Jesus is not God

[Oeste]

Jesus, as the Son of Man, perfectly reflects God's glory. He cannot be anything but good unless whatever he reflects is not so good.

I am not disputing that,

Then Jesus is good, and Jesus tells us exactly what that means.

but since Jesus perfectly reflects God's glory that means that Jesus is not God, since a reflection of God's glory is not God.

Well, if it's not God's glory Jesus is reflecting, whose glory is he reflecting??

If I look in the mirror I see a perfect reflection of myself,

But we're not talking about Jesus looking at a reflection of himself in a mirror. HE is reflecting God's glory, so your analogy doesn't apply.

I am standing outside the mirror and my reflection is in the mirror.

Then the mirror is doing the reflecting, not you, and as @cataway has already pointed out, mirrors do not do "perfect reflections", since they invariably get things backwards.

On the other hand, Jesus is the exact representation of God's glory and being, not a backwards one, and he's not a mirror. He see's his Father in heaven, yet no man has seen God. He can only do this as the begotten Son of God. He also prays and worships God, because he is the Son of Man. He has a dual nature. He is man and he is God, not a hybrid demiurge, not part man and/or part God, but fully man and fully God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, if it's not God's glory Jesus is reflecting, whose glory is he reflecting??

It was God's glory that Jesus was reflecting.

But we're not talking about Jesus looking at a reflection of himself in a mirror. HE is reflecting God's glory, so your analogy doesn't apply.

No, we're not talking about Jesus looking at a reflection of himself in a mirror. I was only using that to get my point across.
My point was that a perfect image of God is not God, it is the perfect image of God.

Then the mirror is doing the reflecting, not you, and as @cataway has already pointed out, mirrors do not do "perfect reflections", since they invariably get things backwards.

Actually, I just remembered where I got the idea of the mirror, since this is explained in the Baha'i Writings in a chapter called 27: THE TRINITY.

"God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror.All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ.Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. "

(That was only part of the chapter. You can read the whole chapter on the link below.)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115

In the passage above, God is the Sun of Reality, the Essence of Oneness,

In the passage above Jesus is the Perfect Man is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible.

On the other hand, Jesus is the exact representation of God's glory and being, not a backwards one, and he's not a mirror. He see's his Father in heaven, yet no man has seen God. He can only do this as the begotten Son of God. He also prays and worships God, because he is the Son of Man. He has a dual nature. He is man and he is God, not a hybrid demiurge, not part man and/or part God, but fully man and fully God.

I agree with all of the above, except where you said:
"He has a dual nature. He is man and he is God, not a hybrid demiurge, not part man and/or part God, but fully man and fully God."

Yes, Jesus has a dual nature, one nature human and the other nature divine, but that does not mean that Jesus is man and he is God.
No, Jesus is not a hybrid. Jesus is a man with a dual nature, one nature human and the other nature divine.

Jesus is not fully man and fully God because that is logically impossible.
Jesus is a man who has a human nature and a divine nature, Jesus is not God.

 

[Muffled]

I believe my concept is God made and the Trinity is man made.
Jesus was not and never will be God.

I believe that is because you do not believe what God says.

 

[Muffled]

The Trinity is not a metaphor, it is a reality. Your body has many parts, yet you are one body.

God is one entity, composed of three parts: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Explain this: Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." John 1:3 "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Or more fully, John 1:1, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

This is not an easy concept to grasp, but clearly you have not grasped it. Ask God to enlighten you about this.

I believe he has enlightened me.

 

[Muffled]

The question is easily settled.

In an earlier post, I set out the NT quotes where each of the five versions of Jesus denies he's God >Jesus Failed Right?<.

And I've previously pointed out the absurdity of the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of Matthew saying on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" and of each of the four gospel versions praying to himself, "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me."

Now I invite you to quote me Jesus in the NT saying "I am God".

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

I don't agree that you arguments are valid.

 

[jimb]

You have a Jewish background, Why do all the Jewish religions since the time of Moses Believe this one thing: One God One Person?

"all the Jewish religions"? There is one Jewish religion, although it is subdivided in orthodox, conservative, and reformed.

Judaism claims that there is "one God, one Person", but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true. IMHO, Jews wait for a Messiah who has already come (and gone).

Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah. This was the belief of the first "Christians", who were all Jews.

 

[jimb]

I believe he has enlightened me.

If you don't accept the Trinity. I don't agree that God has enlightened you.

 

[Eli G]

Jesus was a man, he was under the Law of Moses since he was a Jew born.

Was Jesus trinitarian?

John 4:19 The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

 

[jimb]

Jesus was a man, he was under the Law of Moses since he was a Jew born.

