Jesus is not God

[Oeste]

As the begotten Son of God Jesus cannot be anything but the Son of God.

The Son of God is God precisely because he is the Son of God.
The Son of Man is Man precisely because he is the Son of Man
The Son of Dog is Dog precisely because he is the Son of Dog.
The Son of Frog is Frog precisely because he is the Son of Frog.

If you have any biblical illustrations where frogs, dogs and men can beget anything but frogs, dogs and men, feel free to share this with readers.

But the offspring of the frog or the snake or the turtle or the dog and not the SAME as the one who begot them....
THAT is what you are missing.

Not at all!

I am not saying that the Son of Frog is the Father of the Frog, or that the Father of the Frog is the Son of the Frog. I am simply stating they are all frogs and cannot be anything but Frog.

The offspring will share some features of the parents since it inherits them, so Jesus shares the 'divine nature' of God, but that does not mean that Jesus IS GOD.

If "that does not mean Jesus is GOD", then for the exact same reason "that does not mean Jesus is MAN".


Let's run with your argument for a moment. If having a heavenly Father does not mean Jesus is God, then having an earthly mother does not mean Jesus is Man.

So what is Jesus to you, if not God or Man? A hybrid?

And as the begotten son of man, you cannot be anything but man. You cannot be an fly or an elephant.

That is correct, and since Jesus was the Son of Man, that means that Jesus was a man, not God.

BE CONSISTENT WITH YOUR LOGIC @Trailblazer. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.



Your argument HERE:
....since Jesus was the Son of Man, that means that Jesus was a man, not God

Means this argument HERE:
....since Jesus was the Son of God, that means Jesus was God, not man.

The logic and deduction are the same. Your inability to arrive at a consistent conclusion is based on doctrine, and certainly not on any argument or rationale you've presented here.

If your arguments were consistent, then you would tell us Jesus is not Man but the Son of Man, the same way you tell us Jesus is not God, but the Son of God.

Instead, when you hear "Son of Man" you tell us Jesus is man, but when you here "Son of God" you cannot tell us Jesus is God, despite the fact he is the begotten son of the Father!

That is not logic speaking to our readers @Trailblazer, that is biased doctrine.

Here is a good example:

No, it's completely accurate. Jesus is not only the Son of man, which makes him man, but he is the Son of God, which makes him God.

That is so illogical that I have to go for a second cup of coffee so I can recover.

I wholeheartedly agree that your arguments have been logically inconsistent for the reasons I gave above. As for me, I am on a deck with some good friends, and as I type this, one if preparing my 2nd coffee martini.

Jesus prays to God because he is the Son of Man, but he can also turn stones to bread as the Son of God. The temptation does not make sense unless he's both.

This is all rather straight forward and simple if you prefer a consistent logic over dogma.

You just hit the nail right on the head! Jesus has a dual nature, one part human and one part God. That is in the scriptures of my religion.
''''
Jesus is a divine being who is also human (part God, part human).

Thank you for sharing this @Trailblazer, but it gives the impression you have not been truthful in our discussion.

Earlier you stated Jesus was man, and now we find you actually believe he's only half human. And while you claim Jesus is not God, what you actually believe is Jesus is simply half-God.

Unfortunately, a half human Jesus means that Jesus could not possibly have died for our sins, which I suppose suits Bahá'í doctrine very well.

My second martini is here. Have a good evening everyone. The mosquitoes are biting and I am headed inside.

 

[walt]

Acts 14: 15 a " We also are men with the same nature as you,” But we are doing well.

I read your scripture, very nice words thanks for the optimistic scripture.

 

[walt]

For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Deuteronomy 10:17, KJV

How do you know that I don't understand it and do not want to understand it? We never even discussed it.

I wanted to give you a real big..

 

[Trailblazer]

I wanted to give you a real big..

Hug back...

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's run with your argument for a moment. If having a heavenly Father does not mean Jesus is God, then having an earthly mother does not mean Jesus is Man.

So what is Jesus to you, if not God or Man? A hybrid?

Yes, in a sense Jesus was a hybrid, since He had a twofold nature, one nature human, the other nature divine.
Why is that so difficult to understand?

BE CONSISTENT WITH YOUR LOGIC @Trailblazer. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Your argument HERE:
....since Jesus was the Son of Man, that means that Jesus was a man, not God

Means this argument HERE:
....since Jesus was the Son of God, that means Jesus was God, not man.

The logic and deduction are the same. Your inability to arrive at a consistent conclusion is based on doctrine, and certainly not on any argument or rationale you've presented here.

I am going to retract what I said above.

...since Jesus was the Son of Man, that means that Jesus was a man, not God.

