Jesus is not God

[Kenny]

Ex 7:1- And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh...

Yes, as it is written, “ye are gods”… but not capital G - God (there are no capital letters in scriptures)

 

[Questioning]

Some have argued that John 1:1c should be translated as “and the Word was a god” because the Greek text lacks a definite article before theos (“God”). They reason, therefore, that the Word was divine but not God. This is unacceptable for the following reasons:

1. The Greek word for “divine” is theios not theos.

2. There are many New Testament passages where a definite article does not precede a subject and yet the subject is specific. For example, in John 1:49 (“you are the King of Israel”), there is not a definite article before King in the original text.

3. In John 1:1b, theos clearly refers to the one true God. Therefore, 1:1c must also refer to the one true God rather than a lesser god.

4. In John 1:1c, the Word is the subject of the sentence, and God is part of the predicate complementing the subject. The word was is a linking verb, or an equative. Thus, the Word is equal to God.
The question arises that, if the Word is God, how can He be with God? Does this mean that there are two gods? The Greek text gives the answer. In John 1:1b, the preposition for “with” is pros, which means “to” or “towards.” The same preposition is used elsewhere in the New Testament (Mark 6:3; 14:49; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philemon 1:13; 1 John 1:2). In these passages, pros shows the relation of two persons who are with each other, usually in a close and intimate way. Hence, the Word is inseparable from God yet distinguishable from God (John 17:5). In other words, God the Son has the same essence as God the Father, but they are not the same person. As the Athanasian Creed says, “We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.” -

 

[Questioning]

Yes, as it is written, “ye are gods”… but not capital G - God (there are no capital letters in scriptures)

the word was god
i have made you god

 

[Kenny]

the word was god
i have made you god

No… the word WAS God… not “made you god” (speaking of Jesus) - Moses was not made a god but unto pharaoh’s eyes was make like unto a god.. like the gods Pharaoh served and was thought of as a god

 

[Questioning]

Moses was God, too.

 

[Questioning]

There are biblical accounts where an angel is spoken of as God. He REPRESENTED Him.

 

[cataway]

There are biblical accounts where an angel is spoken of as God. He REPRESENTED Him.

you are describing a agent ?

 

[Questioning]

you are describing a agent ?

Yes!
Heb 3:2- He was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in God’s house.

 

[blü 2]

it’s a puzzle that you put the pieces together

Thanks for those.

Psalm 22

Hmm. The author of Mark and the author of Matthew used that as his model for their respective crucifixion scenes, but the text itself specifies a sword, not crucifixion, and the text is in the first person, who applies these threats to himself, not to some future being.

And certainly no future messiah is mentioned (even if we take the author to be David, son of God by adoption in Psalm 2:7).

Deut 21:23

That's about execution antisocial people by hanging. It may be that the author of Mark had it in mind when he had Jesus dead and buried by sundown of Day 1, but like the others, there's no basis to think of it as a prophesy, simply as a template.

Ps 34:20

There the author pictures himself pursued by enemies, not by the state, and keeping your bones unbroken is said to be the reward of the Lord to the faithful generally. Again, the author of Mark may have had that in mind when he wove his story ─ like all the NT authors, he never met an historical Jesus and was using a literary structure, not an official or new structure, for his story.

So though I can put the pieces together, and again my thanks, they confirm to me my understanding of the composing techniques of the author of Mark. They incidentally show how to construct a prophecy, though my favorite example is Matthew 21:2-5 where the author absurdly sits Jesus across a foal AND a donkey to ride into Jerusalem “to fulfill prophecy” (Zechariah 9.9).

Indeed, we can date the gospel of Mark to later than 70 CE by Mark 13:2, where Jesus "predicts" the destruction of Jerusalem. The Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE, you'll recall. (Further, we can date Mark to at least 75 CE by other clues.)

 

[Kenny]

Thanks for those.



Hmm. The author of Mark and the author of Matthew used that as his model for their respective crucifixion scenes, but the text itself specifies a sword, not crucifixion, and the text is in the first person, who applies these threats to himself, not to some future being.

And certainly no future messiah is mentioned (even if we take the author to be David, son of God by adoption in Psalm 2:7).

