Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe some of what is in the Bible but not all of it, and what I do believe I interpret differently than Christians.
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Jesus is not God
- Thread starter andy
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Do you think the angel's promise to Daniel has nothing to do with his future resurrection on earth?
PD: Why are you flooding the topic with issues that have nothing to do with the thread ... which is "living forever in a wonderful new earth where peace and happiness will be ... wonderful"?
So, what do you "think" the angel meant when he said this to Daniel?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Let me put it this way--I don't know what Bahaullah says about the future, but from what I see and understand, it makes sense to me that God is concerned about the misery on this earth and will make all things better.
cataway
Well-Known Member
feel good things like ..................going to heaven ?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That angel's promise to Daniel has absolutely nothing to do with his future resurrection on earth.
I already explained what those verses were about.
Daniel Chapter 12
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Daniel12:13 says "at the end of the days.”
This chapter is about what will happen at the end of the days, which is the end of the age, when Christ returns.
It was not ME who started talking about this topic. #1,465
There will be a wonderful new earth, but nobody is going to live forever on a wonderful new earth.
When people die they go to a spiritual worlds, which will be more wonderful than anything on earth.
“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God is concerned about the misery on this earth but it is not God who will make all things better.
God has entrusted that job to humans but we are told to pray for assistance.
“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.
Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is why the Bible promises. The Father's house is in heaven, not on earth.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I already explained what those verses were about.
Daniel Chapter 12
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Daniel12:13 says "at the end of the days.”
This chapter is about what will happen at the end of the days, which is the end of the age, when Christ returns.
I didn't ask you about the whole chapter ... I don't think that is necessary at all to undertsand what the angel told Daniel in Dan. 12:13. That was a personal hope to Daniel.
Actually, if I am not wrong, Bahais believe that angels are dead humans, which is totally different of what the Bible teaches (Job 38:4,7).
... as your "angels"?
However, the Bible says that the earth was created to be inhabited in Isaiah 45:18. It also says that God's purpose is never left unfulfilled (Isaiah 55:8-11).
Actually, there are dozens of biblical texts giving hope to many people about living on earth after their resurrection (John 11:23,24). No worshiper of Jehovah God who died before Jesus' death knew about a kingdom on heaven, and no even John the Baptist will be part of it (Matt. 11:11).
I understand that you don't believe in Jesus' words or in some things in the Bible ... but what makes you think Baha Ullah's teachings are more reliable than what it says?
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walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Berean Literal Bible
Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, having been fully equipped toward every good work. -2 Timothy 3:16-17
NSB(i) Matthew 6:10 »‘Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:33) (Daniel 2:44) (Revelation 11:15) (Psalm 37:10,29) (Acts 24:15)
New International Version
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” -Revelation 11:15
Berean Standard Bible
In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever,. -Daniel 2:44
King James Bible
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. -Acts 24:15
[ The New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. ]
NSB(i) I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. There was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 Then I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying: »Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men. He will dwell with them and they will be his people! God will be with them, and be their God. 4 »God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death. There will be no more sorrow nor crying. There will be no more pain! The former things have passed away.« -Revelation 21:1-4
For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart. -Isaiah 65:17 NWT
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making will remain standing before me,” declares Jehovah, “so your offspring and your name will remain.” -Isaiah 66:22 NWT
But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell. -2 Peter 3:13 NWT
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And the righteous ones inherit the Earth and dwell upon it for eternity. -Psalm 37:29
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. -Matthew 5:5 NIV
A generation is going, and a generation is coming, But the earth remains forever. -- Ecclesiastes 1:4
He has established the earth on its foundations; It will not be moved from its place forever and ever. --Psalms 104:5
He is bringing an end to wars throughout the earth. —Psalm 46:9.
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. 4 And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. -Isaiah 2:1-4 American Standard Version
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because the wicked are destroyed and those who hope in LORD JEHOVAH inherit the Earth. 10 In a little time you seek the wicked and he is not, and you gaze into his place and he is not found. 11 And the poor inherit the Earth and enjoy abundant peace. -Psalm 37:9-11
These words are written down in the Bible, Don't you feel that makes them valuable and trustworthy? [ Scripture only no interpretation ]
[ Read surrounding text, so nothing is taken out of context ]
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is way past my bedtime so I cannot answer any long posts tonight!
I will try to respond to those verses tomorrow.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I'll catch you tomorrow. It is way past my bedtime!
*Sigh*
Acts 24:15….” ….there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”
I can understand why you would think that all the resurrected “righteous” would go to Heaven, but why do you think the “unrighteous” deserve to go there?
Do you realize there are two resurrections mentioned in the Bible?
