Jesus is not God

[walt]

Personally, I don't see any conflict in these statements. Jesus is clearly defining His status and His relationship to/with His Father. (BTW, these statements are not questions, so your punctuation is misleading.

John 17:22 clearly shows that Jesus and His Father are one. And God's adopted children -- Christians -- are one with them.

I'm sorry, I did not word my question correctly, what I meant to say:

How do we understand these four verses, when we reflect and consider everything else Jesus had to say in his entire Ministry?

I agree with your comment fully, [ I find no conflict in these four scriptures, or anything else Jesus says about his unity with his Father. ] some use the first 2 scriptures to prove the Trinity [ I find this to be conflicting ], but I feel if we consider all four scriptures, Jesus is explaining His Perfect Unity with his Father.

Thank You for correcting me Please help me to reflect, consider and value everything Jesus says, to form my beliefs. I would rather need correction all day long, then not listen to Jesus every word.

 

[walt]

If we look for harmony, reflect, consider and value everything Jesus said, how would we understand John 8:58 ?

John 8:58
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” NIV

John 17:5
And now glorify Me, You Father, with Yourself, with the glory that I had with You before the world existed. Berean literal Bible

John 17:24
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

John 8:28
So Jesus told them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me. International Standard Version

After Jesus rose from the dead he said this to his disciples:
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. New King James Bible

Or does John 8:58 or another scripture explain: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one God? They are equal and with no beginning?

 

[Oeste]

Hi Trailblazer!,

Jesus had a human mother and He was born of the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean that God was His father.

It means he was both human and God. As the Son of Man he is fully human. As the Son of God, he is fully God.

God cannot have offspring.

Where is this in scripture? Also, why would Jesus need to be "offspring" when he was already preexistent??

Jesus was the only person to be born of a mortal mother, Mary, and an immortal father, God the Father.

This statement contradicts your prior statement.

You just told us that being born of the Holy Spirit does not mean God was the father. Now you assert Jesus' father is God the Father.

I find these kinds of contradictions to be a common (and valid) criticism of Baháʼí Christology but I don't want to get into a long elaboration here. I am merely pointing out what appears to be, IMO, an inconsistent pattern of assertions and rationale they have concerning Jesus.

That is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten Son of God.

We went through this before and you never answered my query directly, except to say the Son is not the Father which is something we all can agree on.

You claim Jesus is less than God even though he was begotten by God.

Yet no begotten frog is less begotten frog, no begotten dog is less begotten dog, and no man is less begotten man. The begotten always have the same nature as the begetter, a pattern set by God.

Several times you have stated the Son is not the Father, but begotten does not mean the Son is the Father, or that the Father is the Son. It simply means that the Son has the same nature as the Father. When man begets, his begotten by nature is man. His begotten is no more or less a man than his begetter. The same hold true for everything else that begets...they follow the pattern set by God, and their begotten are no more or less the nature of their begetter.

In short, their is no consistent reason under the sun for Jesus to be less man than his mother, or less God then his Father.

Secondly, Jesus must be as fully man as the 1st Adam if he is to be the "2nd Adam". Replacing a fully human Adam with a hybrid creature or manifestation makes no logical sense in the redemptive paradigm.

Third, he must be fully man and fully God if He is to serve as mediator between God and Man. If a dispute arises between Man and Horse (Equine), you don't send a horse to mediate, because he would only be party to the horse, and you don't send a man to mediate, because he would only be party to the man. And you don't send a half-man, half-horse hybrid (Centaur) to mediate because it would only be party to itself, neither understanding or having the capacity to satisfy any of the disputing parties.

Only someone who is both God and Man could properly mediate and atone for this dispute between God and Man. It's why the sacrifice of goats and sheep on the altar could never quite cut it.

I am digressing a bit, but I believe it important to our discussion. Let's continue...

 

[Oeste]

...continued

From His Father, He inherited divine powers (see John 10:17–18).