That's about execution antisocial people by hanging. It may be that the author of Mark had it in mind when he had Jesus dead and buried by sundown of Day 1, but like the others, there's no basis to think of it as a prophesy, simply as a template.

There the author pictures himself pursued by enemies, not by the state, and keeping your bones unbroken is said to be the reward of the Lord to the faithful generally. Again, the author of Mark may have had that in mind when he wove his story ─ like all the NT authors, he never met an historical Jesus and was using a literary structure, not an official or new structure, for his story.

So though I can put the pieces together, and again my thanks, they confirm to me my understanding of the composing techniques of the author of Mark. They incidentally show how to construct a prophecy, though my favorite example is Matthew 21:2-5 where the author absurdly sits Jesus across a foal AND a donkey to ride into Jerusalem “to fulfill prophecy” (Zechariah 9.9).

Indeed, we can date the gospel of Mark to later than 70 CE by Mark 13:2, where Jesus "predicts" the destruction of Jerusalem. The Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE, you'll recall. (Further, we can date Mark to at least 75 CE by other clues.)

And yet it still applies. There are always the shadow (that which is applicable that is there for that day, but it is the shadow of the real event.

Colossians 2:17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.
Hebrews 8:5 They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven.
Hebrews 10:1 The old system under the law of Moses was only a shadow, a dim preview of the good things to come, not the good things themselves.


Psalm 22

What Old Testament Prophecies Predicted Jesus and the Cross?

Jesus’ atoning sacrifice, the situation surrounding the crucifixion, the means of His death, and His last words all fulfill major Old Testament prophecies that are scattered throughout the Law, Psalms, and Prophets. Jesus is truly the promised Messiah of the Old Testament.

www.christianity.com

Deut 21:23
(shadow) 23. The corpse of the executed criminal had to be buried the selfsame day at all costs. The Hebrew syntax is strongly emphatic. The reason was that the corpse of an executed man was an object accursed of God and would defile the land (cf. Num. 35:33f.; Lev. 18:24–27). The presence of the corpse hanging up to the public gaze, with crime, as it were, clinging to it and God’s curse resting on it, might result in untold calamities. Hence as soon as the necessary amount of publicity had been achieved and other likely offenders had been warned, the corpse was buried, and that before sunset.

(that which cast the shadow) In a later day Paul was to draw from this brief section an analogy (Gal. 3:13). Just as the corpse of a condemned criminal carried the curse of God, so Christ hanging on the cross as a condemned and executed criminal was publicly exhibited as one who bore the judgment of God. He bore the same shame as every executed criminal and was publicly exhibited as one who was accursed of God. To free us from the curse of the law Jesus himself had to become accursed.

Thompson, J. A. (1974). Deuteronomy: An Introduction and Commentary (Vol. 5, p. 255). InterVarsity Press.

Ps. 34:20

(shadow) 19–22. These verses reiterate the main themes of the psalm, and re-emphasize the great divide between those whom God accepts and those he rejects. The sweeping affirmation of 19b urges the mind forward to look beyond death, if such a promise is to be honoured. Verse 20 needs to be taken with 18, which admits that a godly man’s suffering may be extreme; yet God never takes it lightly (18a), and never loses control (20); cf. the paradox of Luke 21:16, 18.

(that which casts the shadow) The ‘scripture’ that was fulfilled in John 19:36 may have included this verse with Exodus 12:46. ‘The promise to the righteous man found an unexpectedly literal realization in the passion of the perfectly Righteous One’ (Kirkpatrick).


Kidner, D. (1973). Psalms 1–72: an introduction and commentary (Vol. 15, p. 159). InterVarsity Press.

 

[Questioning]

I guess it's up to God to help you see- against the glare of Churchianity!

 

[walt]

Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | John | written appox 330 - 350

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hi Kenny good to hear from you, to me it doesn't really matter the wording of John 1:1, please, I will explain, no matter how it is worded.. they all say twice the word was with God.

I clicked your link to Codex Sinaiticus and I looked at the website.. in the Greek it still says : the word was with [ the God ] in Greek, very similar, like the Vatican manuscript 1209

Kenny, I agree with you Jesus - the Word is referred to as God at John 1:1 [ so is Moses ], either way it does not prove the Trinity! in the Codex Sinaiticus it says in Greek [ with the god ] also: John 1:1-3 in Greek, Hebrew and Coptic. says: [ with the god ].

