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Jesus is not God

What do you mean by "....real answer to my question"??...
The same question I been asking from the beginning in all the ways I can think on using to see if there is any valid answer to it:
@Oeste this question is also for you, if you can answer it, please. Thanks.

Could you tell us why, if you consider Jesus to be God, he himself says that he has a God who is the God of his brothers in John 20:17?


PS: Keep in mind that there are many other texts in the Bible saying that Jesus has a God.
In other words: what do we do with Jesus' God
...WHO IS NOT any of a Trinity?

All different ways of asking ... and you're going all beating around the bush. I may think in other different ways if needed. That is a very important question about Jesus' teachings:

What God does Jesus teach about?
Could we replace the God of Jesus with the Trinity without ceasing to be true followers of Jesus' teachings?
Can we still be "brothers" of Jesus if we stop having the same God and Father that he speaks of in John 20:17?

All those are different ways of asking the same: what do we do with Jesus' and our must-be God?
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The same question I been asking from the beginning in all the ways I can think on using to see if there is any valid answer to it:

In other words: what do we do with Jesus' God
...WHO IS NOT any of a Trinity?

All different ways of asking ... and you're going all beating around the bush. I may think in other different ways if needed. That is a very important question about Jesus' teachings:

What God does Jesus teach about?
Could we replace the God of Jesus with the Trinity without ceasing to be true followers of Jesus' teachings?
Can we still be "brothers" of Jesus if we stop having the same God and Father that he speaks of in John 20:17?

All those are different ways of asking the same: what do we do with Jesus' and our must-be God?
I can't follow you.

The Trinity is not an easy concept to understand, but that doesn't invalidate it.

I am one person, but I am also body, mind, and spirit. Three in one!

I am one person, but I am also a son, a husband, and a father. Three in one!

I am a male, an American, and a retiree. Three in one!
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The same question I been asking from the beginning in all the ways I can think on using to see if there is any valid answer to it:

In other words: what do we do with Jesus' God
...WHO IS NOT any of a Trinity?

All different ways of asking ... and you're going all beating around the bush. I may think in other different ways if needed. That is a very important question about Jesus' teachings:

What God does Jesus teach about?
Could we replace the God of Jesus with the Trinity without ceasing to be true followers of Jesus' teachings?
Can we still be "brothers" of Jesus if we stop having the same God and Father that he speaks of in John 20:17?

All those are different ways of asking the same: what do we do with Jesus' and our must-be God?
If you don't understand the Trinity, that doesn't invalidate it! It simply means that you lack understanding.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
I can't follow you.

The Trinity is not an easy concept to understand, but that doesn't invalidate it.

I am one person, but I am also body, mind, and spirit. Three in one!

I am one person, but I am also a son, a husband, and a father. Three in one!

I am a male, an American, and a retiree. Three in one!
but you make discissions all by your self .there is no conference of discussions. its just you
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
but you make discissions all by your self .there is no conference of discussions. its just you
What does "there is no conference of discussions" mean? Of course I make the decisions. That has absolutely nothing to do with my body, mind, and spirit being separate parts of me.

Who knows me better? You or me???
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I can't follow you.

The Trinity is not an easy concept to understand, but that doesn't invalidate it.

I am one person, but I am also body, mind, and spirit. Three in one!

I am one person, but I am also a son, a husband, and a father. Three in one!

I am a male, an American, and a retiree. Three in one!
Don't you think Jimb it is better to let Moses explain in his words the concepts we should accept? Or Jesus or an Apostle?

I think we have two choices we can look up 100 scriptures and talk about concepts we think of or we can accept Jesus words as instructions for us.

Is Jesus words at John 17:3 and John 20:17 so hard for us to understand? Much kindness to you and your family. :twohearts:
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Don't you think Jimb it is better to let Moses explain in his words the concepts we should accept? Or Jesus or an Apostle?

I think we have two choices we can look up 100 scriptures and talk about concepts we think of or we can accept Jesus words as instructions for us.

Is Jesus words at John 17:3 and John 20:17 so hard for us to understand? Much kindness to you and your family. :twohearts:
Is there anything wrong with living people communicating their thoughts (as you and I and others have done)?

BTW, which words of Moses are you referring to?
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I believe the unique quality of the virgin birth suggests God doing His thing but it does not guarantee that the Spirit in Jesus is God. That comes with the angel Gabriel's statement that the Spirit will come upon Mary.
Wrong.

"After Jesus was baptized, just as he was coming up out of the water, the heavens opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him." Matthew 3:16
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Is there anything wrong with living people communicating their thoughts (as you and I and others have done)?