Jesus preexisted his birth. He was always God in His preexistent state and so did not need to inherit anything. After all, He is the Son of God.

After his birth and task as the Son of Man he asked the Father to restore the glory he once had before. Remember, this is not Jesus asking the Father if he can skim a little of His glory for the Son. This is Jesus asking for His glory back:

"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" John 17:5​

"Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen" Ephesians 3:20-21​

How can Jesus ask for his glory when ALL glory is to God?

Why would Jesus even bother to ask when God does not share His glory with another?

“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images” Isaiah 42:8)

Under Trinitarian doctrine, these are easy questions to answer. As Unitarian or Arian, they are rarely if ever asked.

A man is human so a man has a son and his son has a human nature - but the son is not exactly the same as his father -- the son is not the father.

See above. Begetting does not mean the Son is the same as the Father. It means the Son has the same nature as the Father. If the Father is human, then the Son will be human.

Jesus had a human nature AND a divine nature, since He was born of Mary AND the Holy Spirit of God.

Given our language and the grammatical constructions surrounding it, I would say he is both human and Divine, but no less human, and no less Divine.

If no man has seen God at any time that means Jesus cannot be God, since many people saw Jesus

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise" (John 5:19)​

That should settle whether Jesus saw the Father.

This is not a contradiction. Both "no mans has seen God" and Jesus seeing God are truth. As the Son of God Jesus sees God. As the Son of Man, he could not. It's time to move on.

It is logically impossible to be FULLY God and FULLY man.

That's exactly what was required , and exactly what Jesus was. You can read my explanation above.

Jesus was PART God and PART man since he has a human nature and a divine nature.

Then he could not possibly mediate or redeem anybody.

A perfect half man can only redeem imperfect half men @Trailblazer. You cannot possibly expect to cash in 50 cents and get a $1.00 back. This assertion makes no logical sense. Again, if you don't believe me, ask our JW friends. They'll tell you what was necessary to atone for Adam's sin. Ask them if a half man would have done the trick.

Better yet, see @jimb's post # 1120.

The idea you can bargain with less and get more may be Bahai, but not Christian belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

It means he was both human and God. As the Son of Man he is fully human. As the Son of God, he is fully God.

Being born of Mary means Jesus was a human who has a human nature.
Being born of the Holy Spirit means Jesus was a man who had a divine nature.

Where is this in scripture?

God is a spirit is in scripture. A spirit does not have offspring. Only biological entities reproduce and have offspring.

Also, why would Jesus need to be "offspring" when he was already preexistent??

Jesus was not offspring. The soul of Jesus preexisted in the spiritual world before the body of Jesus was born of Mary and the Holy Spirit in this world.

This statement contradicts your prior statement.

You just told us that being born of the Holy Spirit does not mean God was the father. Now you assert Jesus' father is God the Father.

Jesus was the only person to be born of a mortal mother, Mary, and an immortal father, God the Father.

The above statement in bold wasn't MY statement. It is something I got off the internet and I don't agree with it because God was not Jesus' father.

You claim Jesus is less than God even though he was begotten by God.

Jesus is less than God because God is greater than Jesus, according to Jesus, who said that God was greater than He was:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Yet no begotten frog is less begotten frog, no begotten dog is less begotten dog, and no man is less begotten man. The begotten always have the same nature as the begetter, a pattern set by God.

I am not saying that Jesus did not have God's nature, a divine nature. What I am saying is that does not make Jesus equal to God.

Several times you have stated the Son is not the Father, but begotten does not mean the Son is the Father, or that the Father is the Son. It simply means that the Son has the same nature as the Father. When man begets, his begotten by nature is man. His begotten is no more or less a man than his begetter. The same hold true for everything else that begets...they follow the pattern set by God, and their begotten are no more or less the nature of their begetter.

Again, I am not saying that Jesus did not have God's nature, a divine nature. What I am saying is that does not make Jesus equal to God.

