Jesus is not God

[walt]

Yes, I find them valuable and trustworthy, although that can have many different interpretations, so they can mean various things.

I would say you are correct, so much so the whole world interprets things their own individual ways, we have 10,000 different ways in the whole world!

 

[walt]

Yes, I find them valuable and trustworthy, although that can have many different interpretations, so they can mean various things.

So we have 10,000 different interpretations! Do you feel there is a few keys In the Bible to help us understand?

 

[Trailblazer]

*Sigh*

Acts 24:15….” ….there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”

I can understand why you would think that all the resurrected “righteous” would go to Heaven, but why do you think the “unrighteous” deserve to go there?

I do not believe that resurrection means that when people die they will rise from their graves and be alive again on earth.

There is going to be a resurrection (the soul passing from this world to the next world when the body dies) of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
The righteous will go to heaven but the unrighteous will not go to heaven. They will go away into everlasting punishment.

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I am sure I have told you this before, but it bears repeating.

The following is what I believe about resurrection and entrance into eternal life. When our body dies, our spirit (soul) passes from one world into another. After that our spirit continues to live forever. Please note that on the context of the afterlife the words spirit and soul have the same meaning.

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life.
(Heaven and Hell, p. 351)
https://swedenborg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/swedenborg_foundation_heaven_and_hell.pdf

What the Christian above wrote above is congruent with the Bible. The physical body returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God, who resides in the spiritual world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements and the man continues to live forever.

Reasoning on this, if death will be no more, that means mankind living then (the meek) will have everlasting life.

Rev. 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

That verse above does not say that people will be raised from the dead and have everlasting life on earth.
Spiritual death will be no more, but physical death will always exist, because God created humans with mortal bodies.

If physical death was no more, how could any more people be born? How could the earth sustain the overpopulation, let alone all the people that you believe will be raised from their graves to live forever on earth? Do you even bother to think or do you just believe what the JW church tells you?

 

[jimb]

The OP says "Jesus is not God". That is an obviously wrong statement! Jesus was God, became human for a short time to fulfill a specific task, then retained His status as God.

Anyone who disagrees clearly doesn't know what s/he is talking about. Jesus is God.

 

[Trailblazer]

So we have 10,000 different interpretations! Do you feel there is a few keys In the Bible to help us understand?

I believe that the key to understanding what the Bible means is in the Baha'i Writings.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 175-177

Baha’u’llah was referring to the Bible as the Word of God. What Baha’u’llah was saying in that passage is that the biblical scriptures can have many different, but the Representative of God and His appointed interpreters are the only ones who have the authority to interpret the scriptures, so they are the final authorities on the meaning so whatever meaning they assign should not be questioned.

I believe that the Representative of God is the Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah, also referred to as a Manifestation of God.
Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi were Baha'u'llah's appointed interpreters.

 

[Trailblazer]

The OP says "Jesus is not God". That is an obviously wrong statement! Jesus was God, became human for a short time to fulfill a specific task, then retained His status as God.

Anyone who disagrees clearly doesn't know what s/he is talking about. Jesus is God.

The OP says "Jesus is not God". That is an obviously true statement! Jesus is not God, and never was God at any time.

Anyone who disagrees clearly doesn't know what s/he is talking about. Jesus is not God.

 

[walt]

I believe that the key to understanding what the Bible means is in the Baha'i Writings.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 175-177

Baha’u’llah was referring to the Bible as the Word of God. What Baha’u’llah was saying in that passage is that the biblical scriptures can have many different, but the Representative of God and His appointed interpreters are the only ones who have the authority to interpret the scriptures, so they are the final authorities on the meaning so whatever meaning they assign should not be questioned.

I believe that the Representative of God is the Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah, also referred to as a Manifestation of God.
Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi were Baha'u'llah's appointed interpreters.

The earliest keys are valuable don't you think?

I understand your belief clearly, but the Bible warns me of other teachings even from an angel, so in the first place..

1. Is there keys to be found in the oldest Holy Scriptures, that help us determine truth?
2. Will these keys help us determine If there is truth in other Holy Scriptures that come later?

 

[Eli G]

So we have 10,000 different interpretations! Do you feel there is a few keys In the Bible to help us understand?

I am not so sure that a Bahai understands well that when a text is of divine origin it cannot have interpretations that contradict each other and all be true.

Perhaps Baha'Ullah's writings also have thousands of different interpretations, and they even consider them acceptable even if they contradict each other.

Of course, we JWs, are particularly careful about the interpretations we give to inspired biblical texts. The Bible itself says:

2 Pet. 1:19 Consequently we have the prophetic word [made] more sure; and YOU are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in YOUR hearts. 20 For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

This inspired rule on how sacred writings should not be treated is very specific and serious. It does not admit of any different interpretations than those originally intended.

 

[walt]

I am not so sure that a Bahai understands well that when a text is of divine origin it cannot have interpretations that contradict each other and all be true.

Perhaps Baha'Ullah's writings also have thousands of different interpretations, and they even consider them acceptable even if they contradict each other.

Of course, we JWs, are particularly careful about the interpretations we give to inspired biblical texts. The Bible itself says:

2 Pet. 1:19 Consequently we have the prophetic word [made] more sure; and YOU are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in YOUR hearts. 20 For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

This inspired rule on how sacred writings should not be treated is very specific and serious. It does not admit of any different interpretations than those originally intended.