Was Jesus trinitarian?

John 4:19 The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

Interesting that you intentionally omit verses 25 and 26! "The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (the one called Christ); “whenever he comes, he will tell us everything.” Jesus said to her, “I, the one speaking to you, am he.”

Jesus declares that He is the Jewish Messiah! (To a (despised, low-caste) Samaritan woman, no less!) Obviously, He was (at that time) not merely a man.

He was temporarily a man to accomplish God the Father's purpose: the forgiveness of all sin. Both before His birth and after His resurrection, He was/is God.

 

[IsraelMoses]

Hello @walt,




Exactly right @walt. Proof texting has been with us for ages.


You're asking me to describe God, and you're right! It's much easier to describe the created gods of the pagans then it is to describe the Christian God. After all, we created the pagan gods and we should be able to easily describe them. They'll look a lot like us.



Earlier you told us the following:



As Christians, Jesus is our Rock, Foundation and Truth, just as you stated. As a matter of fact, Jesus told us “I am the way and the truth and the life..." so it's an important concept for us to remember and have.

So I was rather surprised when you suggested we only use the words of Jesus. I couldn't understand why anyone would do this.

Don't get me wrong. When you're in class discussing scripture, taking on the role of Jesus, a Pharisee, a common Roman or gentile, a Christian, an Emperor, or an apostle can help students learn scripture from various perspectives in fun and dramatic ways. There were a lot of powerful groups with different interests and dynamics during the early church, and this type of exercise enriches the scripture by allowing students to imagine what it was like to live in ancient times, and why certain characters spoke and acted as they did. One favorite exercise is to have one person take on the role of James while the other takes on the role of Paul.

But what if all voices were silenced, and only one person was allowed to speak?

Why you would lose all context. Jesus might call someone a hypocrite, and you would have no idea why. He might reprove a Pharisee, again you might not know why. He might be crying in the courtyard, again you're at a loss. He may be walking with the apostles swirling, talking and joking around him, but if he's only smiling you have no idea why.

In fact, you may wonder why he's here in the first place, because you haven't listened to John the Baptist when only Jesus is allowed to speak.

That a lot of history, culture, and scripture to miss. But there's a solution. It's in the words of Jesus:

"Scripture cannot be broken" Jesus @ John 10:35

Jesus' statement at John 10:35 is short and parenthetical. For the believing Christian, it means scripture must be taken as a whole and cannot be ripped apart, broken, or separated from other scripture. As one writer put it:

Jesus is saying, every word of God written in the Scripture stands immutable and indestructible in its eternal verity. No word of it be dissolved by any human authority. Scripture will not be affected by criticism or denial of theology.​

God's word cannot be broken @walt. We had the first breakage of God's word in the garden and I see no need to continue that pattern here. I'm not judging your personal theology, I believe you study hard and you've shown you know and understand a lot about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

It's just that from my perspective, God requires us to be adorned in full armor, and for that we need the entirety of His word. I see no need to rip off my breast plate or helmet to pick up a glove. We have anti-Pauline acolytes on this forum, who insists we throw this book or that away in the hope of keeping arguments more favorable to their narrowed doctrine. I do not abide them.

Again, if you can find 5 verses from Jesus that tell us it's fine to sweep the prophets under the bus, then yes, I'd be happy to engage. But sweeping them under the bus is exactly what I feel we would be doing, and I would be doing something Jesus told me specifically not to do: break scripture.

So for these reasons I must respectfully decline. I'll be happy to discuss the Trinity with you, but if we're discussing Jesus and if we agree that Jesus is our truth, then from my perspective, all scripture is on the table.

 

[IsraelMoses]

Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.


Psalm 82:6 I have said: You are gods and all of you the sons of the most High.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods?

We all come from the same source, same Spirit of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as He prefers us to call Him.
As a kid, I used to wonder how can God be every place at the same time. I was thinking, stuck in the tangible, didn't
realize, God is Spirit. A lady visited Detroit and a homeless person, asked her about tithes. She said, she knew that
was God, because she hadn't been paying her tithes, regularly.

A another lady I had met in a city, along with a guy I had brought along, the next time said to me,
"Please don't bring him back, the next time you come." I had noticed that, he hardly opened his mouth with her friend
in the back seat, as I drove her home. Her lady friend had a kid. He never said anything about her, later.
I had to figure it out many years later, if a lady had a kid, nothing doing. There was a pattern of behavior, I had to figure out.
He never brought up the subject about meeting women, that had children. About 40 years later, the Lord
said to me, "That was me. I told you that." God didn't want me to bring the guy with me, so He used the lady's mouth to speak.

