek the 'Christ' part of Jesus' title.

So someone needs to explain how Jesus can see the Father, yet live, when no can see His face and live and where everyone who gazed upon Jesus actually saw him...living.

This is not a problem for the Jesus of Paul or the Jesus of John, who, on the gnostic model, pre-existed in heaven with God and (since God was far far too pure to do it [him]self) created the material universe, regardless of Genesis ─ unlike the synoptic Jesuses, of course.

The Jesus of Mark ─ the prototype, you might say ─ may have looked on God when the heavens opened after his baptism (Mark 1:10-11) though the statement is that God's voice was heard, not that God was seen. I don't recall anything to suggest the Jesuses of Matthew or Luke might have done so, but if they did, the answer to your question might lie in their being the only versions of Jesus who had God's Y-chromosome.

Not sure how this ties in. Mankind was given authority over the earth, but all authority comes from God. The original sin was Adam seeking to do his own will rather than the will of the Father.

The Tanakh vs the NT again. Nowhere in the Genesis Garden story does it mention sin, or the fall of man, or death entering the world, or spiritual death &c &c. Nor is there anything of the sort elsewhere in the Tanakh ─ instead there's Ezekiel 18 (not least 18:20) saying sin can't be inherited. In fact the ONLY reason God kicked A&E out of the Garden is set out in Genesis 3:22-23 ─

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”─
23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden​

.
I read somewhere that the "Fall" notion first arose among the Jews of Alexandria c. 120 BCE, from the practicing of midrash, which is where you take a passage from the Tanakh and give it an imaginative and utterly different interpretation. And no one else in the NT supports Paul who briefly mentions it once or twice. Still, Augustine of Hippo was on the money when he fell in love with it c. 400 CE, realizing it would be great for sales.

Well, at the very least, this shows Jesus preexisted.

No, only the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John pre-existed. The Jesus of Mark was an ordinary Jewish male until his baptism and adoption, and nothing suggests the Jesus of Matthew or the Jesus of Luke pre-existed before Mary's divine insemination.

 

[Eli G]

Jesus was next to God in heavens before being a human (John 1:1,2).
Jesus had a God when he was a Jew, and that God was the Father (John 4:21-24).
Jesus talked about his God to his disciples after his resurrection and before ascending to his God (John 20:17).
Jesus in heavens now, has a God (Rev. 3:12).

Where is the God-Jesus in Jesus teachings?
Do you believe in Jesus' God or in any other "god"?

 

[blü 2]

No, that is something skeptics and Unitarians claim, not scripture.

No, that is something scripture expressly states. I gave you some of the quotes. Do you think the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of Matthew were actually saying, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" Do you think the four gospel versions of Jesus were saying "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me"? If you want to claim the matter is ambiguous, quote me any version of Jesus saying "I am God" ─ and please don't cite "Before Abraham was, I am", since that's John's Jesus and he's adamant that he's God's envoy, and is not God. (His statement arises from his being in heaven with God and creating the material universe, so he, and Paul's Jesus, could indeed make that claim, though the synoptic Jesuses could not.)

Think it through. If this verse tells us Jesus is not God because because there is only one God, the Father, then it is also telling us that the Father is not Lord, because we have only one Lord, Jesus Christ.

There is only one king ("God"). There is only one envoy ("Jesus"). Ain't rocket science.

Does this mean you are on the "The Father is not Lord" side? (see response above).

In Paul's view, though not, as far as I recall, any of the other four's, the title of "Lord" is reserved for Jesus. The Greek is "κύριος" / "kurios" which my dictionary renders as "lord, master, ruler, owner, Jesus Christ".

Jesus is Lord.

So says Paul. But Paul's Jesus, like the four gospel Jesuses, is not God. And you haven't quoted me any version of Jesus saying "I am God".

So where's the Spirit?

The Ghost? As I understand it, the ruach of the Tanakh is not a separate entity but a manifestation of the one God.

But just to be clear, the Ghost, like Jesus, is never said to be God in the NT.

"Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" Philippians 2: 6-7"

Ah, the 'kenosis hymn'. That again is Paul's gnostic-flavored Jesus, who pre-existed in heaven with God, and was clearly not God's equal there, or the question of equality with God couldn't have arisen.

By the way, I made some observations on the Trinity doctrine here >Why So Much Trinity Bashing?<.