Jesus is prophesied to be called Mighty God at Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1 does not call the word [ the god ]. In Greek, Hebrew or Coptic.

Nomina sacra is Greek words abbreviated in the early N.T. Manuscripts [ God ] [ Θεόν abbreviated to Θν ] Examples of words and abbreviations..

 

[Questioning]

Kenny-
The word means "divine". God or someone like him.
What about "WITH God" (repeated TWICE).
You you believe the Trinity Three Gods (as it really is)?

 

[wellwisher]

Many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.

The Trinity is an esoteric symbol. The easiest way to understand the Trinity is with a simple analogy. There is a man name Joe, who is a son to his parents, a husband to his wife, and a father to his children. He is one person with one SS number, but has three different persona or hats he wears based on which of these three levels of his life, he is interacting. He is respectful and even submissive, like a child, to his parents in ways he is not with his wife and children. He is intimate with his wife in ways he is not with his parents or children. And he is firm but fair, with his children in ways he not with his parents and wife.

God is analogous to Joe. He is one person, while the trinity are his three expressions for his family. In the Old Testament, Joe is the Father. In the New Testament, Joe is the Son, while the Future Testament; promise of the Holy Spirit, Joe is the Husband; intimate creative aspect via the spirit of truth.

Each is one of these three, are aspects of the one God. Technically, Jesus is God but not all of God. God is like a tri-core processor, with Jesus one of the three cores. Each core can act separate, or they can all act together; esoteric symbol of God.

This symbolism show how there are three valid way to worship, the one God, via any one of the three cores. The Jews and even the Arabs, still worship the God through the Father core, the Christian through the Son core and the more spiritual, intuitive, and maybe even evangelical, through the Hoy Spirit or the HS core. They are all different expressions of God, since like Joe, each audience is different and has unique needs. I tend to use more of the HS core but also accept the other two cores which allow some tri-core leverage.

If we extrapolate this family analogy, say Joe's children grow up and they have children. Now Joe is now a grandfather to his grandchildren. This is a fourth core. Even though the grandchildren are children, he treats them differently from his own children, and likes to spoil them, like his parents did to his children. The fourth core is the inner self in humans; children of the promise.

This symbolism of the family is archetypical, in the sense of being repeated over eons in all cultures and even before cultures. This has impacted the human brain and has become a platform of separation onto which the personality firmware are built.

One interesting scenario, is holidays where all three or four generations come together to celebrate. Each generation gets to see Joe becoming just Joe, with his hair down, not trying to be as differentiated as any one core; the one God. The family of man running on all cylinders.

 

[walt]

The Trinity is an esoteric symbol. The easiest way to understand the Trinity is with a simple analogy. There is a man name Joe, who is a son to his parents, a husband to his wife, and a father to his children. He is one person with one SS number, but has three different persona or hats he wears based on which of these three levels of his life, he is interacting. He is respectful and even submissive, like a child, to his parents in ways he is not with his wife and children. He is intimate with his wife in ways he is not with his parents or children. And he is firm but fair, with his children in ways he not with his parents and wife.

God is analogous to Joe. He is one person, while the trinity are his three expressions for his family. In the Old Testament, Joe is the Father. In the New Testament, Joe is the Son, while the Future Testament; promise of the Holy Spirit, Joe is the Husband; intimate creative aspect via the spirit of truth.

Each is one of these three, are aspects of the one God. Technically, Jesus is God but not all of God. God is like a tri-core processor, with Jesus one of the three cores. Each core can act separate, or they can all act together; esoteric symbol of God.

This symbolism show how there are three valid way to worship, the one God, via any one of the three cores. The Jews and even the Arabs, still worship the God through the Father core, the Christian through the Son core and the more spiritual, intuitive, and maybe even evangelical, through the Hoy Spirit or the HS core. They are all different expressions of God, since like Joe, each audience is different and has unique needs. I tend to use more of the HS core but also accept the other two cores which allow some tri-core leverage.

