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Jesus is not God

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's sad that you don't understand the concept of the Trinity: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all 3 aspects of the one God.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all 3 'aspects' of the one God but only the Father is God.

I believe in a Trinity, but I do not believe that the three persons were 'part of God' as the Trinitarians believe.

In brief, below is what I believe.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the sense that they are ‘one in Purpose.’
They work together, but they are separate, not ‘part of God.’ God cannot be divided into parts.

God is exalted above anything that can ever be perceived so God remains in His own high place, on His Throne.
God never descends to earth.

God sent Jesus from heaven and Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit from the womb of Mary into a human body. Later, after Jesus reached a certain age, God sent the Holy Spirit to Him and it descended upon Him like a dove when Jesus was baptized. After Jesus received the Holy Spirit from God the Father, Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to believers and it dwelt in believers.

The Holy Spirit does not enter the body, but rather it has a direct connection to the body through the soul, which is associated with the mind. That is what the indwelling Holy Spirit means to me.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If someone calls another his God, what does that mean? Remember, Jesus said he was going to the Father, and the Father is GREATER than he is. John 14:28 - "Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am."
Is there something about "when Jesus was on Earth, He was a human" that you don't understand? Jesus' status as a human was temporary, so of course He said (while human) that the Father was greater then He was. Before He was born and after He returned to heaven, He was fully God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Is there something about "when Jesus was on Earth, He was a human" that you don't understand? Jesus' status as a human was temporary, so of course He said (while human) that the Father was greater then He was. Before He was born and after He returned to heaven, He was fully God.
Do you have any scriptures that support that belief?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yep. So show me in the Quran verses that answers my question please.
Are you referring to this?

None of the scriptures say Jesus is not the Christ, or that there is a different christ inside just a plain man called Jesus who dies and then the so called "the christ, ha machiakh, or Al Masih" which is a separate being will return and he or it is not Jesus.

That was not a question. I am not familiar with the Qur'an so I cannot address your statement above.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Are you referring to this?

None of the scriptures say Jesus is not the Christ, or that there is a different christ inside just a plain man called Jesus who dies and then the so called "the christ, ha machiakh, or Al Masih" which is a separate being will return and he or it is not Jesus.

That was not a question. I am not familiar with the Qur'an so I cannot address your statement above.
I will address your Bible verses after you give me Qur'anic references.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I will address your Bible verses after you give me Qur'anic references.
Sorry, I won't be giving you any Qur'anic references because I would not know what to look for or where to look.

Apparently you are trying to make a point.
Since the Qur'an is your holy book, why don't you cite those verses?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The Qur'an is not MY holy book. It is YOUR holy book.
Oh I thought you said it's God's word. So it's not your holy book? But the Bible is?

So make it clear. the Bible is "Your holy book which you quote from" but the Qur'an is not? Please do clear that.

I am not trying to prove anything so I have no burden of proof.
Burden of proof does not mean there has to be something you are trying to prove. When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. Turning that around to the interlocutor is called a "burden of proof fallacy".

Hope you understand.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Oh I thought you said it's God's word. So it's not your holy book? But the Bible is?

So make it clear. the Bible is "Your holy book which you quote from" but the Qur'an is not? Please do clear that.
To be clear, the Bible is not my holy book, but I am familiar enough with the Bible to quote from it.
I am not familiar with the Qur'an so I cannot quote from it.
Burden of proof does not mean there has to be something you are trying to prove. When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. Turning that around to the interlocutor is called a "burden of proof fallacy".

Hope you understand.
I did not make a claim. All I did was post the Bible verses that say what Jesus said, that He would be no more in the world.
You can draw any conclusions you want to from that.

If you are claiming that Jesus is coming back to this world the burden of proof is on you to prove that.
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I agree, the meaning doesn’t change.
You say I agree, but your comments show that you still disagree.
Please Jesus advice, Jesus words, Jesus explanations, Jesus twist? Thanks. :twohearts: How is your advice beneficial, you are providing reasoning to not take Jesus words as they are recorded in the Bible. Can you explain your beliefs with Jesus words alone and the words of the Apostles in agreement and not one word extra? This paragraph is my words, My words are of zero value! Who in their right mind would listen to only a few of Jesus words? On this page is Jesus words alone, the apostles, angels, a voice from heaven, plus no extra words from me to persuade anybody!

