Jesus is not God

[walt]

As I see it, the problem is that we try to understand "Jesus" and forget who Jesus was before he became Jesus.

Who was Jesus?

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.
:14 and the Word became flesh...

Can we start there? He was "God".

Hello my friend Kenny good to hear from you, That is a great scripture to start with.. if you read John 1:1 in the Greek language it reads, in the beginning was the word and the Word was with the God in greek [ ho theos ], and the Word was God. Bibles that translate into English drop the [ the ] of the God, this is not correct, for the Greek language is what the Apostle John wrote In and reflects the most correct understanding.

This is why so many different English translations have words so differently at John 1:1

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

I will post in the next hour, the differences in John 1:1 in so many different English translations they agree and they totally do not agree with each other.

this scripture John 1:1 reflects that.. and the word was God. [ not the God ] Jesus is not called [ the God ] at John 1:1, he is referred to as God
[ theos ] in Greek. I looked through the Bible and I found Moses called God [ theos ], the word [ theos ] is used for Paul and Barnabas.

God spoke to Moses and told him I have made you a God to pharaoh Exodus 7:1, Does that make Moses is another God? if God says it, I would say that it is the truth. God says somewhere else in the Bible there's only one God! and besides me there is no one else. does that make God's words to Moses incorrect? I think not! God's words to Moses does not change the fact throughout the whole Bible there is only one Almighty God, Only One Most High, using Jesus words in a prayer to his father at John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. KJV

Why would Jesus pray these words for all of us to read and purposely leave out words of him being God Almighty, or saying he is the Most High or using his words at John 17:3 that they may know thee the only true God. [ or calling himself the only true God, which he never does. ].

The angel that spoke to Moses said to Moses I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, if an angel can say something like that, can't Jesus say all the things he said? and still be what the Bible teaches, John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

My purpose for saying these words is just to express there is another way to look at things, not all thinking is set in stone, before I believed just like you.

 

[YoursTrue]

He explicitly said, "I am in God, and I and the Father are one; we are particular relatives!"

He did?

 

[walt]

Hello my friend Kenny good to hear from you, That is a great scripture to start with.. if you read John 1:1 in the Greek language it reads, in the beginning was the word and the Word was with the God in greek [ ho theos ], and the Word was God. Bibles that translate into English drop the [ the ] of the God, this is not correct, for the Greek language is what the Apostle John wrote In and reflects the most correct understanding.

This is why so many different English translations have words so differently at John 1:1

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

I will post in the next hour, the differences in John 1:1 in so many different English translations they agree and they totally do not agree with each other.

this scripture John 1:1 reflects that.. and the word was God. [ not the God ] Jesus is not called [ the God ] at John 1:1, he is referred to as God
[ theos ] in Greek. I looked through the Bible and I found Moses called God [ theos ], the word [ theos ] is used for Paul and Barnabas.

God spoke to Moses and told him I have made you a God to pharaoh Exodus 7:1, Does that make Moses is another God? if God says it, I would say that it is the truth. God says somewhere else in the Bible there's only one God! and besides me there is no one else. does that make God's words to Moses incorrect? I think not! God's words to Moses does not change the fact throughout the whole Bible there is only one Almighty God, Only One Most High, using Jesus words in a prayer to his father at John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. KJV

Why would Jesus pray these words for all of us to read and purposely leave out words of him being God Almighty, or saying he is the Most High or using his words at John 17:3 that they may know thee the only true God. [ or calling himself the only true God, which he never does. ].

The angel that spoke to Moses said to Moses I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, if an angel can say something like that, can't Jesus say all the things he said? and still be what the Bible teaches, John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

My purpose for saying these words is just to express there is another way to look at things, not all thinking is set in stone, before I believed just like you.

Stephanus(i) 1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον [ the God ] και θεος ην ο λογος ---- [ the God ] in English is inserted by me.

• 1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.
• 1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)
• 1829: "and the Word was a god" – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829)
• 1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)
• 1864: In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [the] God, and a god was the Word. Benjamin Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott
• Moffatt(i) 1 THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.
• NSB(i) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was like God (God-like).
• Goodspeed(i) 1 In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.
• Stephanus(i) 1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος --- this is the Greek words [ the God ] [ τον θεον ]. to see Greek word for word in English Click Link John 1:1 εν In "the" αρχη Beginning ην Was ο The λογος Word, και And ο The λογος Word ην Was προς With τον θεον God, και And θεος God ην Was ο The λογος Word.

Many translations write the word was a god, the word was divine, the word was like God or God-like, the Logos was divine.
See how John 1:1 is translated into English in almost 100 different Bibles. See these Links below:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

John 1:1 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

John 1:1 - The Beginning

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

biblehub.com

And here's a Unitarian Bible that reflects more closely -A Greek to English translation.

