Jesus left no writings of His own; we must also consider the early Christians, the Nazarenes, the Ebionites, and various Apostolic Fathers. Regarding the canon, we encounter texts with contested authorship. Thus, tolerance and diligent study are essential, for these "circumstances" did not arise spontaneously; they have foundational origins. I believe that before we criticize, it is imperative to delve deeply and uncover why things are the way they are—naturally, without offending the religious sentiments of others. We do not argue about religion; rather, we respect it! However, for those who are enlightened, not merely impassioned, and who are well-instructed or eager for knowledge, any discussion will prove fruitful.
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Jesus is not God
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Bible_Student
Member
Jesus did not leave any writings of his own, but the holy spirit inspired his followers who knew and heard him in his lifetime, as well as others who lived at the same time, to tell others and write his teachings, also for us to learn them. Everyone who became Christians in the first century learned the same things. They read the gospels that we read today. They also read the letters of Paul, Peter, and the others. As long as later Christians followed the original instructions and teachings they received from Jesus and his apostles, everything went well.
Jesus had said that later the Devil would sow weeds in the field, and that the two would grow together until the wheat was almost choked by weeds. It is like an ancient path that becomes overgrown and hidden in the middle of a forest. But in time the path is uncovered and all the weeds are cut away, and the clear path appears again. That is what Jesus said would happen at the end of time, which is the time in which we live now. We must return to the original teachings while pulling out the weeds from our hearts, weeds that the Devil planted.
What does the Way say about the identity of God?
Jesus had said that later the Devil would sow weeds in the field, and that the two would grow together until the wheat was almost choked by weeds. It is like an ancient path that becomes overgrown and hidden in the middle of a forest. But in time the path is uncovered and all the weeds are cut away, and the clear path appears again. That is what Jesus said would happen at the end of time, which is the time in which we live now. We must return to the original teachings while pulling out the weeds from our hearts, weeds that the Devil planted.
What does the Way say about the identity of God?
1) The word "ascend" in John 20:17 could carry the same sense of intimacy seen in Genesis 44:34 and 46:31. Moreover, Jesus was already in the Father (John 14:20,30), meaning he did not need to "ascend" to the Father, as he was already within Him. Consider that this union might not be permanent but only missiological: a Christological Elohim.
2) The book of Revelation states in 21:22, "And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb." 21:23, "And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp." And in 22:5, "And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever." This reveals that there is no temple, and the body of Jesus is the dwelling place of the Almighty God, from whom all light emanates.
Bible_Student
Member
If I needed sermons, I wouldn't ask an artificial intelligence for them.
My question remains: what do we do with the God of Jesus?
My question remains: what do we do with the God of Jesus?
We do not actually know if Jesus said certain words or if these words were used against the 'other,' which has always been an act used throughout history. We should not be religiously passionate, but rather sober, rational, and loving. We need to make others happy and find the best path to life, 'zoe'; for this, the Logos came.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, I think that the punctuation is incorrect and what you suggested is correct.
The takeaway from that verse is that since no one has ever seen God, Jesus cannot be God, since we know from the Bible that many people saw Jesus.
The following translations of john 1:18 have been altered by Trinitarian Christians in order to make Jesus into God.
I consider this not only dishonest as well as reprehensible.
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway
CSB No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is himself God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him.
ERV No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.
CEV No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.
NET No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.
NIV No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
NLT No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.
By altering the translations, the verse ends up making no logical sense at all.
Jesus was either the Son of God or He was the Father (God). Jesus cannot be both the Son and the Father. That is logically contradictory.
The following translations of John 1:18 are correct.
In short, no one has ever seen God. Jesus, who was the Son of God, has declared God and made God known. Jesus has shown is what God is like.
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway
CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.
KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.
NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.
RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.
The God of Jesus is the Father, where Jesus is fully present and perhaps permanently so! John 14:20,30. They are one (Echad) in substance. According to the Gospel of John, if you worship the Father, you worship Jesus; if you worship Jesus, you worship the Father.
Bible_Student
Member
Jesus' teachings are not philosophical. They are not for inventing theories or complex theologies that lead to absurd conclusions. Note how clear this teaching is:
John 4:21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”
There is no need for any theological explanation of what Jesus says because it is sufficiently clear and concise. What this teaching prompts me to do is to recognize to whom I should direct my worship, according to the words of the Teacher I have chosen for myself (Matthew 23:8).
John 4:21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”
There is no need for any theological explanation of what Jesus says because it is sufficiently clear and concise. What this teaching prompts me to do is to recognize to whom I should direct my worship, according to the words of the Teacher I have chosen for myself (Matthew 23:8).
The phrase "You are gods" is found in John 10:34, where Jesus responds to Jewish leaders accusing Him of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God. Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6: "I said, 'You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.'"
This citation from Psalms refers to judges or leaders who are metaphorically called "gods" due to their role in administering justice and governance on God's behalf. Jesus uses this quotation to argue that if human judges can be called "gods/elohim" in a metaphorical sense, then His claim to be the Son of God should not be considered blasphemy.