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” -John 20:17 NIV

I and the Father are one.” -John 10:30

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? -John 14:9

And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, -John 5:37

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me. -John 17:23 English Revised Version

“That they all shall be one, just as you, my Father, are in me, and I am in you, so that they also shall be one in us. “ -John 17:21 Aramaic Bible in Plain English

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. -John 14:1

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. -Mark 10:18 NIV

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. -Matthew 16:15-17

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, -Luke 1:32

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Berean Standard Bible

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” -Matthew 3:17 NIV

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. -John 5:30

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. -John 17:3-5

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. -Matthew 28:18

After Jesus is raised from the dead, God is still his Father. John 20:17
In heaven Jesus is at God's right hand. Mark 16:19, Romans 8:34, 1 Peter 3:22, Acts 7:55-56

After Jesus ascended to heaven, what is recorded in the Bible about Jesus?
Col 1:3; Eph 1:17; 1 Cor 11:3; Heb 9:24; 1 Tim 2:5; 1 Cor 8:6; Rev 1:1


Click Spoiler to see 20 scriptures, I did extra research... [ Some scriptures are repeated in a different category ].

These [ 20 ] Scriptures Have One Single Meaning! [ When we look at 100 different Bible translations ] wording may differ a little.

[ 1 ]
Phil 2:11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
73 Bibles: glory of God the Father.
10 Bibles: praise of God the Father.
83 Bibles in total express one single meaning. [ Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory or praise of God the Father. ]
0...Bibles in total express different meaning.
[ 2 ]
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. KJV
83 one god
81 the father
81 one lord
89 Jesus Christ
0 something else.
[ 3 ]
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
2 say only very God
68 say only true God
0 say something else
[ 4 ]
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
94 say: one God and one mediator
90 say Jesus is mediator
0 say something else
[ 5 ]
Ephesians 4:5-6 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
83 say one God and one lord Jesus
0 say something else
Ephesians 4:5
82 say one lord
0 something else
[ 6 ]
John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
75 My God
75 My Father
0 something else
[ 7 ]
Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
83 your God or thy God
0 something else
[ 8 ]
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
83 head of Christ is God
0 something else
[ 9 ]
John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
61 also
42 and in me
0 other way
[ 10 ]
John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
4 should believe...
83 ye might or ye may believe Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God
0 something else
[ 11 ]
Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
87 the Christ the son of the Living God
0 others
[ 12 ]
2 John 1:3 Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.
82 God the Father
47 Lord Jesus
42 the Lord Jesus
0 others
[ 13 ]
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. KJV
79 who is at the right hand of God.
0 others
[ 14 ]
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves to take place in quickness. And He signified it through having sent His angel to His servant, John, -Rev 1:1 Berean Literal Bible
[ 15 ]
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood, who has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and power forever and ever! Amen. -Rev 1:5-6 Berean Standard Bible
[ 16 ]
And I saw, and behold, a Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred forty-four thousand, having the Name of His Father written on their foreheads; -Rev 14:1 Literal Standard Version
[ 17 ]
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. -Rev 3:21 NIV
[ 18 ]
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” -Rev 7:10 NIV
[ 19 ]
And every creature which is in Heaven and in Earth, under The Earth, in the Sea and all that is in them, I also heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and dominion to him sitting upon the throne and to the Lamb for the eternity of eternities.” -Rev 5:13 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
[ 20 ]
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, -2 Cor 1:3 NIV

Eph 1:2
Eph 1:3
1 Pet 1:3
Eph 1:17
2 Cor 11:30
Rom 15:6
Acts 5:30
Acts 3:13 :crossmark: This verse is translated in four different ways.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus...
37 Bibles: hath glorified his servant Jesus
1 Bible: glorified the servant of himself Jesus,
42 Bibles: has glorified his Son Jesus.
6 Bibles: has honoured his child Jesus;
1 Bible: has glorified his young-servant Jesus;
87 Bibles in total - Four different meanings are expressed in these 87 Translations. With these translations can we know for sure which wording is a Original Teaching or Belief?
.
.
John 1:1 :crossmark: This verse is translated in four different ways.
[ the Word was with God ]
[ the Word was with the God ]
[ Word was Divine ]
[ Word was a god }
[ Word was like God ]
[ Word was God-like ]


.