 

[jimb]

Why is the OP subject even being discussed? Jesus is God. That is what the Bible clearly says and what billions of people accept as the truth.

 

[jimb]

No, that is something skeptics and Unitarians claim, not scripture.


Think it through. If this verse tells us Jesus is not God because because there is only one God, the Father, then it is also telling us that the Father is not Lord, because we have only one Lord, Jesus Christ.



Does this mean you are on the "The Father is not Lord" side? (see response above).

Jesus is Lord, the Father is Lord, and the Spirit is Lord and Christians have but one Lord though there are many "so-called" Lords.

The Father glorifies the Son:

It is my Father who glorifies me (John 8:54)

Even as Jesus, while on earth, in his incarnation as the Son of Man, glorifies the Father:

"...I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do" (John 17:4)​

So where's the Spirit?

The Spirit is Lord:

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2 Cor 3:17)​

So all are Lord, and the Lord is one, not three.



At Mark 9. let's read the verse just prior:

35 Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.”​

Christ humbled himself, and took the role of a servant:

Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" Philippians 2: 6-7

Jesus is calling his servants to be humble just as he is humbled himself, and not to view themselves more highly than they should.


Finally!

I've been quoting this all evening!


Yes, and once again, the Father, Son and Spirit are all Lord, and the Lord is one.
(See above)


Yes, it is the Father to grant, just as it was to the Spirit to be our Counselor, and for Christ to be our Savior.

I'm not seeing how this would show Jesus is not God. You'll have to elaborate a bit more.


Jesus is fully man, and no man knows the date and hour, so the date and hour are hidden from the Son of Man.


This tells us Jesus is God. I went into lengthy detail on this thread in a post not too long ago.


Addressed in my prior post. No man can see God and live, yet here is Jesus speaking, alive and seeing the Father.

This tells us is that Jesus is not merely the Son of Man, but the Son of God. It's another statement by Jesus that he is God.



They attempted to stone Jesus and eventually had him crucified. Not much love for Jesus or the Father.



Addressed in my prior post.


Jesus is not the Father, but we see the Father when we see Jesus, because Jesus and the Father are one Lord and one God, and not two Lords and one God.



Jesus is speaking as the Son of Man. The Son of God was sent and proceeded forth from God, taking form as the Son of man, having been sent by the Father.


Already explained. See my prior posts # 2216. It's getting late!

However, it should be noted that Jesus voluntarily surrendered his life on the cross, and not because he was "forced" to do this by the Father. He could have backed out if he had wanted to, but thankfully he did not. As a result, all who believe can look forward to eternal salvation through the redemptive works of Christ.

It is best not be be baited by some of the people on this forum. They clearly do not know the truth and/or they just want to argue to destroy your faith.

 

[cataway]

Why is the OP subject even being discussed? Jesus is God. That is what the Bible clearly says and what billions of people accept as the truth.

clearly says ? the guys pushing the Trinity are the ones mudding up the clear water when understanding the bible

 

[jimb]

clearly says ? the guys pushing the Trinity are the ones mudding up the clear water in the bible

John 1:18, "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known."

So, the Bible clearly and unequivocally says that Jesus is God. Anyone who disputes that is rejecting God's written word!

 

[jimb]

clearly says ? the guys pushing the Trinity are the ones mudding up the clear water when understanding the bible

Don't blame others for your inability to accept the truth!

 

[cataway]

John 1:18, "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known."

So, the Bible clearly and unequivocally says that Jesus is God. Anyone who disputes that is rejecting God's written word!

John 1:18
KJV
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

looking like you are trying to rewrite to your own advantage

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you see the words I bolded? That’s what the Hebrew (the Bible) states: the soul dies.

No, I'm sorry. Those verses say or mean that the soul can die.

The human soul can never die because it is immortal.

Ezekiel 18:4 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

I have told you this more than once and I will tell you this again.
Whenever the Bible says that the soul that sins shall die, that means that soul will not gain eternal life. It does not mean that soul will cease to exist. No soul cannot ever die because the soul is immortal.

This is really rather simple. That verse means that the soul that sins will not have eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is close to God.
That soul will be spiritually dead, but it will continue to EXIST in the spiritual realm after the body dies. A soul cannot die because it is not physical. Only physical things die.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring to spiritual life, loving God and being close to God.