In short, their is no consistent reason under the sun for Jesus to be less man than his mother, or less God then his Father.

The reason is that Jesus said that He was less than His Father, as noted above.

Secondly, Jesus must be as fully man as the 1st Adam if he is to be the "2nd Adam". Replacing a fully human Adam with a hybrid creature or manifestation makes no logical sense in the redemptive paradigm.

What makes no logical sense is God dying on the cross to redeem humanity since God is eternal and cannot die.

Third, he must be fully man and fully God if He is to serve as mediator between God and Man

It is logically impossible for Jesus to be fully man and fully God.
If Jesus was fully man Jesus could not be anything but a man.
If Jesus was fully God Jesus could not be anything but God.

Only someone who is both God and Man could properly mediate and atone for this dispute between God and Man. It's why the sacrifice of goats and sheep on the altar could never quite cut it.

Only someone with a human nature and a divine nature could properly mediate and atone for any dispute between God and man.

Jesus was a man with a human nature and a divine nature.
Since Jesus had both a human nature and a divine nature Jesus could understand both man and God and mediate between them.

A mediator mediates between two disparate entities, God and man.
Jesus was the one mediator between the one God and man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus preexisted his birth. He was always God in His preexistent state and so did not need to inherit anything. After all, He is the Son of God.

Jesus preexisted with God in the spiritual world before His birth in this world.
Jesus was never God. It was Christian doctrines that made Jesus into God. The Bible does not support this belief.

I am done arguing since it is an exercise in futility. You can try to use Bible verses to try to prove you are right and I could use them to prove you are wrong, and this could go on forever. If you want to believe that Jesus is God it doesn't matter to me one iota since I know that Jesus is not God. That is not only because I am a Baha'i. There are lots of Christians who also do not believe that Jesus is God.

The Bible says there is only one God and one Christ Jesus.

Does Only One God Exist?

A point that the Scripture clearly establishes is that there is only one God who exists. We find this truth clearly taught in both testaments. The Testimony

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Truthseeker]

There is Harmony and Complementarity. The following article helps to explain why Jesus said what He said.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)…..

The New Testament, similarly, contains statements where Jesus describes Himself as God, and others where He makes a distinction between Himself and God. For example, 'I and the Father are One (John 10:30); and 'the Father is in me, and I am in the Father (John 1038); but on the other hand, 'the Father is greater than I (John 14:28); and 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). These statements do not contradict, but are complementary if one assumes they assert an epistemological oneness with God, but an ontological separateness from the Unknowable Essence.”

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

Robert Stockman is a Bible scholar. He was the head of the Wilmette Institute where I had many courses. On Zoom I had conversation with him on a course about Zoroaster. He is a pleasant man to talk to. He also wrote the book about the early origins of the Baha'i Faith in America I read years ago.

Robert Stockman (born October 6, 1953) is a scholar specializing in Baháʼí studies who has been called "the foremost historian of the Baháʼí Faith in America."[1] He received his undergraduate degree from Wesleyan University (B.A., 1975) and a doctorate in religious studies from Harvard University (Th.D., 1990).[2]

Robert Stockman was raised in Granby, Connecticut by Harold Herman and Margery (Fothergill) Stockman, who worked as apple farmers. He initially majored in geology at Wesleyan University and later received a master's degree in planetary science from Brown University, with a particular interest in the geology of Mars. He was introduced to the Baháʼí Faith while an undergraduate student and converted at the age of twenty, on October 16, 1973.[3] He has been an active Baháʼí since his conversion, and in 1979 participated in mass teachings in rural central Florida.[1]

During his studies for his master's degree in geology, he developed an interest in the history of the Baháʼí community in Rhode Island which led to his researching the biography of Thornton Chase. This endeavor led to the publication of Baha'i Faith in America: Origins 1892–1900,[4] followed by Baha'i Faith in America, The: Early Expansion, 1900–1912 Volume 2[5] before the ultimate publishing of Thornton Chase: First American Baha'i.[6] Starting in 1989, he has worked for the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, based in Wilmette, Illinois, in various capacities. He is married to Mana Derakhshani.