BTW, which words of Moses are you referring to?
No but, I like to put the words of Jesus, Moses or an Apostle way before my own thoughts. :)
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I use specific words from Jesus and the Apostles, to form my beliefs.
  • Jesus is Divine, is implied in these verses. John 1:1, 3, 14; John 17:5, Colossians 1:16
  • Praying to his Father: You, the only true God, Jn 17:3; 20:17, 1 Cor 11:3, Eph 1:17, Col 1:3, 1 Tim 2:5, Eph 4:5-6, 1 Cor 8:6, Jn 14:1, Rev 1:1
  • For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. Jn 12:49, Jn 15:19, Jn 14:10, Jn 7:16
  • “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Jn 4:34, Matt 4:4, 26:42, Jn 6:38, Jn 17:4
  • Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me Matt 28:18 KJV, Philippians 2:9-10, Acts 2:32-33,
  • The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, John 5:19, John 8:28, John 5:30
Which rendering of John 1:1 do you feel is in Harmony with all Jesus and the Apostles words, cited above?
Do you reflect, consider and highly value Jesus words listed above, as well as the Apostles words?

KJV(i) 1611
In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NSB(i) Bible 2003-2006
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was like God (God-like).

Moffatt(i) 1922-1934
THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.

Diaglott(i) The Emphatic Diaglott 1864
In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.

2001translation An American English Bible
In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with The God (gr. Ton Theon) and the Word was a powerful one (gr. theos or god-like).

Any of these verses you feel are taken out of context, please make a comment to me and I will investigate, thank you so much for your help.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I use specific words from Jesus and scripture, to form my beliefs.
  • Jesus is The Mighty God from Isaiah 9:6
That is not in the New Testament, so how can it be from Jesus?

I do not believe that Isaiah 9:6 is about Jesus.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword.

Matthew 10:34-39 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Jesus did not have the government upon His shoulder.
Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's. (Matthew 22:21)

Jesus was the Son of God, not the everlasting Father.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Please just use Jesus words and explain:

The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one God? They are equal and with no beginning?

Please just use Jesus words and explain:

Jesus said to throw scripture under the bus? The apostles are not to be believed? No other words but the words of Jesus are inspired?

I not seeing any consistency in your assertion @walt. You have one standard for the Trinity doctrine, and another for "Red letters only".

You asked for 20 verses supporting the Trinity doctrine from the lips of Jesus, and I'm only asking you for 5 verses supporting "Red letters only" from the exact same source!

That seems more than fair to me @walt.

Jesus has already spoken on this subject. Scripture cannot be broken, and I find no reason for us to break Jesus from his disciples unless to imply his disciples were frauds and jokesters.

In fact, I find it as bad if not worse than the anti-Pauline factions on this forum who want us to throw out all 13 books attributed to Paul.

Anyone can take verses out of context and "proof-text" @walt. That's not an "excuse", it's simply an unfortunate fact.
As Christians, it's important to keep scripture within its proper context. If you can give us 5 "Jesus only" scriptures where Jesus debunks his own apostles you'll be well on your way to making a point.

Also, from a strictly technical point of view, I suspect you would not be able to hold to a "Red letter only" standard. Once you show me a verse you think shows Jesus is not God, and I state it shows no such thing, you will launch into an explanation that is anything but "Red letters only".

So I encourage you to keep studying and grow in the word of God, but not only with the parts you like, but even the parts you don't.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Being born of Mary means Jesus was a human who has a human nature.
You've already told us Jesus was only PART man.
Jesus was PART God and PART man since he has a human nature and a divine nature.​

Anyone who is only PART man is simply NOT human, he is only PART human, and since Adam was FULLY human, a PART human cannot possibly be the 2nd Adam.

Yes, we have a Jesus who is not man or God.

Sure, if he's only part man and part God, then yes, he is neither man nor God!

There is NO REDEMPTION for man if Jesus is NOT fully man. The Romans may as well have nailed a sheep or a goat to the cross.

And there is NO MEDIATOR between God and man if Jesus is not FULLY both. You do not send a dog to judge a dispute between a cat and a mouse.

You have a contradictory Jesus @Trailblazer, and this is only possible if we have a contradictory God.


It takes two to create offspring. Jesus was begotten by Mary and the Holy Spirit of God.

But you just told us that God is Spirit and a spirit doesn't have offspring:

God is a spirit is in scripture. A spirit does not have offspring. Only biological entities reproduce and have offspring.

From my perspective, Bahai not only have a contradictory Jesus, but a contradictory God. He has offspring because it takes two to create offspring, because God is Spirit that does not have offspring, because only biological entities can have offspring.

Very confusing.

The nature and status of Jesus and God can change dramatically in the Bahai faith. I can't help but see it as contradictory and at odds with itself.