The soul is eternal, the body perishes. That is why Jesus said:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life).
Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now, let's look at some New Testament verses.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jesus said that a person could lose his own soul if that person does not deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Jesus.
Of course, that means that if a person does the opposite that person will not lose his soul.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Jesus was talking about losing or gaining eternal life.
When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring to spiritual life, loving God and being close to God.

Jesus tells His disciples to deny their selfish desires and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for their selfish desires shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 1:18
KJV
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

looking like you are trying to rewrite to your own advantage

John 1:18, "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known."

That is an altered translation of the verse and it is dishonest and reprehensible.

Trinitarians want to avoid the correct translations of the Bible in favor of translations that have been altered to make Jesus into God.
But it's all for the "Cause" of Trinitarianism so they are true followers of the false doctrines of Christianity, thus denying what the Bible says.

I will stand alongside the JWs and anyone else who wants to fight against the lie that Jesus is God until the day I die.

If no one has ever seen God, then Jesus cannot be God, since we know from the Bible that many people saw Jesus.

Christians have altered the translations of John 1:18 in order to make Jesus into God. This is reprehensible.

Below are some of the translations of John 1:18 which are correct.
These translations are also consistent with Baha'i beliefs about Jesus and God.

John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

 

[Trailblazer]

@blü 2

I love it when people do my work for me, so thanks for those clearly laid out posts that demonstrate that Jesus is not God.

I will fight the lie that Jesus is God till the day I die, but it is nice to have help.

 

[jimb]

John 1:18
KJV
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

looking like you are trying to rewrite to your own advantage

It looks like you're trying to use archaic translation, based on inferior sources and written in a dead language, to your own advantage.

John 1:18...

CSB: No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is himself God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him.
CEV: No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.
ERV: No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.
EASY: Nobody has ever seen God. But God's only Son has shown God to us. He is very near to the Father, and he himself is God.
EXB: No one has ever seen God [God the Father, who is pure spirit; 4:24]. But ·God the only Son [God the one and only; the only Son who is himself God; T God the only begotten] is ·very close to [by the side of; close to the heart of; T in the bosom of] the Father, and he has ·shown us what God is like [made him known].
GNT: No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
LEB: No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known.
MOUNCE: No one has ever seen God. The only Son, himself God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
NCB: No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, who has made him known.
NET: No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.
NIV: No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
NLT: No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.
NRSVUE: No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
TLV: No one has ever seen God; but the one and only God, in the Father’s embrace, has made Him known.

John 1:1, in every single translation has the bolded words in some form...

Here is a selection...

ESV: and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
KJV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (entire verse)
NASB: and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NET: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
NIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NLT: In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NRSVue: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
RSV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
YLT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

In summary, every single translation has Jesus Christ, God's son, as being fully God.

You can deny it and put a different spin on it, but the fact remains: Jesus Christ, God's son, is Himself fully God.

It clearly looks like you are trying to rewrite the truth, as contained in every single translation of God's Word (The Bible) to your own advantage. However, the truth remains: Jesus is God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, but the important thing to remember is that there is no "mirror" here. It is the Son of Man, and not a mirror that reflects.

The mirror is just a word that means that Jesus reflected the Attributes of God.
Jesus made God known by reflecting the Attributes of God.

John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.
NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.
NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.
RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

His dual nature as the Son of God allows him to do this. His ability to see the Father even though no man hath seen the Father shows us he is the Son of God and not merely a Son of Man.

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus has seen God the Father?
I do not believe that anyone has ever seen God.

As a full Son of Man, Jesus could have given over to sin (hence the universal importance of his temptation), but his constant focus, in his incarnate state, to do only what he sees the Father doing guides and limits him. At any point, to do something other than what the Father is doing, is to make his own path, to lose focus on the Father, to no longer follow God, and to sin just like Adam.

I believe that all of that is true, except what you said about his incarnate state.
Jesus was a Manifestation of God, but that is not the same as being God incarnate (God in the flesh).

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh, then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God. We know that many people saw Jesus so that is one way we know that Jesus was not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The other thing we may want to remember here is that Jesus is not partial, mostly, nearly, but "full" deity:

"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily..." (Col 2:9)​

This tells us Jesus is a lot more than a mirror or simple image.

God does not DWELL in anyone bodily, which is how we know that this is just another false verse from Paul.