Subsequent to earning his doctorate from Harvard Divinity School,[7] Stockman began teaching at the DePaul University in Chicago prior to proceeding to his current position as a lecturer at Indiana University South Bend, where he teaches religious studies. He serves as director of the Wilmette Institute.[8] He has served on the boards of the Baháʼí Encyclopedia project, the Association for Baháʼí studies, and World Order magazine. He has lectured on Baháʼí topics across the world and is a frequent contributor to Baháʼí panels at the American Academy of Religion.

Robert Stockman - Wikipedia

Not many Baha'is are in Wikipedia. I didn't know a lot of this.

 

[Truthseeker]

Here's a picture of him with his wife:

 

[Oeste]

Hello @walt,

“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text.” Anyone can quote a Bible verse, out of context, and make a case for a particular view or doctrine. This is known as “proof texting”.

People have been using that excuse, for a long time

Exactly right @walt. Proof texting has been with us for ages.

I don't believe anyone can explain all the details of the trinity with Jesus words, whether you take them in context, out of context, however you like it?

You're asking me to describe God, and you're right! It's much easier to describe the created gods of the pagans then it is to describe the Christian God. After all, we created the pagan gods and we should be able to easily describe them. They'll look a lot like us.



Earlier you told us the following:

Informative, I prefer easy to understand words directly from Jesus. Jesus words is My Rock! My Foundation! My Truth!

As Christians, Jesus is our Rock, Foundation and Truth, just as you stated. As a matter of fact, Jesus told us “I am the way and the truth and the life..." so it's an important concept for us to remember and have.

So I was rather surprised when you suggested we only use the words of Jesus. I couldn't understand why anyone would do this.

Don't get me wrong. When you're in class discussing scripture, taking on the role of Jesus, a Pharisee, a common Roman or gentile, a Christian, an Emperor, or an apostle can help students learn scripture from various perspectives in fun and dramatic ways. There were a lot of powerful groups with different interests and dynamics during the early church, and this type of exercise enriches the scripture by allowing students to imagine what it was like to live in ancient times, and why certain characters spoke and acted as they did. One favorite exercise is to have one person take on the role of James while the other takes on the role of Paul.

But what if all voices were silenced, and only one person was allowed to speak?

Why you would lose all context. Jesus might call someone a hypocrite, and you would have no idea why. He might reprove a Pharisee, again you might not know why. He might be crying in the courtyard, again you're at a loss. He may be walking with the apostles swirling, talking and joking around him, but if he's only smiling you have no idea why.

In fact, you may wonder why he's here in the first place, because you haven't listened to John the Baptist when only Jesus is allowed to speak.

That a lot of history, culture, and scripture to miss. But there's a solution. It's in the words of Jesus:

"Scripture cannot be broken" Jesus @ John 10:35

Jesus' statement at John 10:35 is short and parenthetical. For the believing Christian, it means scripture must be taken as a whole and cannot be ripped apart, broken, or separated from other scripture. As one writer put it:

Jesus is saying, every word of God written in the Scripture stands immutable and indestructible in its eternal verity. No word of it be dissolved by any human authority. Scripture will not be affected by criticism or denial of theology.​

God's word cannot be broken @walt. We had the first breakage of God's word in the garden and I see no need to continue that pattern here. I'm not judging your personal theology, I believe you study hard and you've shown you know and understand a lot about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

It's just that from my perspective, God requires us to be adorned in full armor, and for that we need the entirety of His word. I see no need to rip off my breast plate or helmet to pick up a glove. We have anti-Pauline acolytes on this forum, who insists we throw this book or that away in the hope of keeping arguments more favorable to their narrowed doctrine. I do not abide them.