As one Christian apologist stated:

The fact that the various alleged manifestations of God represented God in contradictory ways implies either that manifestations of God can contradict one another or that God's own nature is contradictory. If manifestations are allowed to contradict one another, then there is no way to separate false manifestations from true ones or to discover if any of them really speak for the true and living God…. If, on the other hand, God's own nature is said to be contradictory, that is, that God is both one God and many gods, that God is both able and not able to have a son, personal and impersonal, etc., then the Bahaʼi concept of God is reduced to meaninglessness. (Francis Beckwith)​
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
That is not in the New Testament, so how can it be from Jesus?

I do not believe that Isaiah 9:6 is about Jesus.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword.

Matthew 10:34-39 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Jesus did not have the government upon His shoulder.
Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's. (Matthew 22:21)

Jesus was the Son of God, not the everlasting Father.
I have adjusted my comments, to be more in line with Jesus words and the Apostles in the New Testament. it is a work in progress for me, I will continue to work on it.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
It was 'assumed' by Christians that Jesus is the way, and the truth, and the life for all of eternity, but Jesus did not say that.
Of course he said that. As @cataway correctly pointed out:

John 14:6 New International Version 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

It's a blanket statement. He didn't say "From this day forward, I am the truth...."



Give it up for lost. Jesus is not the Only Way to God. There have been many other Ways to God all throughout history.

Of course he's the only way to God, because he IS God.

Jesus is our creator, and he can say he is the truth, the way and the life because only God is the truth, the way and the life, and Jesus is God. That's all he's saying here.

Before Jesus, Moses was a Way to God for the Jews.

Moses lived for a certain number of years, and never claimed to be God. He was made "as" or "like" a god to Pharoah, but never was God to Pharoah.

Pharoah had the same God that Moses had. One knew his God, the other thought he was one.
Religions such as Hinduism existed long before Christianity and had Krishna as a Way to God. Muslims have Muhammad as a Way and Baha'is have Baha'u'llah as a Way.

God will judge people based on the information they had available, not on information that was unavailable. Jesus will still be their Judge.

The arrogance of Christianity believing Jesus is the Only Way is appalling and I am not in the mood to listen to it today. It sickens me to death.

I can only imagine the reaction of the scribes and Pharisees when they heard this! It would only confirm what they suspected, that Jesus was making himself out to be God. Unfortunately, they no more believed Jesus back then than Bahai's believe Christians now.

Our salvation has always been through the one true God, and not men such as Moses or the Baha'u'llah. It would not be through some guy named Jesus either were Jesus not the Son of God. Moses could never have saved Israel on his own, and neither could any of the prophets.

Moses, even when he was "as" or "like" a god to Pharoah, never claimed he was the way, truth and the life. Of all the prophets, only Jesus could make this claim. In fact, Jesus stated that the Father glorified him (John 8:54). That , in itself, is a most remarkable statement.

Jesus was not a stupid man. He knew there were plenty of people before him before he came as the Son of Man. In fact, he was queried on this before he answered "Before Abraham was born, I AM".

So Jesus confirmed that there was no way to the Father except through him. And yes, that seemed arrogant enough to make certain Jews sick, to the point of wanting him dead, unless they knew Jesus is God, which is all that Jesus was saying at John 14:6.

Many claim that this was a simple misunderstanding and that Jesus never claimed to be God. However, Jesus does not rebuff the Pharisees because they misunderstood him (and they had plenty of misunderstandings). He rebuffs because they did not believe. So when you say Jesus cannot be the only way I believe you miss the forest for the trees, unless you believe there is some other way than God.

I respect your beliefs @Trailblazer, but I don't see how Christians can accept Baha'u'llah as prophet.

Once Christ died on the cross there was no need for another Savior. His life was sufficient to redeem the sins of all men, for all time, for all who believe in him. As for new age prophets, the Christian canon closed with John, the last of the disciples.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
In other words: what do we do with Jesus' God
...WHO IS NOT any of a Trinity?
Like @jimb, I'm not sure of your question.

What do you mean by "Who is not any of a Trinity?"

All different ways of asking ... and you're going all beating around the bush.
Again, I think your questions have been answered, but I haven't forgotten you have not answered mine.

Do you believe Jesus had a dual nature or no? If not, then what happened to Michael the Archangel when Jesus was born? Did he continue or cease to exist?

. That is a very important question about Jesus' teachings:

What God does Jesus teach about?
There is only one true God in scripture.


Could we replace the God of Jesus with the Trinity without ceasing to be true followers of Jesus' teachings?

How can anyone replace God?


Can we still be "brothers" of Jesus if we stop having the same God and Father that he speaks of in John 20:17?