Yet God is not two full deities, but one God, one Lord, and not two Gods and two Lords, or one God and two Lords:

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord... (Deu 6:4)​

Deu 6:4 does not refer to Jesus, it refers to God.

Only the Lord is God. Jesus is not the Lord and Jesus is not God.

Yet the Father says Jesus IS God:

But about the Son he says,​

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;​

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. (Heb 1:8)​

Heb 1:8 does not refer to Jesus, it refers to God.

The Father never says that Jesus is God, NEVER EVER.

As surely as scripture teaches us Jesus IS our one Lord:

"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him

This is just another false verse from Paul.

1. Jesus is not the Lord.
2. All things were made through God, who is the Lord. Nothing was made through Jesus.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Correctly worded, this verse would say:
"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things were made, and we exist for Him; and Jesus Christ.

Realizing it is incorrect to say "Jesus is NOT God because there is 'One God, the Father' ", anymore than it is to say "The Father is NOT Lord because there is 'One Lord, Jesus Christ'", we can correctly state that Jesus

Who, being in very nature God, ,... (Phi 2:6)​

​

is God, just as the Father says, but not a "so-called" God or Lord:

NIV Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

means that Jesus had God's nature, a divine nature. It does not mean that Jesus was God.

The following translations say that Jesus was in the form of God and like God, which means He was not actually God.
Jesus had the nature of God, since Jesus has a divine nature, as well as a human nature.

Philippians 2:6 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth, as there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'". (1 Cor 8:5)

as such "gods and lords" WILL come under judgement, by our one true God and Lord:

A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; He renders judgment among the “gods..." (Psalm 82:1)​

That is correct. "gods and lords" WILL come under judgement, by our one true God and Lord:

but Jesus is not our one true God and Lord.

Thinking not that his equality with God, as the Son of Man, was something for him, as man, to grasp:

Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" Philippians 2: 6-7​

I covered that verse above.

This equality being a glory that Jesus shared with God before the founding of the world:

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." John 17:5​

Nobody is equal to God.

However, Jesus was pre-existent so the soul of Jesus was with God in the spiritual world before he was born into this world so he may have shared God's glory.

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Even though our Lord and God does not give His glory to another:

"I am the LORD, that is My Name; My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved idols" (Isaiah 42:8)​

Isaiah 42:8 is about God. It is not about Jesus because Jesus is not God.

Because we know Jesus had to humble himself to take on flesh:

"...but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:7)​

Philippians 2:7 is true, but it is not in any way connected to Isaiah 42:8, which is about God.

God never took the form of a servant. only Jesus took the form of a servant.

Striking true the words of John:

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)​

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet we know that our humbled God and servant, and the Father have ALWAYS been one:

"I and the Father are one" John 10:30

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God but Jesus was also a Servant of God, and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus was able to do the works of the Father because the Father was in Him. Jesus said He could do nothing by Himself.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be God.

Because He that humbles himself will be the greatest in the Kingdom:

"The greatest among you will be your servant." (Matthew 23:11)

God never humbled Himself and becomes a servant so that is another way we know that Jesus was not God.

and his name will be above, not most, not some, but every other name, on earth as it is in heaven:

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth" (Philippians 2:9-10)

If God exalted Jesus to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that means that two separate entities were involved -- God and Jesus.

Yet, even though he humbly took the form of a servant, the Son is always the same:

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8)

Because our Lord God does not change:

"I am the Lord, I change not. " Malachi 3:6

Hebrews 13:8 and Malachi 3:6 are about God. They are not about Jesus.
It is really hard to believe that anyone can get theology as messed up as Trinitarians do!

Jesus never was and never will be the Lord God. Only God is the Lord.

Which is why Jesus can correctly say:

Before Abraham was, I AM!

Jesus was before Abraham, since Jesus was pre-existent in the world before Abraham was born into this world.

Yet still have the Father glorify him

It is my Father who glorifies me (John 8:54)

That verse is correct. God the Father glorified Jesus, which means (to any logical person) that Jesus could not have been God!

Even as he, while on earth, in his incarnation as the Son of Man, glorifies the Father:

"...I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do" (John 17:4)

All of what you said above is true, except where you said his incarnation.
Jesus was a Manifestation of God, not an incarnation of God.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 49

All of which is something scripture says of no other prophet, man or angel because preincarnate Jesus was God, just as the incarnate Jesus is fully man and God in form of flesh.