The question of who was Jesus' Father needs to be answered, by those who want to label Jesus, as just a man,
Jewish, Black, White, etc. Mary was more than, just a virgin. Just a virgin means that she had sin, and birthing Jesus ???
She was divine in origin.

 

[cataway]

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.” ummm, guy's .....something is missing . gasp the Bible must be wrong , NOT...
should it read WE and the father are one ?
how could you possibly get 3 God persons when ''I and the Father'' can only add up to two ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm confused. What does what I said about JW beliefs have to do with Jesus' followers being hated?

Jesus was hated for his beliefs, thus his followers would also be hated for their beliefs - John 15:19-20
Even back in Daniel's day (Dan. 12;10) the Bible is frank in letting us know the wicked will continue to act wickedly
So, if the future was left in man's hands (Ecc. 8:9) good future prospects would be grim indeed - Jeremiah 29:11
Because the future is bright for the humble meek is why we are all invited to pray to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev.22:20
Jesus to come and bring healing (Not healing for Heaven) but for healing right here on Earth for earth's nations - Rev. 22:2

www.jw.org

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........................................................................................................................................
John 1:1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

In the Bible I find God had NO beginning at Psalm 90:2
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus was 'IN' the beginning but Not 'before ' the beginning as his God was - Rev. 3:14 B
At John 17:11; 21-23 Jesus prays his followers be one as he and his God are one
Surely Jesus was Not praying they all become God but they could be one in purpose, unity, belief, faith, agreement, etc.

 

[cataway]

oh i know what is its that new math 1+1=3

 

[Oeste]

It was God's glory that Jesus was reflecting.

Yes, but the important thing to remember is that there is no "mirror" here. It is the Son of Man, and not a mirror that reflects. His dual nature as the Son of God allows him to do this. His ability to see the Father even though no man hath seen the Father shows us he is the Son of God and not merely a Son of Man. As a full Son of Man, Jesus could have given over to sin (hence the universal importance of his temptation), but his constant focus, in his incarnate state, to do only what he sees the Father doing guides and limits him. At any point, to do something other than what the Father is doing, is to make his own path, to lose focus on the Father, to no longer follow God, and to sin just like Adam.

The other thing we may want to remember here is that Jesus is not partial, mostly, nearly, but "full" deity:

"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily..." (Col 2:9)​

This tells us Jesus is a lot more than a mirror or simple image.

Yet God is not two full deities, but one God, one Lord, and not two Gods and two Lords, or one God and two Lords:

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord... (Deu 6:4)​

Yet the Father says Jesus IS God:

But about the Son he says,​

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;​

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. (Heb 1:8)​

​

As surely as scripture teaches us Jesus IS our one Lord:

"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him

Realizing it is incorrect to say "Jesus is NOT God because there is 'One God, the Father' ", anymore than it is to say "The Father is NOT Lord because there is 'One Lord, Jesus Christ'", we can correctly state that Jesus

Who, being in very nature God, ,... (Phi 2:6)​

​

is God, just as the Father says, but not a "so-called" God or Lord:

"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth, as there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'". (1 Cor 8:5)​

as such "gods and lords" WILL come under judgement, by our one true God and Lord:

A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; He renders judgment among the “gods..." (Psalm 82:1)​

Thinking not that his equality with God, as the Son of Man, was something for him, as man, to grasp:

Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" Philippians 2: 6-7​

This equality being a glory that Jesus shared with God before the founding of the world:

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." John 17:5​

Even though our Lord and God does not give His glory to another:

"I am the LORD, that is My Name; My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved idols" (Isaiah 42:8)​

Because we know Jesus had to humble himself to take on flesh:

"...but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:7)​

Striking true the words of John:

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)​

Yet we know that our humbled God and servant, and the Father have ALWAYS been one:

"I and the Father are one" John 10:30​

Because He that humbles himself will be the greatest in the Kingdom:

"The greatest among you will be your servant." (Matthew 23:11)​

and his name will be above, not most, not some, but every other name, on earth as it is in heaven:

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth" (Philippians 2:9-10)​

Yet, even though he humbly took the form of a servant, the Son is always the same:

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8)​

Because our Lord God does not change:

"I am the Lord, I change not. " Malachi 3:6​

Which is why Jesus can correctly say:

Before Abraham was, I AM! ​

Yet still have the Father glorify him

It is my Father who glorifies me (John 8:54)​

Even as he, while on earth, in his incarnation as the Son of Man, glorifies the Father:

"...I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do" (John 17:4)

All of which is something scripture says of no other prophet, man or angel because preincarnate Jesus was God, just as the incarnate Jesus is fully man and God in form of flesh.