Again, if you can find 5 verses from Jesus that tell us it's fine to sweep the prophets under the bus, then yes, I'd be happy to engage. But sweeping them under the bus is exactly what I feel we would be doing, and I would be doing something Jesus told me specifically not to do: break scripture.

So for these reasons I must respectfully decline. I'll be happy to discuss the Trinity with you, but if we're discussing Jesus and if we agree that Jesus is our truth, then from my perspective, all scripture is on the table.

 

[Oeste]

I am done arguing since it is an exercise in futility. You can try to use Bible verses to try to prove you are right and I could use them to prove you are wrong, and this could go on forever.

Agreed!

You have a very confusing Jesus, @Trailblazer, and many of the terms you use to describe him appear at serious odds with each other.

If you want to believe that Jesus is God it doesn't matter to me one iota since I know that Jesus is not God.

Of course no one is going to convince the other, but the forum allows us to discuss our perspectives. I think the discussion I had with you was invaluable. It's not a conversation I can expect to get from my local coffee shop.

That is not only because I am a Baha'i. There are lots of Christians who also do not believe that Jesus is God.

Agreed. I used to be one of them.

Have a great morning @Trailblazer. I am going to get some sleep and I have a lot to do in the morning. I appreciate the courteous responses.

 

[Truthseeker]

@Trailblazer, did you see this by Robert Stockman.

Modern Christians sometimes use passages from the New Testament as titles or descriptions of Jesus. Perhaps the best example would be John 14:6, '1 am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me'. Bahá'í would not reject this passage from the Gospel of John, but they would interpret it differently than most Christians. Two possible approaches come to mind. One would be to examine the word 'I'; to whom is Jesus referring? To Himself, certainly, but could He not be referring to all Manifestations in general, since, as Bahá'u'lláh explains, one of the stations of the Manifestations is 'pure abstraction and essential unity' (Gleanings 51)? Thus, Jesus's statement would never have been meant to exclude the other Manifestations, especially not Himself when He returned – that is, in the person of Bahá'u'lláh. A Christian theologian, John Cobb, has also recognised the ambiguity of 'I' and has suggested that the 'I' refers not to the historical Jesus, but to the eternal logos manifested in Jesus.[9] In Bahá'í terms, Cobb is suggesting that the 'I' refers to the Holy Spirit common to all the Manifestations, or to their station of unity.

One could also examine the word 'am'. The verb to be has many uses – the Oxford English Dictionary lists twenty four – some of which are normally distinguished from each other only by context. One grammatical usage is the universal present, which is used to make statements that are always true, such as 'triangles are three-sided'. Another usage applies to the present, but may not apply to the future as well, such as 'I am young' or 'I am alive'. Christians usually understand the statement 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life', as a universal present, but could it not be meant to apply only to some period of time in the past? Could not Abraham have been the way, truth, and life for the peoples of the Middle East from 2000 BCE to respect in the English language that is applied the time of Moses; then Moses was the way, truth, and life until the time of Jesus; then Jesus was the way, truth, and life until the time of Muhammad; and so on? Similarly, Bahá'u'lláh is the way, truth, and life until He will be superseded by another Manifestation, which He assures us will occur after a thousand years (Gleanings 346).

 

[walt]

Hello @walt,




Exactly right @walt. Proof texting has been with us for ages.


You're asking me to describe God, and you're right! It's much easier to describe the created gods of the pagans then it is to describe the Christian God. After all, we created the pagan gods and we should be able to easily describe them. They'll look a lot like us.



Earlier you told us the following:



As Christians, Jesus is our Rock, Foundation and Truth, just as you stated. As a matter of fact, Jesus told us “I am the way and the truth and the life..." so it's an important concept for us to remember and have.

So I was rather surprised when you suggested we only use the words of Jesus. I couldn't understand why anyone would do this.