Jesus was 'called' the Son of man. That was just a title given to Jesus.
Presumably the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented.

That did not mean that Jesus was a man.

Thank you for sharing this @Trailblazer, but it gives the impression you have not been truthful in our discussion.

Earlier you stated Jesus was man, and now we find you actually believe he's only half human. And while you claim Jesus is not God, what you actually believe is Jesus is simply half-God.

No, I did not mean that Jesus is half-God. I believe that he was a human with a divine nature and a Manifestation of God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
God was manifest in the flesh, but God did not become flesh, so Jesus was not God incarnate.

Unfortunately, a half human Jesus means that Jesus could not possibly have died for our sins, which I suppose suits Bahá'í doctrine very well.

Jesus was not half human but Jesus was human. He was set apart from ordinary humans since He had a divine nature.
Jesus did die for our sins, that is what Baha'is believe.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

Read more:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 118-121

 

[Kenny]

Kenny-
The word means "divine". God or someone like him.
What about "WITH God" (repeated TWICE).
You you believe the Trinity Three Gods (as it really is)?

No… I don’t see “twice"

I was made in His image and in His likeness… so all i have to do is look at my makeup:

1 Thessalonians 5:23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am a spirit that has a soul that lives in a body. Each part has a different materiality and a different purpose but I am still one person. The Godhead is a three-part being, The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit - each one has a different purpose but it is still one God. Elohim (plural) is one Lord (God)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Logically, the Son of God must be God. He couldn't be anything else.

Adam was God’s son. He wasn’t God.

Neither are angels… although they are called God’s sons.

The God is unique. None of His progeny, equate to being Him.




You take care.

 

[blü 2]

Do you actually think that Deuteronomy 10:17 means that God is not a person?

That depends on whether gods count as people. The God of Deuteronomy is one of the various gods of the earlier part of the bible, the one worshiped henotheistically by the Hebrews, just as eg Chemosh was worshiped by the Ammonites in Judges 11; and why the commandment is to have no other gods before Yahweh, NOT to have no other gods. God doesn't become the sole god until after the Babylonian captivity, around the time Isaiah was written.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Son of God is God precisely because he is the Son of God.
The Son of Man is Man precisely because he is the Son of Man
The Son of Dog is Dog precisely because he is the Son of Dog.
The Son of Frog is Frog precisely because he is the Son of Frog.

If you have any biblical illustrations where frogs, dogs and men can beget anything but frogs, dogs and men, feel free to share this with readers.



Not at all!

I am not saying that the Son of Frog is the Father of the Frog, or that the Father of the Frog is the Son of the Frog. I am simply stating they are all frogs and cannot be anything but Frog.



If "that does not mean Jesus is GOD", then for the exact same reason "that does not mean Jesus is MAN".


Let's run with your argument for a moment. If having a heavenly Father does not mean Jesus is God, then having an earthly mother does not mean Jesus is Man.

So what is Jesus to you, if not God or Man? A hybrid?





BE CONSISTENT WITH YOUR LOGIC @Trailblazer. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.



Your argument HERE:
....since Jesus was the Son of Man, that means that Jesus was a man, not God

Means this argument HERE:
....since Jesus was the Son of God, that means Jesus was God, not man.

The logic and deduction are the same. Your inability to arrive at a consistent conclusion is based on doctrine, and certainly not on any argument or rationale you've presented here.

If your arguments were consistent, then you would tell us Jesus is not Man but the Son of Man, the same way you tell us Jesus is not God, but the Son of God.

Instead, when you hear "Son of Man" you tell us Jesus is man, but when you here "Son of God" you cannot tell us Jesus is God, despite the fact he is the begotten son of the Father!

That is not logic speaking to our readers @Trailblazer, that is biased doctrine.

Here is a good example:





I wholeheartedly agree that your arguments have been logically inconsistent for the reasons I gave above. As for me, I am on a deck with some good friends, and as I type this, one if preparing my 2nd coffee martini.

Jesus prays to God because he is the Son of Man, but he can also turn stones to bread as the Son of God. The temptation does not make sense unless he's both.

This is all rather straight forward and simple if you prefer a consistent logic over dogma.



Thank you for sharing this @Trailblazer, but it gives the impression you have not been truthful in our discussion.

Earlier you stated Jesus was man, and now we find you actually believe he's only half human. And while you claim Jesus is not God, what you actually believe is Jesus is simply half-God.

Unfortunately, a half human Jesus means that Jesus could not possibly have died for our sins, which I suppose suits Bahá'í doctrine very well.

My second martini is here. Have a good evening everyone. The mosquitoes are biting and I am headed inside.