If we extrapolate this family analogy, say Joe's children grow up and they have children. Now Joe is now a grandfather to his grandchildren. This is a fourth core. Even though the grandchildren are children, he treats them differently from his own children, and likes to spoil them, like his parents did to his children. The fourth core is the inner self in humans; children of the promise.

This symbolism of the family is archetypical, in the sense of being repeated over eons in all cultures and even before cultures. This has impacted the human brain and has become a platform of separation onto which the personality firmware are built.

One interesting scenario, is holidays where all three or four generations come together to celebrate. Each generation gets to see Joe becoming just Joe, with his hair down, not trying to be as differentiated as any one core; the one God. The family of man running on all cylinders.

That's a whole lot of words, but I respect 100% your viewpoint, but here's my huge problem in my mind, I start my thinking reading Jesus words!
I am so strict about it I use Jesus words, word for word to direct and instruct me, how to think, I don't allow, I push out my own ideas, I respect that you have a way to explain what you believe, and that's great, but I just don't do it that way.

I let Jesus do all the talking.. I try my very best not to listen to myself, or anyone else!

• I am God's son. --John 10:36, John 3:16, Matthew 16:16-17 and Jesus is referred to as the Son of God, in the Bible over 50 times.
• My Father who is in heaven. -The Bible uses the word Father in reference to Jesus Father over 50 times.
• My Father and your Father, My God and your God. --John 20:17
• Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. --John 17:3
• “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. --Luke 13:24 NIV
• “Therefore, whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock. Mtt 7:24
• Everybody has an opinion, that kind of directs their thinking, I let Jesus words kind of direct my thinking!! whatever anyone has to say, I still think Jesus directive advice is better, I don't watch out for things unless Jesus or an Apostle says watch out for this or that.

 

[walt]

with a simple analogy.

I listen and obey Jesus simple analogies. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your way.

 

[Questioning]

I enjoy the absurd illustrations to illustrate their Trinity!
It inspires my graphics!

 

[walt]

These three images show every time in Greek it is written in Greek [ the Word was with the God ]

But everytime when it is translated into english, what is written is: [ the Word was with God ] shouldn't we be writing the true words by the Apostle John that he wrote in Greek? by saying [ the word is with the God ], The Apostle John is making a point, where written in English there is no point at all.

These images are from Bible Hub

John 1:1 Interlinear: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

biblehub.com

John 1:1 Parallel Greek Texts

biblehub.com

 

[Trailblazer]

I see no other conclusion unless you believe scripture is not inspired of God.

Please show me anywhere in scripture where it says that Jesus is God.

Verses that you interpret to mean that don't count.
Where in scripture did Jesus ever claim to be God?

'I and my Father are one' is not Jesus saying he is God the Father.
That verse means that they share the same attributes and they share the same Holy Spirit and they are one in purpose.

 

[Trailblazer]

This changes nothing however. As the begotten Son of God Jesus cannot be anything but God.

As the begotten Son of God Jesus cannot be anything but the Son of God.

Likewise, as the begotten son of frog one cannot be anything but frog. You cannot be a snake or a turtle.

Or as the begotten son of dog, you cannot be anything but dog. You cannot be a cat or a kangaroo.

But the offspring of the frog or the snake or the turtle or the dog and not the SAME as the one who begot them....
THAT is what you are missing.

The offspring will share some features of the parents since it inherits them, so Jesus shares the 'divine nature' of God, but that does not mean that Jesus IS GOD.

And as the begotten son of man, you cannot be anything but man. You cannot be an fly or an elephant.

That is correct, and since Jesus was the Son of Man, that means that Jesus was a man, not God.

No, it's completely accurate. Jesus is not only the Son of man, which makes him man, but he is the Son of God, which makes him God.

Jesus being the Son of God does not make Jesus God. It makes Jesus the Son of God.

That is so illogical that I have to go for a second cup of coffee so I can recover.

Son of God appears just as the Son of Man appears in scripture clearly showing Christ's dual nature.

Absolutely!

You just hit the nail right on the head! Jesus has a dual nature, one part human and one part God. That is in the scriptures of my religion.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

So, Jesus is not FULLY GOD and FULLY HUMAN, as Trinitarians claim. That is logically impossible.

Jesus is a divine being who is also human (part God, part human).
That is completely logical, and has been demonstrated in ALL the scriptures.