 

[blü 2]

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

If you've read the gospel of John then you know that's wrong. The gnostic-influenced author of John conceives of God as an immensely remote, immensely spiritual, immensely pure being who would never sully [him]self with a material universe ─ which is why the Jesus of John, like the Jesus of Paul, but unlike the synoptic Jesuses, creates the material universe, regardless of Genesis, and thereafter acts as intermediary between God and the material world and its humans.

All five NT versions of Jesus regard themselves as God's envoy and all five deny that they're God. For John's Jesus, for instance ─

John 5:
19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5
30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me ...

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “... 29 My Father ... is greater than all”.

John 17:
3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

 

[blü 2]

The other thing we may want to remember here is that Jesus is not partial, mostly, nearly, but "full" deity:

All five NT versions of Jesus deny that they're God and never claim to be God.

For example ─

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Mark 9:36 And he took a child, and put him in the midst of them; and taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;
30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...]
32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;"

Matthew 20: 23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24: 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18: 18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 5: 19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

John 10: 25 Jesus answered them, “... 29 My Father ... is greater than all”.

John 14: 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I looked up all the scriptures you suggested I read in that post and they are not even remotely related to whether or not the soul dies.

Trailblazer, yes they are.
I asked you to use a Hebrew-English interlinear.

(That way, you could not say “it’s a JW idea.”)

The following is from BibleHub.com
(I chose Numbers 19:13, since the version you quoted, does use the word “soul” but only once in its rendering.)


Hebrew

“Anyone
כָּֽל־ (kāl-)
Noun - masculine singular construct
Strong's 3605: The whole, all, any, every

who touches
הַנֹּגֵ֡עַ (han·nō·ḡê·a‘)
Article | Verb - Qal - Participle - masculine singular
Strong's 5060: To touch, lay the hand upon, to reach, violently, to strike

a corpse,
בְּמֵ֣ת (bə·mêṯ)
Preposition-b | Verb - Qal - Participle - masculine singular
Strong's 4191: To die, to kill

the body
בְּנֶפֶשׁ֩ (bə·ne·p̄eš)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular construct
Strong's 5315: A soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

of a person
הָאָדָ֨ם (hā·’ā·ḏām)
Article | Noun - masculine singular
Strong's 120: Ruddy, a human being

who
אֲשֶׁר־ (’ă·šer-)
Pronoun - relative
Strong's 834: Who, which, what, that, when, where, how, because, in order that

has died,
יָמ֜וּת (yā·mūṯ)
Verb - Qal - Imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 4191: To die, to kill

and does not
וְלֹ֣א (wə·lō)
Conjunctive waw | Adverb - Negative particle
Strong's 3808: Not, no

purify
יִתְחַטָּ֗א (yiṯ·ḥaṭ·ṭā)
Verb - Hitpael - Imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 2398: To miss, to sin, to forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, lead astray, condemn

himself,
אֶת־ (’eṯ-)
Direct object marker
Strong's 853: Untranslatable mark of the accusative case

defiles
טִמֵּ֔א (ṭim·mê)
Verb - Piel - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 2930: To be or become unclean

the tabernacle
מִשְׁכַּ֤ן (miš·kan)
Noun - masculine singular construct
Strong's 4908: A residence, the Tabernacle

of the LORD.
יְהוָה֙ (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's 3069: YHWH

That
הַהִ֖וא (ha·hi·w)
Article | Pronoun - third person feminine singular
Strong's 1931: He, self, the same, this, that, as, are

person
הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ (han·ne·p̄eš)
Article | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 5315: A soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

must be cut off
וְנִכְרְתָ֛ה (wə·niḵ·rə·ṯāh)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Nifal - Conjunctive perfect - third person feminine singular
Strong's 3772: To cut, to destroy, consume, to covenant

from Israel.
מִיִּשְׂרָאֵ֑ל (mî·yiś·rā·’êl)
Preposition-m | Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's 3478: Israel -- 'God strives', another name of Jacob and his desc