Still not sure what you mean, but let's take a look at John 20:17. Fair enough?

Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended. to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.​

The first thing I notice about this verse is the manner of Jesus' speech. Did you notice?

...I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.​

Now, if Jesus is just who you say he is, a man and no more, then there is no need for Jesus to separate the Father from the rest of us, nor separate God from the rest of us.

Yet he takes his time to do just that.

It's important to notice not only WHAT Jesus say but HOW he says it. If Jesus were only as you say he is, it would be much easier for him to say OUR Father and OUR God.

But Jesus never says OUR Father does he? He says MY Father and YOUR Father, and ditto for God: Your God and MY God. Search your scriptures. Ask @walt. We can wait.

In fact, the only time Jesus says "OUR" Father is in the model prayer, and the only reason he says "OUR" Father is because he's telling US how to pray, and not how WE should pray.

WE would include Jesus, YOU leaves Jesus out of it:

This, then, is how you should pray: “ 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,..." (Matthew 6:9-13)​

So WHY is Jesus careful to speak this way?

The reason for this is simple.

Jesus understands his dual nature. As the Son of Man he prays. As the Son of God, he prays to no one. Why? Because the Son of God is God, and there is no one God prays to. The Son of Man is man, and must pray.

If Jesus had stated he was going to ascend to OUR God, that would have included his nature as the Son of God, and God cannot have a God.

Bible scholar Paul Weathers puts this more succinctly:

Since Christ came as a man, and since one of the proper duties of man is to worship, pray to, and adore God, it was perfectly proper for Jesus to call the Father "my God" and address him in prayer. Positionally speaking as a man, as a Jew, and as our high priest ("made like his brothers in every way" Heb 2:17), Jesus could address the Father as "God". However, Jesus did not relate to the Father in this way until he "emptied himself" and became man, as it says in Phil 2:6-8.

So yes, it is important to read about Jesus' teachings, but you're not going to get far by simply proof-texting. Jesus is God and your questions have been answered.

Hopefully you will take some time to answer mine concerning Michael the Archangel.

Bonus for anyone here who believes "Jesus is just a man":

Can you explain how Jesus was tempted to turn stones into bread, given men can do no such thing and the Father cannot be tempted into doing it for him? I've answered a lot of questions here, and am patiently awaiting a few of mine.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You've already told us Jesus was only PART man.
Jesus was PART God and PART man since he has a human nature and a divine nature.​

Anyone who is only PART man is simply NOT human, he is only PART human, and since Adam was FULLY human, a PART human cannot possibly be the 2nd Adam.
Forget what I said above since I explained it incorrectly.

Jesus was a man who had a human nature and a divine nature.
So Jesus was fully man, but Jesus was not fully God or God in any other way.
Sure, if he's only part man and part God, then yes, he is neither man nor God!
Forget what I said before since I explained it incorrectly.

Jesus was a man.
We have a Jesus who is not an ordinary man or God.

Baha'is believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God who had a human nature and a divine nature so Jesus was not an ordinary man.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

There is NO REDEMPTION for man if Jesus is NOT fully man. The Romans may as well have nailed a sheep or a goat to the cross.
Jesus was fully man.
And there is NO MEDIATOR between God and man if Jesus is not FULLY both.
Jesus could not be a Mediator between God and man if Jesus was God because a Mediator mediates between two dissimilar entities.

As a Manifestation of God who had a human nature and a divine nature Jesus was perfectly suited to mediate between man and God.
But you just told us that God is Spirit and a spirit doesn't have offspring:
I said: It takes two to create offspring.
That is true in all cases except in the case of Jesus.
Usually it takes two, but that was not the case with Jesus because Jesus had no father, only a mother.

Jesus was conceived of Mary and the Holy Spirit of God.
That does not make God the father of Jesus since the Holy Spirit is not God, it is the Bounty of God.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

From my perspective, Bahai not only have a contradictory Jesus, but a contradictory God. He has offspring because it takes two to create offspring, because God is Spirit that does not have offspring, because only biological entities can have offspring.
Simply put, God cannot have offspring because God is not a biological entity.
Jesus was conceived of Mary and the Holy Spirit of God.

I am really running late, so for now I will post what Baha'is believe about the Virgin Birth.

1637. Christ, Virgin Birth of

"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."
(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

1639. Bahá’í Teachings in Agreement with Doctrines of Catholic Church Concerning the Virgin Birth

"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus: On this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the 'Kitáb-i-Íqán' (Book of Certitude) p. 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the 'Some Answered Questions', Chap. XII, p. 73, explicitly states that 'Christ found existence through the Spirit of God' which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."
(From a letter dated October 14, 1945 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

 
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