Don't get me wrong. When you're in class discussing scripture, taking on the role of Jesus, a Pharisee, a common Roman or gentile, a Christian, an Emperor, or an apostle can help students learn scripture from various perspectives in fun and dramatic ways. There were a lot of powerful groups with different interests and dynamics during the early church, and this type of exercise enriches the scripture by allowing students to imagine what it was like to live in ancient times, and why certain characters spoke and acted as they did. One favorite exercise is to have one person take on the role of James while the other takes on the role of Paul.

But what if all voices were silenced, and only one person was allowed to speak?

Why you would lose all context. Jesus might call someone a hypocrite, and you would have no idea why. He might reprove a Pharisee, again you might not know why. He might be crying in the courtyard, again you're at a loss. He may be walking with the apostles swirling, talking and joking around him, but if he's only smiling you have no idea why.

In fact, you may wonder why he's here in the first place, because you haven't listened to John the Baptist when only Jesus is allowed to speak.

That a lot of history, culture, and scripture to miss. But there's a solution. It's in the words of Jesus:

"Scripture cannot be broken" Jesus @ John 10:35

Jesus' statement at John 10:35 is short and parenthetical. For the believing Christian, it means scripture must be taken as a whole and cannot be ripped apart, broken, or separated from other scripture. As one writer put it:

Jesus is saying, every word of God written in the Scripture stands immutable and indestructible in its eternal verity. No word of it be dissolved by any human authority. Scripture will not be affected by criticism or denial of theology.​

God's word cannot be broken @walt. We had the first breakage of God's word in the garden and I see no need to continue that pattern here. I'm not judging your personal theology, I believe you study hard and you've shown you know and understand a lot about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

It's just that from my perspective, God requires us to be adorned in full armor, and for that we need the entirety of His word. I see no need to rip off my breast plate or helmet to pick up a glove. We have anti-Pauline acolytes on this forum, who insists we throw this book or that away in the hope of keeping arguments more favorable to their narrowed doctrine. I do not abide them.

Again, if you can find 5 verses from Jesus that tell us it's fine to sweep the prophets under the bus, then yes, I'd be happy to engage. But sweeping them under the bus is exactly what I feel we would be doing, and I would be doing something Jesus told me specifically not to do: break scripture.

So for these reasons I must respectfully decline. I'll be happy to discuss the Trinity with you, but if we're discussing Jesus and if we agree that Jesus is our truth, then from my perspective, all scripture is on the table.

Please just use Jesus words and explain:

The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one God? They are equal and with no beginning?

 

[Trailblazer]

Christians usually understand the statement 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life', as a universal present, but could it not be meant to apply only to some period of time in the past? Could not Abraham have been the way, truth, and life for the peoples of the Middle East from 2000 BCE to respect in the English language that is applied the time of Moses; then Moses was the way, truth, and life until the time of Jesus; then Jesus was the way, truth, and life until the time of Muhammad; and so on? Similarly, Bahá'u'lláh is the way, truth, and life until He will be superseded by another Manifestation, which He assures us will occur after a thousand years (Gleanings 346).

It was 'assumed' by Christians that Jesus is the way, and the truth, and the life for all of eternity, but Jesus did not say that.

During the Mosaic Dispensation, Moses was the way, truth, and life.....

During the Christian Dispensation, Jesus was the way, and the truth, and the life......

Now that we are living in the Baha'i Dispensation, Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the way, and the truth, and the life.

Dispensation

- the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
- an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
- a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

And speaking of light...

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 71-72

 

[cataway]

It was 'assumed' by Christians that Jesus is the way, and the truth, and the life for all of eternity, but Jesus did not say that.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 71-72

John 14:6 New International Version 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[jimb]

The OP says that "Jesus is not God", but that is totally wrong! Anyone who reads the Bible and/or receives a revelation from God about the matter knows that Jesus was/is/will be God.

 

[Muffled]

I can consider a concept that God worked in Jesus, but not the concept of the trinity. The trinity teaching teaches that God became a man and then it teaches that well "God the Father really didn't, but He did, but He didn't, but He did, but He didn't..."