I see your reasoning here. Right now the only thing I would like to say is that it seems that because Jesus said he was the Son of God, some of his listeners thought he was saying he was God which was blasphemy as far as they were concerned . Then Jesus quoted for them from the Psalm which said they were gods.

 

[Questioning]

No… I don’t see “twice"

John 1:1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2- The same was in the beginning with God.

 

[YoursTrue]

No… I don’t see “twice"

I was made in His image and in His likeness… so all i have to do is look at my makeup:

1 Thessalonians 5:23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am a spirit that has a soul that lives in a body. Each part has a different materiality and a different purpose but I am still one person. The Godhead is a three-part being, The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit - each one has a different purpose but it is still one God. Elohim (plural) is one Lord (God)

Hello, Kenny. Looking up John 1 again, here's what I see -- "1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a it."
So -- through him (Jesus, the Word) all things were made -- without him nothing was made that has been made...
That's from the NIV translation, not always the greatest translation, but that's what it says anyway. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God. Verse 2 says he (the Word) was with God in the beginning. It also says yes, that the Word was God but then we'd have to understand how the Word was God and what the word God means.

 

[cataway]

could it be that God is so perfect that he can not deal with any thing thats not also perfect?? hence the reason for the need of Jesus to do the work done in all of creation ?

 

[jimb]

could it be that God is so perfect that he can not deal with any thing thats not also perfect?? hence the reason for the need of Jesus to do the work done in all of creation ?

No, God can and does (and always has) dealt with people and things that are not perfect. He created the world, including all living things, and interacted with imperfect people from the garden of Eden onward.

 

[cataway]

No, God can and does (and always has) dealt with people and things that are not perfect. He created the world, including all living things, and interacted with imperfect people from the garden of Eden onward.

did he ?? as for Adam he at one time was considered perfect but then lost the privilege of interacting with God . Jimb ,who are you that you would know?

 

[walt]

Is Jesus words reliable and trustworthy? I think these three scriptures say yes!

for Moses said, The Lord our God will raise up a prophet for you from among your brotherhood, as he raised me: you must listen to whatever he may tell you.--Acts 3:22 Moffatt 1926

He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” --Matthew 17:5 English Standard Version.

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. --John 14:23–24 The New King James Version (NKJV)

* Then when an Apostle's speaks in agreement with Jesus we find double Harmony!

 

[walt]

His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, “‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand." --Luke 8:9-10

• - sometimes he is teaching, like in the sermon on the Mount.
• - sometimes he is revealing secrets to his disciples in private.
• - sometimes he is speaking words in prayer to his father.
• - sometimes he is speaking to his friends like John the Baptist, Martha and Mary Magdalene.
• - sometimes he is speaking in public,to different ones that oppose Jesus teaching strongly. and it is prophesied he will speak to them in parables, so that, “‘though seeing, they may not see Luke 8:9-10

He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. --Matthew 13:11 New Living Translation.

 

[walt]

Did Jesus reveal any secrets about his identity to his disciples in private?

13 When he had come into the region of Caes·a·reʹa Phi·lipʹpi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is? 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·liʹjah, l and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did. Matthew 16:13-17

Please, read these words by Jesus:
He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. --Matthew 13:11 New Living Translation.

And answering He said to them, "Because it has been granted to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it has not been granted. --Matthew 13:11 Berean Literal Bible

Do you agree that Jesus reveals to his disciples in secret a truth, that others may not be able to understand?

• Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
• Jesus agrees.
• Jesus says my father in the heavens is the one that has revealed this to you Simon son of Jonah.

A conversation between Jesus and his disciples in private, about Jesus identity, and towards the end of the conversation Peter answers and Jesus confirms what he wants his disciples to understand.

 

[walt]

Matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them, 35 in order to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations; I will proclaim things hidden since the founding.”

Mark 4:34 Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them, but he would explain all things privately to his disciples.

And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but to those who are outside, everything is done in parables,
--Mark 4:11 Berean Literal Bible

• Is Jesus words the truth that sets you free?
• Especially the truth that Jesus explains to his disciples in private?

 

[Kenny]

OK… but that is verse 2.

It goes on to say:

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

(If Jesus was a created being that verse would be false. I, as verse 1 says, “The Word WAS God” - then there is harmony.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

God is light - Jesus is light - Jesus is God
God is life - Jesus is life - Jesus is God

John 8:
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him:

YUP - He is God.

 

[cataway]

OK… but that is verse 2.

It goes on to say:

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

(If Jesus was a created being that verse would be false. I, as verse 1 says, “The Word WAS God” - then there is harmony.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

God is light - Jesus is light - Jesus is God
God is life - Jesus is life - Jesus is God

John 8:
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him:

YUP - He is God.

gasp