Michael Junior
Member
Then you did not read your bible read john 1:1, revelation 1:7-9, revelation 21:7 and john 10:30 they all say jesus is god.
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Jesus is not God
- Thread starter andy
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Bible_Student
Member
Could you tell us why, if you consider Jesus to be God, he himself says that he has a God who is the God of his brothers in John 20:17?
PS: Keep in mind that there are many other texts in the Bible saying that Jesus has a God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is not Jesus speaking. It is John of Patmos.
Who actually wrote the Book of Revelation?
Modern theological scholars characterize the Book of Revelation's author as "John of Patmos". The bulk of traditional sources date the book to the reign of the Roman emperor Domitian (AD 81–96), which evidence tends to confirm.
Book of Revelation - Wikipedia
“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) IS NOT Jesus saying He IS GOD.
That verse means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also shares the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.
Jesus was a Manifestation of God but Jesus was also a Servant of God, and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Jesus was able to do the works of the Father because the Father was in Him. Jesus said He could do nothing by Himself.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be God.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Yes, but God is already unique, so an additional determiner would not be necessary.
Bible_Student
Member
@Oeste this question is also for you, if you can answer it, please. Thanks.
Could you tell us why, if you consider Jesus to be God, he himself says that he has a God who is the God of his brothers in John 20:17?
PS: Keep in mind that there are many other texts in the Bible saying that Jesus has a God.
Could you tell us why, if you consider Jesus to be God, he himself says that he has a God who is the God of his brothers in John 20:17?
PS: Keep in mind that there are many other texts in the Bible saying that Jesus has a God.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Hi @Michael Junior
Welcome to our discussion!
Just a heads up...
I'm not sure how this thread resurfaced as it's nearly 20 years old. I believe the profiles for both Andy and No*s have been deleted.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
IMO, "Proof-texting" of this sort tends to have an outsized value with unorthodox religions. We've had proof-texting matches on this forum before. The result is a wall of text that gets boring very quickly and very few people read.
I've found it more productive and fulfilling to limit myself to a verse at a time, perhaps with a verse or two in support, as anything over that tends to be ignored. In any event, it's a relatively simple exercise for Trinitarians to post proof texts.
Of course I realize others may disagree.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Absolutely! "Half the scripture is half the understanding". I can see your point in that.
Let's take this point and run. I'd like to address this in my next post with our new member, @Bible_Student.
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
One I will try to include information from each and every 40 scriptures.
Two I will try my best to find Harmony in all 40 scriptures.
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walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
boring yes! but I don't see any value in half of anything! the whole truth, a more complete understanding, not leaving anything out, why?
because the Bible wrote all those inspired words, if we only choose to use part of them, is that a very good choice?
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Does anyone Know the percentage of Bibles that are translated by a Unitarian Bible Translator? Unitarian means: one who believes that God exists only in one person.
I have heard only 20% of Christians Believe Jesus is literally God's Son? I don't know if that number is correct?
Does anyone know of the name's of any Unitarian Bibles?
I have heard only 20% of Christians Believe Jesus is literally God's Son? I don't know if that number is correct?
Does anyone know of the name's of any Unitarian Bibles?
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
The scriptures you are referencing are very fine scriptures, all scriptures are inspired by God 2 Timothy 3:16.
If anyone was a Bible translator, and translated the Bible from Greek to English, to do something like this is a huge endeavor, requiring much effort, I give any Bible translator many many words of thanks for all the effort they put into it.
There are three kinds of Bible translators, and all three of them come from a different theological backgrounds.
1. Some translators believe Jesus Is God or part of a Trinity, and Translate the words in English accordingly.
2. Some translators believe Jesus is literally the Son of God and God is Jesus Father John 17:3 and Translate the words in English accordingly.
3. Some translators are unbiased, neutral, for example Maybe Reader's Digest? translating the words in English accordingly.
There is more evidence in the New Testament and even revelation, that Jesus is literally God's son and Jesus is telling the truth when he said at John 17:3 this means everlasting life they're taking knowledge of you the only true God and the one whom you sent Jesus Christ.
- In any Bible you can find Jesus's called God's son over 50 times.