The term "gods" here does not imply that humans are divine in an absolute sense but indicates that they have a role of authority and judgment given by God. Jesus is making the case that if Scripture can use the term "gods" for human authorities, then His own claim to be the Son of God should not be seen as a violation of divine honor.
This passage highlights the complexity of Jesus's claims and the theological interpretation of His role as the Son of God, contrasting with the role of human judges described in the Psalm.
1) Jesus was Jewish and was speaking on behalf of the Jews (we).
2) Jesus had not yet died:
Hebrews 9:16-17 "For where there is a testament, it is necessary that the death of the testator be established; for a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives."
Therefore, the example Jesus gives of worshiping on behalf of the Jews is particular to the Jews, not to Christians.
A better question would be: Is Jesus also the Almighty God? The term "theos" in many cases equates to the Hebrew term "elohim", which also refers to human magistrates (Exodus 21:6; 1 Samuel 2:25).
sew.excited73
Wendy-Anne - I am Dutch/British
Or in normal modern English: “No one has ever seen God, but Jesus, who is the Son of God and close to his heart, has explained to us what God is like.”
sew.excited73
Wendy-Anne - I am Dutch/British
Funny how things come full circle again, isn’t it? With some government leaders and scientists behaving like they are Gods again now.
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I Agree, I think the words in the Bible are so valuable, No matter if you believe in One God that is three in One, or One God that is One Person. - The scripture applies, does it not? No man has ever seen God at any time. If Jesus is God that would include Jesus would it not?
I don't know why people take other scriptures seriously but this scripture seems to have just no meaning for most?
cataway
Well-Known Member
thinking there is about 20 different gods are mentioned in the bible. even the belly of man can be a god
In the Bible, Acts 12:22-23 describes how Herod Agrippa I was struck down by an angel of the Lord after giving a public speech and the people shouted, "It is the voice of a god, and not of a man":
Acts 12:22-23 New International Version
They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.” Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
Regardless of the nature of the biblical narrative—whether mythological, metaphorical, or historical—the acclamation of the king as theos, or more as a divine elohim within the context, indicates that because he was king, he already possessed the nature of an elohim, and that the popular acclamation merely elevated this condition to divinity in a figurative manner.
This is the point! theos is polysemantic and using only this term to prove the deity of Jesus is not a good idea.
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walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I agree with you on the words Elohim and Theos
The definition of the word Elohim:
H430 אלהים - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Number
'ĕlôhı̂ym
1. (plural)
a. rulers, judges
b. divine ones
c. angels
d. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a. god, goddess
b. godlike one
c. works or special possessions of God
d. the (true) God
e. God
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, the scripture applies to who Jesus was and what Jesus did --
The only begotten Son who was in the bosom of the Father declared God the Father.
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway
KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
It is not that the verse has no meaning, it is that Christians do not accept what it means... Jesus is not God.
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I agree and like your comment.. It took me a long, long time before I put stock in God's Word fully!
The A part of John 1:18, is the same in every Bible in every language, the B part of that verse varies from Bible to Bible, But the A Part is always the same!
- Jesus talking at Luke 8:21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
- Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. -Psalms 119:105 KJV
- For as many things as have been written before have been written for our instruction, that through endurance and through encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope. -Romans 15:4 DARBY
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Oeste
Well-Known Member
Yes, which makes Jesus God.
When a dog begets, he begets nothing more or less than a dog.
When a man begets, he begets nothing more or less than a man.
When God begets, he begets nothing more or less than God.
Why?
Because the begotten are no more or less in nature than their begetter.
So when we beget, we beget what we are, and not something we are not.
There has been no evidence presented that runs contrary to this, and until some is presented, I think the matter has been resolved in a logically consistent, rather than inconsistent manner.
If begotten of man it is man. I see no evidence to the contrary.
If begotten by God, it is God. I see no evidence to the contrary.
Don't get me wrong... there is plenty of dogma to the contrary, but no evidence.
Agreed, but if the Father is a fish, the Son is a fish.
Again, we have no logical, coherent evidence leading us to believe the contrary.
There is an old saying:
1. Show me where Jesus, the Son of Man has lied, and I will show you a Jesus that is not the Son of God.
2. Show me where Jesus, the Son of Man needs to repent, because he hath said something he does not intend to do, and I will show a Jesus that is not the Son of God.
3. Show me where Jesus, the Son of Man needs to repent, because he hath spoken but has no intent on making good on what he spoke, and I will show you a Jesus that is not the Son of God.
Show us these things, and I'll show you a Jesus who is not God.
We needed a mediator who could reconcile man with God. Jesus fits the bill as he is fully God and man.
I'll give the same answer Jesus gave:
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
If Jesus cannot be God because "no man has seen God", then Jesus cannot be man because "he can only do what he sees his Father doing".
So, following Arian Christology, we now we have a Jesus who is not man or God. As such, mankind has no kinsman redeemer to serve as mediator between God and man.
How do Arians resolve this in a logically consistent manner?