Jesus is not never was and never will be God.
Only God is God and God is one and alone with no equals, none to rival His glory, not even Jesus.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 192-194

 

[Trailblazer]

You can deny it and put a different spin on it, but the fact remains: Jesus Christ, God's son, is Himself fully God.

It clearly looks like you are trying to rewrite the truth, as contained in every single translation of God's Word (The Bible) to your own advantage. However, the truth remains: Jesus is God.

Sorry, but I went to the trouble to do all the work, so I am going to post it now.

One reason I am posting this list is so the reader can read the INCORRECT TRANSLATIONS and see how absurd and contradictory they are, completely defying logic and common sense. It might be funny if it was no so utterly ridiculous.

INCORRECT TRANSLATIONS -- JESUS IS GOD

AMP No one has seen God [His essence, His divine nature] at any time; the [One and] only begotten God [that is, the unique Son] who is in the intimate presence of the Father, He has explained Him [and interpreted and revealed the awesome wonder of the Father].
AMPC No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].
CSB No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is himself God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him.
CJB No one has ever seen God; but the only and unique Son, who is identical with God and is at the Father’s side — he has made him known.
CEV No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.
DLNT No one has ever seen God; the only-born God, the One being in the bosom of the Father— that One expounded Him.
ESV No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
ESVUK No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
EXB No one has ever seen God [C God the Father, who is pure spirit; 4:24]. But ·God the only Son [God the one and only; the only Son who is himself God; T God the only begotten] is ·very close to [by the side of; close to the heart of; T in the bosom of] the Father, and he has ·shown us what God is like [made him known].
GNT No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
ICB No man has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father. And the Son has shown us what God is like.
ISV No one has ever seen God. The uniquely existing God, who is close to the Father’s side, has revealed him.
PHILLIPS So the word of God became a human being and lived among us. We saw his splendour (the splendour as of a father’s only son), full of grace and truth. And it was about him that John stood up and testified, exclaiming: “Here is the one I was speaking about when I said that although he would come after me he would always be in front of me; for he existed before I was born!” Indeed, every one of us has shared in his riches—there is a grace in our lives because of his grace. For while the Law was given by Moses, love and truth came through Jesus Christ. It is true that no one has ever seen God at any time. Yet the divine and only Son, who lives in the closest intimacy with the Father, has made him known.
LSB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
LEB No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known.
MOUNCE No one has ever seen God. The only Son, himself God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
NASB No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.
NCB No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, who has made him known.
NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.
NET No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.
NIRV No one has ever seen God. But the One and Only is God and is at the Father’s side. The one at the Father’s side has shown us what God is like.
NIV No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
NIVUK No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in the closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
NRSVA No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
NRSVACE No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
NRSVCE No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
NRSVUE No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
NTFE Nobody has ever seen God. The only-begotten God, who is intimately close to the father—he has brought him to light.

Look at how absurd these translations are:

• the [One and] only begotten God
• the only unique Son, or the only begotten God,
• the only Son who is himself God; T God the only begotten]
• the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father,
• The only-begotten God, who is intimately close to the father—he has brought him to light.

God was begotten?

• the only-born God,

God was born?

CORRECT TRANSLATIONS -- JESUS IS NOT GOD

KJ21 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.
ASV No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
BRG No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
DARBY No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, *he* hath declared [him].
DRA No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
EHV No one has ever seen God. The only-begotten Son, who is close to the Father’s side, has made him known.
GNV No man hath seen God at any time: that only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
GW No one has ever seen God. God’s only Son, the one who is closest to the Father’s heart, has made him known.
HCSB No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son— the One who is at the Father’s side— He has revealed Him.
JUB No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.
KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
AKJV No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
LSB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
TLB No one has ever actually seen God, but, of course, his only Son has, for he is the companion of the Father and has told us all about him.
MSG We all live off his generous abundance, gift after gift after gift. We got the basics from Moses, and then this exuberant giving and receiving, This endless knowing and understanding— all this came through Jesus, the Messiah. No one has ever seen God, not so much as a glimpse. This one-of-a-kind God-Expression, who exists at the very heart of the Father, has made him plain as day.
MEV No one has seen God at any time. The only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.
NOG No one has ever seen God. God’s only Son, the one who is closest to the Father’s heart, has made him known.
NABRE No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him.
NCB No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, who has made him known.
NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.
NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.
NMB No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.
NRSVUE No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
OJB No one has ever seen Hashem [Ex 33:20]. It is Elohim the Ben Yachid [who shares the nature of Hashem, the Chochman Ben Elohim at his side, see very importantly Mishle 8:30; 30:4)], it is he, the one being in the kheyk (bosom) of HaAv, this one is Hashem’s definitive midrash (exegesis).
RGT No one has yet seen God at any time. The Only Begotten Son, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
RSVCE No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
VOICE God, unseen until now, is revealed in the Voice, God’s only Son, straight from the Father’s heart.
WEB No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has declared him.
WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.
WYC No man saw ever God [No man ever saw God], but the one begotten Son, that is in the bosom of the Father, he hath told out.
YLT God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.