The Bible book of JOHN

Chapter 1​

1 In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with The God (gr. Ton Theon) and the Word was a powerful one (gr. theos or god-like).

 

[Ebionite]

God spoke to Moses and told him I have made you a God to pharaoh Exodus 7:1

Also Moses and Elohim are both named as the speaker in Exodus 19:25-20:1

 

[Ebionite]

I conceive of God as the Bible describes Him: the Majesty, the Supreme, the Most High and the God of gods. This God cannot in any way be composed of "three entities", as you say. That tells me that we are not talking about the same God.

'God' is ambiguous.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26, KJV

 

[YoursTrue]

'God' is ambiguous.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26, KJV

Please explain how you think that is ambiguous. God is obviously speaking to someone when He (God) said, "Let us make man in our image..." and more.

 

[YoursTrue]

'God' is ambiguous.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26, KJV

God is obviously speaking to someone when He--God--said, "Let us make man in our image..." It is clear that the one God was speaking to was like God because He said, in "our image"). So when God said to the other let us make man in our image, He was speaking to someone who was similar.

 

[walt]

1 And Moses was a shepherd with the flock of Jethro, his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the west of the desert, and he came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. 2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. 3 And Moses said, "Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?" 4 And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, "Moses, Moses." And he said, "Here I am." 5 And he said, "You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground." 6 And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at God. --Exodus 3:1-6 LEB - Lexham English Bible.

30 "And when forty years had been completed, an angel appeared to him in the desert of Mount Sinai in the flame of a burning bush. 31 And when Moses saw it, he was astonished at the sight, and when he approached to look at it, the voice of the Lord came: 32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob!' So Moses began trembling and did not dare to look at it. 33 And the Lord said to him, 'Untie the sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. 34 ⌊I have certainly seen⌋ the mistreatment of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their groaning, and I have come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send you to Egypt.' --Acts 7:30-34 LEB - Lexham English Bible.

“This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people. 38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us. --Acts 7:37-38 NIV

you who received the law as transmitted by angels, but did not keep it.” --Acts 7:53 EHV

Genesis 22:15-17 The Passion Translation (TPT)
YAHWEH’s angel spoke a second time from heaven: “ ‘I solemnly promise you, by the glory of my own name,’ decrees YAHWEH, ‘because you have obeyed my voice and did not withhold from me your son—your beloved son — I will greatly bless you! I will make sure your seed becomes as numerous as the stars of heaven and as the sand of the seashore. Your offspring will take possession of the city gates of their enemies.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Since Jesus Christ, the Savior, said "The Father and I are One", that settles it for me. If some people can't understand straight-forward language...

In prayer to his Father, Jesus said,
“I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.” —John 17:22

Meaning is important. Don’t you think?

Because at John 6:53, Jesus also said his disciples needed to ‘drink his blood and eat his flesh.’
Surely you don’t think He meant literally? Do you?

When Jesus called his Father, “the only true God”, and didn’t include himself (John 17:3)… what does “only” mean to you?

 

[Ebionite]

Please explain how you think that is ambiguous. God is obviously speaking to someone when He (God) said, "Let us make man in our image..." and more.

There is no "he" in the Hebrew of Genesis 1:26, it is an artifact of translation. Elohim must have both male and female forms in that context for the text to make sense.

 

[Betho_br]

1 John 4:15 New International Version
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

Some branches of the Christian tradition, especially in Eastern Orthodox theology, teach that human beings can become partakers of the divine nature through deification (or "theosis"). According to this view, believers who are in intimate communion with God, through grace and spiritual union, can experience a transformation that makes them participate in divinity in a special way. This concept is based on 2 Peter 1:4, which says: "By these things His exceeding great and precious promises have been given to us, that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature."

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hey Walt!

“in the beginning was the word and the Word was with the God in greek [ ho theos ], and the Word was God.”

Actually, I’m sure you know, there are no capital letters. So it’s “word” and “god”.

And the second “god” has no definite article (“the”), and comes before the predicate.

Third, there is no “the” before “beginning.”

Fourth, we need to keep in mind, Koine Greek in which the Gospel of John was written, had no indefinite articles (“a”, “an”); we have to add them in English.

And fifth, there’s no punctuation.

So literally, it says, “in beginning was the word and the word was with the god and god was the word”

With these facts in mind, and aware of Greek grammar, highly respected scholar and Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, S.J., wrote regarding John 1:1 in his 'Dictionary of the Bible'...."Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold type is mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (1965, NY), p. 317
Now this guy, being a Catholic priest, was a trinitarian. But he recognized the error of making John 1:1 say “the Word was God; rather, he said it should be translated “the Word was a divine being.”