Jesus said, I am “the bread of life,” “the light of the world,” “the gate,” “the good shepherd,” “the resurrection and the life,” “the way and the truth and the life,” and “the true vine” (John 6:48; 8:12; 10:9,11; 11:25; 14:6; 15:1).

For I did not speak from Myself, but the Father Himself, having sent Me, gave Me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak. -John 12:49 Berean literal Bible

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. -John 5:19 NIV

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. -John 6:38 New King James Bible

“My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work,” Jesus told them. -John 4:34 Christian Standard Bible

I cannot of myself do any thing. As I hear, so I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me. -John 5:30 Douay-Rheims Bible

Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. -John 7:16 NIV

Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. -Matthew 4:4 NIV

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Matt 26:42 King James Bible

I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. -John 17:4 New King James Bible

Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. -Matt 28:18 Holman Christian Standard Bible

So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what My Father has taught Me. -John 8:28 Majority Standard Bible
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Is there something about "when Jesus was on Earth, He was a human" that you don't understand? Jesus' status as a human was temporary, so of course He said (while human) that the Father was greater then He was. Before He was born and after He returned to heaven, He was fully God.
Here's what I wonder about in reference to your answer. Did Jesus say the Father is greater than he is? I think you know the answer. Did he ever say that he, the Father, and the holy spirit were 3 persons making up one God each God person equal to the other? I think you know the answer to that also, jimb.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's sad that you don't understand the concept of the Trinity: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all 3 aspects of the one God.
They're supposed to be equal to each other also. How do you feel about that? All three persons, each said to be God and each said to be equal to the other, aren't they?
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I agree, the meaning doesn’t change. Again, the Son was in human form when He said, My God. So of course He would and could address His Father as My God. As well, while on earth as a human man, Jesus was the example of how we humans should understand our relationship to God.
This does not negate the fact that Jesus is the Eternal Son. So I along with Thomas realized that Jesus is God…

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” John 20:28


And agree with Paul, it was the Son is God/Jesus who interacted with Moses and the Hebrews in the OT…

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
Diaglott(i) in whom the God of the age this blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, -2 Cor 4:4

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” -John 20:28

whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who have their minds on earthly things. Philippians 3:19

When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” -Acts 14:11

Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. -Exodus 7:1 New American Standard Bible

A psalm of Asaph. God has taken His place in the divine assembly; He judges among the gods:” -Psalm 82:1

These are all examples of God or god's in the Bible. Jesus Praying to his Father says: Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. -John 17:3
  • There is one true God. John 17:3
  • There is one Most High. Psalms 83:18
  • Moses was sent by God raised up by God and given power by God. Exodus 7:1, chapters 3 through 6, 7:1-25, Romans 9:15-17
  • Read all Jesus words for yourself, you decide is Jesus explaining he is The Almighty? John 12:49-50, John 5:19, John 6:38, John 4:34, John 5:30, John 7:16, Matthew 26:42, John 17:4, Matthew 28:18, John 8:28
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Is there something about "when Jesus was on Earth, He was a human" that you don't understand? Jesus' status as a human was temporary, so of course He said (while human) that the Father was greater then He was. Before He was born and after He returned to heaven, He was fully God.
So was his heavenly Father human? I don't think so. (I'll help you out here a little...) Was the holy spirit ever human and God who died in the flesh or something like that? Again, I don't think so. Maybe you do, I don't know.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's sad that you don't understand the concept of the Trinity: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all 3 aspects of the one God.
Oh, now it's 3 aspects of the one God. Not three persons, each person equal to the others, combining to be one God? So the combination of 3 godpersons is not one person, right? Or are all three persons in each person of the Trinity? No matter how you look at it, Jesus said he was one with the Father. Nothing there about being one with the Father and the holy spirit person, all equal to the others.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
I never said that Jesus is not the Christ or that there is a different christ inside just a plain man called Jesus who dies and then the so called "the christ, ha machiakh, or Al Masih" which is a separate being will return. That is not a Baha'i belief.

I only ever said that Jesus us not going to return, and that is based upon the words of Jesus in the Bible.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
are you referring to Jesus as a man returning ?
 
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