John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Trailblazer]

Here is a selection...

ESV: and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
KJV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (entire verse)
NASB: and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NET: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
NIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NLT: In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NRSVue: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
RSV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
YLT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

The Word was God, but Jesus was not God.

Jesus was the Word only in the sense that He was a Manifestation of God, not God incarnate.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, the Word was made flesh because God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh, then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God. We know that many people saw Jesus so that is one way we know that Jesus was not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[blü 2]

Why is the OP subject even being discussed? Jesus is God. That is what the Bible clearly says and what billions of people accept as the truth.

That's simply wrong. Jesus didn't officially become God until the adoption of the Trinity notion in the 4th century. There is not a single example of any version of Jesus in the NT saying "I am God". Instead all five versions state that they are NOT God.

I bet you ten imaginary dollars you can't produce even one example from the NT of Jesus saying "I am God". Do you think the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of Matthew when on the cross cried out, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" Or that all four gospel versions said "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me"? And here again is a link to all five versions of Jesus denying that they're God: >Jesus Failed Right?<. Do you think that in each case Jesus was lying, being deliberately deceptive? That his mission was based on such a fundamental deceit?

Above (#2,222) I linked a talk by Ehrman on the political processes of the early church that led to the Trinity doctrine. You might find it informative too.

 

[JerryMyers]

It looks like you're trying to use archaic translation, based on inferior sources and written in a dead language, to your own advantage.

John 1:18...

CSB: No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is himself God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him.
CEV: No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.
ERV: No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.
EASY: Nobody has ever seen God. But God's only Son has shown God to us. He is very near to the Father, and he himself is God.
EXB: No one has ever seen God [God the Father, who is pure spirit; 4:24]. But ·God the only Son [God the one and only; the only Son who is himself God; T God the only begotten] is ·very close to [by the side of; close to the heart of; T in the bosom of] the Father, and he has ·shown us what God is like [made him known].
GNT: No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
LEB: No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known.
MOUNCE: No one has ever seen God. The only Son, himself God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
NCB: No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, who has made him known.
NET: No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.
NIV: No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
NLT: No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.
NRSVUE: No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
TLV: No one has ever seen God; but the one and only God, in the Father’s embrace, has made Him known.

John 1:1, in every single translation has the bolded words in some form...

Here is a selection...

ESV: and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
KJV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (entire verse)
NASB: and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NET: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
NIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NLT: In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NRSVue: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
RSV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
YLT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

In summary, every single translation has Jesus Christ, God's son, as being fully God.

You can deny it and put a different spin on it, but the fact remains: Jesus Christ, God's son, is Himself fully God.

It clearly looks like you are trying to rewrite the truth, as contained in every single translation of God's Word (The Bible) to your own advantage. However, the truth remains: Jesus is God.

Still mumbling nonsense, are you?? Stop making yourself sound like someone incapable of thinking!

Here’s the thing – Jesus IS NOT God!! Why??

- because God Almighty NEVER says Jesus is God!

- because Jesus himself NEVER says or implies he’s God!

- because in your own Bible, Jesus denied he’s God!!

So, if Jesus already denied he’s God in your own Bible (don’t ignore that fact), do you think the likes of John 1:1 and John 1:18 are saying Jesus is God??! John 1:1 and John 1:18 are NOT even the words of Jesus!! Don’t be so gullible!! THINK!!

Looks like Trinitarians like you believe the words of other people rather than the words of Jesus!!