See the typical creed. In one sentence we have: "I believe one God, the Father, the Almighty..." It's a complete statement, a complete sentence. Here, God is clearly identified as one, the Father. Then it adds more. I see it as an attempt to teach the truth, but also include the adaptations for Greco-Roman polytheists.

So, I don't have the same understanding as you with regards to the relationship of Jesus to God, but I have a monotheistic belief about it, as you do. Your thinking reflects purity, including in the search for truth, IMHO.

I don't believe I find the teaching to be that way. I believe the Trinity is not God becoming a man but rather God inhabiting a man and then abiding with believers as well.

I believe that is not the case.

 

[Muffled]

The NT has five versions of Jesus and each of them denies that he's God and never claims to be God. Once again, you'll find some of the relevant quotes set out here >Jesus Failed Right?<

If you think that's not a leg to stand on then it appears we disagree. So far, on what you base your counter-argument is altogether unclear.

There's also the problem of the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of Matthew saying (on the cross) "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" and all four gospel versions saying in the Garden, "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me" ─ which I respectfully submit is just silly.

I run across people all the time who prefer to live in darkness than come to the light. I debated the nay sayers for over 700 pages and all they could do is repeat their negativity. There is a great deal of evidence that Jesus is God in the flesh and none that He isn't

 

[Muffled]

Agreed, but then Jesus was God's begotten son, Adam was not.



No angel is called the begotten Son of God. Jesus is the begotten Son of God.



Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God.

I believe the unique quality of the virgin birth suggests God doing His thing but it does not guarantee that the Spirit in Jesus is God. That comes with the angel Gabriel's statement that the Spirit will come upon Mary.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 14:6 New International Version 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Give it up for lost. Jesus is not the Only Way to God. There have been many other Ways to God all throughout history.

Before Jesus, Moses was a Way to God for the Jews. Religions such as Hinduism existed long before Christianity and had Krishna as a Way to God. Muslims have Muhammad as a Way and Baha'is have Baha'u'llah as a Way.

The arrogance of Christianity believing Jesus is the Only Way is appalling and I am not in the mood to listen to it today. It sickens me to death.


The consensus from extensive study of Bible scholars is that Jesus NEVER uttered those words. That would make perfect sense because Jesus was humble, so Jesus would never declare that He is the Only Way to the Father.

Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.

“Most scholars, if they had worked through the sayings as we had, would tend to agree there is virtually nothing in the fourth Gospel (John) that goes back to Jesus,” said Robert Fortna of Vassar College. Jesus says in John “I am the good shepherd . . . I am the light of the world . . . I am the bread of life,” but that “is mostly the work of the author,” Fortna said. Jesus rarely refers to himself in the other Gospels.

THE REJECTED SAYINGS

The Jesus Seminar, a six-year project based in Sonoma to assess the historical authenticity of sayings attributed to Jesus, concluded that about half were words put into his mouth by Gospel authors and early believers in reflection of their own hopes and fears. Among the sayings rejected were the following:

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”

John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Mark 13:25, 30: (A series of apocalyptic sayings) “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory. . . . Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.”

Matthew 5:11: “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”

Mark 10:32-34: “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”

Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.

The provocative Jesus Seminar on Sunday concluded six years of voting on what the Jesus of history most likely said, ruling out about 80% of words attributed to him in the Gospels and emerging with the picture of a prophet-sage who told parables and made pithy comments.

www.latimes.com

 

[blü 2]

I run across people all the time who prefer to live in darkness than come to the light. I debated the nay sayers for over 700 pages and all they could do is repeat their negativity. There is a great deal of evidence that Jesus is God in the flesh and none that He isn't

You duck the problem that each of the five versions of Jesus in the NT expressly denies that he's God and never claims to be God.

But of course Jesus can be anything you wish. My argument is only with those who claim the NT supports the idea that Jesus is God ─ since plainly the NT unwaveringly rejects that notion.