- In any translation you can find God is referred to as Jesus "Father" over 200 times, even in Revelation.
- By far most every Jewish religion from the time of Genesis to Today, still believe in One God One Person they are Unitarian believers.
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Oeste
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the Forum and to our discussion here @Bible_Student.
This is an excellent question and one I'd wish to discuss.
First I'd like to point out that Jesus is the Son of Man:
As the Son of Man, Jesus is completely and fully human. Not half-human, not part-human, but fully human.
During the early church there were many heresies concerning the nature of Jesus. For example, the Docetists claimed Jesus wasn't human at all.
Of course, as the Son of Man, Jesus was completely human, and not a "spirit creature" or "illusion".
So when someone asks "Why is Jesus praying to the Father if he is God?", I would simply tell them that God does not pray to anyone, but Jesus, as the Son of Man certainly does. The "Son of Man" is a title that points to Jesus' human nature, and not just an honorary title bestowed on him to make us think he was human when he wasn't.
IOW, when an Arian points out Jesus is man, we're all smiles. Any scripture you give which affirms this will only give us bigger smiles. In this respect we are with you 100%. 
@walt: There is no need to post 20 scriptures that show Jesus is man. No Trinitarian will disagree with you. But, as you deftly pointed out, that is only half the scripture.
Jesus is also the Son of God:
This is the other half, where I find our Arian friends, IMO, "fall down".
While they point to scripture after scripture which shows Jesus is Son of Man, they completely ignore the fact he is also the Son of God. Not just any "son of God" as the angels, but God's only begotten Son.
The "Son of God" is a title that points to Jesus' Godly nature, and not just an honorary title bestowed on him to make us think he was God when he was not. "Son of God" tells us he is God, just as "Son of Man" tells us he is man.
I will give a biblical example of how Jesus is "Son of God" (there are many more) which Arians appear to ignore. We can dispense with showing Jesus is human, since we all appear to agree Jesus is human (and not some form of gnostic demiurge):
During the temptation of Christ, Satan asked Jesus to prove that he was the "Son of God" by turning a few stones into bread:
And when the tempter came to Him, he said, If Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. (Mat 4:3)
Satan is asking Jesus, as the Son of Man, who can be tempted*, to use his power, as the Son of God, to turn stones into bread, as both Satan and Jesus realize that the Father cannot be tempted into doing it for him.
(*"Then was Jesus led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil")
The temptation scene does not make sense if Jesus is just a man. It makes no further sense if Jesus has to wait on the Father to do it for him, and it certainly makes no sense if Jesus only "appears" to perform miracles because it's the Father actually working "through" him.
Putting both halves of scripture together, we realize Jesus IS Son of Man just as much as he IS Son of God. We call this the "hypostatic union".
If someone can explain how the Temptation scene makes sense if Jesus is only man, feel free to post your reasoning below.
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Jesus is praying to His Father at John chapter 17, Jesus uses words to express He was with His Father before the world was, before the creation or foundation of the World. Jesus is not just a Man, Jesus is Divine, Isaiah 9:6 says: a child will be born... He will be called... Mighty God.
I do not know the details of all that you believe, [ I believe God is one! God is one person! ] in the time which Moses wrote the book of Exodus Moses wrote at Exodus 7:1 I have made you as God or a god to Pharaoh.. if Moses is as God to Pharaoh does that make two Gods?
Yes! But that does not change the facts, there's only one true God, Like Jesus said at John 17:3
The Bible says there is only one God and beside me there is no other.. is that in conflict with Moses being as God or a God to Pharaoh? I would say no! Why?
- Because there is still only one Almighty God.
- Because the Almighty sent Moses.
- The Almighty instructed Moses on exactly what to say and do.
- No one ever said Moses was the Almighty.
- The Almighty gave Moses the power to say everything and do everything.
Sure sounds like Jesus can rightly be called The Mighty God of Isaiah 9:6 and Jesus words at John 17:3 can be true also.
- All Jewish Religions Believe in One God, One Person. Wouldn't it require a New Commandment or Something to change a belief that's thousands of years old established by God through Moses?
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Bible_Student
Member
Thanks for taking your time to answer, but where is the answer to my question?