The first is for those who “belong to Christ”; the other is for the vast majority of mankind, many of which never heard of Christ. These are some of the unrighteous ones, who will be resurrected and given an opportunity to learn about Jehovah & Jesus.
And hopefully become part of “the meek [who] will inherit the earth.”
Those who “belong to Christ” (2 Corinthians 1:21,22; 15:23), are referred to as a “little flock”, whom Jesus mentioned in Luke 12:32; they receive “the kingdom”, ruling as kings with Jesus.
At 1 Corinthians 4:8, Paul indicated what those First-Century Christians would become: kings.
These are the ones mentioned at Revelation 5:9,10…And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
These ones are also referred to in
Revelation 20…
“And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.”
And kings have subjects… which are the meek on the earth.
Subjects always outnumber their rulers, don’t they?
There are always a few, who rule over the many. Not everyone can be a king!
After that 1,000 years, all who are left living on Earth - the meek - will be the “mankind” whom “the tent of God is with..”
Revelation 21:3,4…” and I heard a loud voice from the **throne** say, “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and He will reside with them, and they will be His peoples. And God Himself will be with them. And He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
Reasoning on this, if death will be no more, that means mankind living then (the meek) will have everlasting life.
At that time, Jesus’ words @ Matthew 6:9,10… “Thy Will be done on Earth”….. will have reached fulfillment.
There’s a lot more to discuss!
Have a good day
Good point.
What’s supposed to be better than that, huh?
That’s exactly how that belief of ‘going to heaven’ got so engrained. (Although the Bible says little about it.)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That verse has many different translations. For example:
KJV But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
NKJV “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”
NLV But go your way until the end. Then you will have rest, and will rise again to take your place at the end of time.”
NLT “As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days, you will rise again to receive the inheritance set aside for you.”
NRSVA But you, go your way, and rest; you shall rise for your reward at the end of the days.
I think that verse means that at the end of days, which is when Christ returns, Daniel will receive his reward. The verse does not say how that will happen or what the reward will be.
I am not seeing anything in the verses you cited that say what the Bible teaches about angels. What do you think angels are?
Humans who have died and gone to the spiritual world (heaven) can be angels, but there can also be angels living on earth.
“And now, concerning His words: “And He shall send His angels….” By “angels” is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim. That holy man, Ṣádiq, 37 in his eulogy of the Cherubim, saith: “There stand a company of our fellow-Shí’ihs behind the Throne.” Divers and manifold are the interpretations of the words “behind the Throne.” In one sense, they indicate that no true Shí’ihs exist. Even as he hath said in another passage: “A true believer is likened unto the philosopher’s stone.” Addressing subsequently his listener, he saith: “Hast thou ever seen the philosopher’s stone?” Reflect, how this symbolic language, more eloquent than any speech, however direct, testifieth to the non-existence of a true believer. Such is the testimony of Ṣádiq. And now consider, how unfair and numerous are those who, although they themselves have failed to inhale the fragrance of belief, have condemned as infidels those by whose word belief itself is recognized and established.
And now, inasmuch as these holy beings have sanctified themselves from every human limitation, have become endowed with the attributes of the spiritual, and have been adorned with the noble traits of the blessed, they therefore have been designated as “angels.” Such is the meaning of these verses, every word of which hath been expounded by the aid of the most lucid texts, the most convincing arguments, and the best established evidences.”
(The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 78-80)
When people die they go to the spiritual world (heaven), some of those people will be angels, if while on earth they fit the description of angels according to the passage above.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
The earth has been inhabited and it is inhabited now.
Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
God's purpose is never left unfulfilled, and the earth is inhabited, but God never promised that dead people would rise from their graves and inhabit the earth.
I do not see how those verses that you cited say that people will live on earth after they die physically and are resurrected.
But first, you should know that I do not believe that resurrection means people rising from their graves.
The following is what I believe about resurrection and entrance into eternal life. When our body dies, our spirit (soul) passes from one world into another. After that our spirit continues to live forever. Please note that on the context of the afterlife the words spirit and soul have the same meaning.
The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life
421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life.
(Heaven and Hell, p. 351)
What the Christian above wrote above is congruent with the Bible. The physical body returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God, who resides in the spiritual world.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements and the man continues to live forever.
The Writings of Baha'u'llah are more reliable than the Bible because He penned them in His own hand, so we know He wrote them.
The words in the Bible are not actually Jesus' words, they are who others people claimed that Jesus said. The gospels were written decades after Jesus walked the earth. It is logically impossible for anyone to have known what Jesus said all those decades later.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Proverbs 2
21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
Yes, that will happen. The perfect living people will remain living on earth and there will be no more wicked people or transgressors.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, I find them valuable and trustworthy, although that can have many different interpretations, so they can mean various things.