He remains
יִהְיֶ֔ה (yih·yeh)
Verb - Qal - Imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 1961: To fall out, come to pass, become, be

unclean,
טָמֵ֣א (ṭā·mê)
Adjective - masculine singular
Strong's 2931: Unclean

because
כִּי֩ (kî)
Conjunction
Strong's 3588: A relative conjunction

the water
מֵ֨י (mê)
Noun - masculine plural construct
Strong's 4325: Water, juice, urine, semen

of purification
נִדָּ֜ה (nid·dāh)
Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 5079: Rejection, impurity, personal, moral

has not
לֹא־ (lō-)
Adverb - Negative particle
Strong's 3808: Not, no

been sprinkled
זֹרַ֤ק (zō·raq)
Verb - QalPass - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 2236: Be here and there, scatter, sprinkle, strew

on him,
עָלָיו֙ (‘ā·lāw)
Preposition | third person masculine singular
Strong's 5921: Above, over, upon, against

and his uncleanness
טֻמְאָת֥וֹ (ṭum·’ā·ṯōw)
Noun - feminine singular construct | third person masculine singular
Strong's 2932: Religious impurity

is still on him.”
ע֖וֹד (‘ō·wḏ)
Adverb
Strong's 5750: Iteration, continuance, again, repeatedly, still, more
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Do you see the words I bolded? That’s what the Hebrew (the Bible) states: the soul dies.

I can show this to you, in every one of these verses.

The Greek Scriptures (NT) do not supersede the Hebrew (OT); they are in complete agreement with this understanding. One helps explain the other.

RE: the NT…

Jesus’ own words show the soul dies. Talking about his own life, he said at John 10:11…

11”I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his life in behalf of the sheep.”


Matthew 16:26….”forfeits his life”

“Psychen” is the Greek word used… it is translated as “soul”

See Strongs for the Biblical usage of this word….

Strong's Greek: 5590. ψυχή (psuché) -- breath, the soul

Revelation 16:3 speaks about ‘souls dying’, referencing “all living things in the sea”.

I hope you’re having a good day.

 

[Oeste]

John 5:
19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

Hi @blü 2 !


If Jesus is doing his own thing, he is following himself, not God.

But to save our Unitarian friends, someone needs to harmonize your verse above from a Unitarian perspective, because it harmonizes completely from a Trinitarian one. Unitarians, like Trinitarian, are believers in the whole, and not just parts of scripture.

And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” (Exodus 33:19-20)​

So someone needs to explain how Jesus can see the Father, yet live, when no can see His face and live and where everyone who gazed upon Jesus actually saw him...living.

I suspect most Unitarians will claim Jesus doesn't really see the Father at all, but I could be wrong. But here's a hint:

The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” (Exodus 33:14)​

​

Jesus says, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. (Mat 11:28)​

Here's a bonus question for you and our Unitarian friends:

Who is the Lord that gives us rest, and just how many Lords do Christians have when we have but one Lord and our Lord is one?:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord... "(Deu 6:4)​

​

"...and One Lord, Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 8:6)​

John 5
30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

Not sure how this ties in. Mankind was given authority over the earth, but all authority comes from God. The original sin was Adam seeking to do his own will rather than the will of the Father.

John 6
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me ...

Well, at the very least, this shows Jesus preexisted. I suspect this will be a complete revelation to our Bahai friends here. In any event, Jesus is showing that he is doing the will of God, not his own will, which is exactly what Adam and Eve ended up doing...their own will. This shows us Jesus is man, something Trinitarians need not be convinced of since we already believe Jesus is man.

It's just that the harmonization of scripture comes much easier because we also know Jesus is God.

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

Excellent verse showing Jesus is God! Let's look at another verse to see this distinction:

"In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” Genesis 3:19

Genesis 3:19 and John 8:42 shows the distinction between the Adam and the sons of man and Jesus, who is the only begotten Son of God.

One proceeded from dust and had to have the breath of life blown into him, and the other proceeded from God and needed no life to be blown in. As a side note, we see Jesus proceeding forth from God, and NOT proceeding forth from the heavens, quashing any belief that Jesus is an angel from heaven.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “... 29 My Father ... is greater than all”.

Jesus is fully man, so as man, the Father is greater.

Our Unitarian friends need to harmonize this with that statement that Jesus has equality with God, and the fact that the Father Himself states Jesus is God:

Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" Philippians 2: 6-7​

​

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;​

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. (Heb 1:8)​

Nothing in your post or this thread addresses this for Unitarians

John 17:
3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

The Son of God was sent. He proceeded forth from true God, not simply from the heavens like an angel, and he humbled himself to take the form of man.

John 20
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

I addressed earlier. If I find the post I will put an edit (in red). The problem is that this thread is very long and it takes time to find things. But the upshot is this:

Jesus says "My God and your God" and not "Our God". Jesus can say "My God" because he is speaking as the Son of Man, and all men have but one God. But he says "Your God" rather than "Our God" because he is always careful to distinguish the Son of Man from the Son of God. "Our God" is not something Jesus says except when he is giving the model prayer, and this only because he prefixes this with the statement "This is how YOU should pray", and not "This is how WE should pray".

This verse shows Jesus has a dual nature that is just as fully God as he is fully man.