The resurrected and not yet ascended Jesus says that his God is his brothers' God in John 20:17.
In Rev. 3:12 he, more than 60 years back in heaven, is still talking about his God and the temple of his God and the heavenly Jerusalem, where his God is.
Do you understand my question?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Almighty God sent both Moses and Jesus and they were both prophets of God, according to my beliefs and according to the Bible.
Jesus referred to Himself as a prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.
It was Christians who elevated Jesus and made Jesus into God with their dogma.
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
The phrase "My God" or "θεον μου" (theon mou) indeed appears in various passages of the Septuagint, particularly in contexts of calling upon God in times of distress or worship:
2 Samuel 22:7 (LXX) – "In my distress, I called upon the Lord, and cried out to my God..."
Psalm 17:7 (LXX) – "Show the wonders of Your lovingkindness, O Savior of those who take refuge at Your right hand from those who rise up against them."
Psalm 29:9 (LXX) – "The voice of the Lord makes the deer give birth and strips the forests bare; and in His temple all cry, 'Glory!'"
Psalm 68:4 (LXX) – "Sing to God, sing praises to His name; extol Him who rides on the clouds, by His name Yah, and rejoice before Him."
Daniel 9:4 (LXX) – "And I prayed to the Lord my God, and made confession, and said, 'O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and mercy with those who love Him and keep His commandments.'"
Jonah 2:3 (LXX) – "For You cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all Your billows and Your waves passed over me."
In John 20:17, Jesus says to Mary Magdalene, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" Here, Jesus seems to reaffirm the relational identity between Himself and the Father, as well as with His disciples. This rhetoric can be seen as a reminder of the fulfillment of the prophecy of the sign of Jonah, where Jesus' resurrection after three days reflects the typology of Jonah:
- Matthew 12:39-40: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
- Matthew 16:4: "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."
- Luke 11:29-30: "For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation."
Additionally, Acts 2:31 and Acts 13:37 directly address Jesus' resurrection, affirming that Jesus' body did not see decay, as He was raised before His body could undergo corruption:
- Acts 2:31: "He, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption."
- Acts 13:37: "But He whom God raised up saw no corruption."
In Ecclesiastes 12:7, it is said that "the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." , Jesus is not merely returning to God in spirit; He is returning in body, soul, and spirit. He transcends the common human condition, as He was gloriously resurrected, which indicates His divine nature and His role as the Son of God.
Therefore, the divinity of Jesus is clearly seen in multiple ways, particularly in how He fulfills Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) prophecies, His victory over death, and the way He speaks of the Father. Jesus' resurrection, with the incorruptibility of His body, is a clear indication that He is more than just a man—He is divine.
If we consider the entire Christian Bible, disregarding the understanding of early Christians like the Ebionites.
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Bible_Student
Member
I don't understand very well what you're trying to say or if you're trying to somehow answer my question ...
Maybe are you saying Jesus talks about "his God" because he feels himself like any other of God's worshippers like David, Daniel and Jonah?
I certainly agree with that:
Heb. 5:7 In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered
So, even if Jesus was/is God's Son, he still is God's worshipper. Don't you think the same?
If we look solely at the literature of the Christian Bible (New Testament), Jesus can be understood as a Christological Elohim, a priest-king, a prophet sent by God, and a theos in a capacity akin to that of Moses. Basil the Great was the first to observe in John 14:10;20 that Jesus's Christological mission could be interpreted as co-equal with God, but this is only one possible interpretation. Saint Augustine explored the logic of Jesus's humanity.
Jesus was the tabernacling of the Logos (John 1:14). The mission of the Logos in the Septuagint was to bestow life, "Zoe," and nonetheless, the Logos worships God. In the Apocalypse, Jesus is the tabernacle of God in His fullness, with His own body being the dwelling place of the Almighty God. Jesus is the lamp whose "oil" is the Almighty God Himself.
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Bible_Student
Member
In view of what Jesus says in John 6:56; 15:4 and 17:21, I do not interpret John 14:10, 20 the same way.
And my question still remains: why if Basil and others say that Jesus and the Father are "co-equal" Jesus does speak of the Father as his own God?
Can you please answer this question? Thanks.
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