You’ve gotta respect him for his honesty, especially in the face of his superiors & popular norms!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The interpretation of the phrase "we are one" as a union of purposes is a forced understanding of Jesus's words.

Nope. He meant solely as a unity of purpose. Jesus clarified this….

He explicitly said, "I am in God, and I and the Father are one; we are particular relatives!"

Read John 17:20-23…. “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one.”

The Jews understood this as a claim to divinity (elohim)

Again, inaccurate.

If that were true, that the Jews knew that Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh, then they would have accused him of that at His Sanhedrin trial. According to all 4 gospel accounts, they never did so! In fact the chief priest and scribes couldn’t even get their false witnesses to agree on any sort of blasphemy!

So it’s best not to add stuff that isn’t there.

Of course, Jesus was divine - he was “from God” (which is what “divine” means) - but so are angels, this Earth, our life, etc.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It cracks me up! Many Catholic and Protestant published works, and many encyclopedias, will say unequivocally that ‘the Trinity is a mystery’. (A mystery is just that: something anomalous that can’t be explained.)
And there are people on here, trying to explain it!

Knowing Who God is, should be basic. As Jesus said to the woman at the well @ John 4:23,24…”We worship what we know.” He also said, “salvation originates with the Jews.”

As one of Jesus’ followers, I try to imitate him; and I worship Who Jesus worshipped. — Exodus 20:2-6; John 20:17.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Also Moses and Elohim are both named as the speaker in Exodus 19:25-20:1

Oh my goodness! Now Moses is God!
Lol.

 

[Ebionite]

Oh my goodness! Now Moses is God!
Lol.

And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, YHWH will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream.
My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house.
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of YHWH shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Numbers 12:6-8

 

[YoursTrue]

There is only one true God. He designates who he wants to speak in his name.

 

[YoursTrue]

And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, YHWH will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream.
My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house.
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of YHWH shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Numbers 12:6-8

What I find interesting is what Jesus said about all the little situations some religious teachers promote but missing the point.

 

[jimb]

Hello jimb could we please talk about the identity of Jesus? Another thing do you also believe in the Trinity?

Myself whenever I get, for whatever reason a better understanding of something, I change my thinking, beliefs and actions accordingly.

I only seek to extend kindness to you and Christian love, while we both examine the scriptural evidence especially the words of Jesus.

a) I am talking about Jesus' identity.
b) Yes, I do believe in the Trinity.
c) "...whenever I get, for whatever reason a better understanding of something, I change my thinking, beliefs and actions accordingly", so go ahead and change your thinking about who Jesus was/is.
d) I also only seek to extend kindness to you and Christian love, while we both examine the scriptural evidence especially the words of Jesus.

 

[jimb]

Hello my friend Kenny good to hear from you, That is a great scripture to start with.. if you read John 1:1 in the Greek language it reads, in the beginning was the word and the Word was with the God in greek [ ho theos ], and the Word was God. Bibles that translate into English drop the [ the ] of the God, this is not correct, for the Greek language is what the Apostle John wrote In and reflects the most correct understanding.

This is why so many different English translations have words so differently at John 1:1

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

I will post in the next hour, the differences in John 1:1 in so many different English translations they agree and they totally do not agree with each other.

this scripture John 1:1 reflects that.. and the word was God. [ not the God ] Jesus is not called [ the God ] at John 1:1, he is referred to as God
[ theos ] in Greek. I looked through the Bible and I found Moses called God [ theos ], the word [ theos ] is used for Paul and Barnabas.

God spoke to Moses and told him I have made you a God to pharaoh Exodus 7:1, Does that make Moses is another God? if God says it, I would say that it is the truth. God says somewhere else in the Bible there's only one God! and besides me there is no one else. does that make God's words to Moses incorrect? I think not! God's words to Moses does not change the fact throughout the whole Bible there is only one Almighty God, Only One Most High, using Jesus words in a prayer to his father at John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. KJV

Why would Jesus pray these words for all of us to read and purposely leave out words of him being God Almighty, or saying he is the Most High or using his words at John 17:3 that they may know thee the only true God. [ or calling himself the only true God, which he never does. ].

The angel that spoke to Moses said to Moses I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, if an angel can say something like that, can't Jesus say all the things he said? and still be what the Bible teaches, John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

My purpose for saying these words is just to express there is another way to look at things, not all thinking is set in stone, before I believed just like you.

What are your translation qualifications? Without exception, Bible translations all have ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God." John 1:1) in one form or another.