I agree 100% My Brother.
I believe the Bible has so many inspired words, and the key to understanding them is using all of them! 100% And the keys to not understanding, is for a person to use only favorite scriptures!

• By using 100% of the words in the Holy Scriptures, our understanding Is so much more complete!
• Use all Jesus words to determine truth, not just a few!
• If we look at only part of the scriptures, we get only part of the truth, don't you think?
• If we look at all the scriptures we can find, don't we get much more understanding?

And read the surrounding context to get more understanding.

 

[cataway]

I do not believe that resurrection means that when people die they will rise from their graves and be alive again on earth.

you seam to have a problem with and when the resurrection happens . no one has been resurrected for close to 2000 years . Jesus did it and so did the apostles of that time . we know that the resurrection of the dead is an event that happens in the future . your words seam to make it a here and now thing.

 

[Betho_br]

If the word "Deus" from the OP represents "The Almighty God," then it is true that the Christian Bible does not explicitly and impartially express, in a complete and literal manner, that JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD. There is no verse that directly states this. "Theos" is related to "elohim," and Moses was called an elohim (Exodus 21:6). In summary, the Christian Bible clearly states that Jesus was an elohim SIMILAR to Moses, a point even echoed in the Quran. However, here in the forum, I have encountered Jews, or those who claim to be Jews, who deny that the word elohim is used for Moses, for the sons of kings, for priests. There's even a very rich and detailed study explaining its usage right here in the RF. All Abrahamic religions could benefit from a common link, with a Jesus more qualified in a rational, critical, and historical-grammatical sense, while leaving differing aspects as matters of faith practice, without imposing on others.

 

[walt]

If the word "Deus" from the OP represents "The Almighty God," then it is true that the Christian Bible does not explicitly and impartially express, in a complete and literal manner, that JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD. There is no verse that directly states this. "Theos" is related to "elohim," and Moses was called an elohim (Exodus 21:6). In summary, the Christian Bible clearly states that Jesus was an elohim SIMILAR to Moses, a point even echoed in the Quran. However, here in the forum, I have encountered Jews, or those who claim to be Jews, who deny that the word elohim is used for Moses, for the sons of kings, for priests. There's even a very rich and detailed study explaining its usage right here in the RF. All Abrahamic religions could benefit from a common link, with a Jesus more qualified in a rational, critical, and historical-grammatical sense, while leaving differing aspects as matters of faith practice, without imposing on others.

I agree with your words, Moses as well as other scriptures refer to these words "Theos" or "elohim," In these verses:

Exodus 4:16
Exodus 7:1
Psalm 82:1
Psalm 82:6
Zachariah 12:8
Acts 14:11
John 20:28
John 10:33
John 1:1
2 Corinthians 4:4
Philippians 3:19
John 10:34
Acts 28:6
I feel The Bible's use of words is more important to determine understanding, then anybody's opinion. I agree with your research.

 

[Trailblazer]

you seam to have a problem with and when the resurrection happens

No, I do not have a problem with and when the resurrection happens
What I have a problem with is what Christian believe resurrection means.
I said: I do not believe that resurrection means that when people die they will rise from their graves and be alive again on earth.

no one has been resurrected for close to 2000 years . Jesus did it and so did the apostles of that time . we know that the resurrection of the dead is an event that happens in the future . your words seam to make it a here and now thing.

I do not believe that any resurrection of dead bodies ever occurred at any time, nor is it an event that will happen in the future.
I think that Christian belief is completely absurd. The body once dead remains dead and returns to dust and the spirit returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Jimmy]

Can I answer?

When a person learns who the True God is, which is Jesus’ Father (John 17:3; John 4:23), the God of the ancient Israelites and the Jews, whom Jesus himself worshipped (John 20:17), the person begins to appreciate the Bible is Jesus’ Fathers’ Word.
Jesus’ statement @ Luke 10:21 has more meaning, then.

Then, Jesus’ Father — ie., Jehovah God — blesses those who turn to Him in worship. This results in Him giving them His spirit, the fruitage of which “is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, mildness, faith, and self-control.” — Galatians 5:22-23

As a group, these qualities overflow among Jehovah’s worshippers.
Why? Because of striving to live by His principles, found in His Word.

Worshipping only Jehovah (as stated in Exodus 20:2-5), through Christ (John 14:6; Romans 5:10,11);
avoiding behaviors & activities the Bible denounces (1 Cor. 6:9,10); and showing love not only to God (1 John 5:3; Matthew 7:21) but also to spiritual brothers, strangers, and even enemies (John 15:12: Matthew 22:37-39; Matthew 5:44)….. The Bible tells us the “distinction” would be obvious to those looking.— Malachi 3:17,18. See John 13:35, “all will know…”


This difference is observed around the world!

I hope I answered your question… maybe from an angle you weren’t expecting.

Why don’t Jehovahs believe Jesus was God in the flesh?

 

[Jimmy]

But why you feel your holy scriptures are inspired by God? That was the question

Jesus did say that someone would come in the future, the Comforter/Spirit of truth.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

It's too bad that Christians have misunderstood what Jesus said, so they think these verses mean something they do not mean.

The person Jesus refers to is the spirit of truth or the third person of the Trinity. He’s not talking about an actual person like the bahai like to think.

 

[Trailblazer]

The person Jesus refers to is the spirit of truth or the third person of the Trinity. He’s not talking about an actual person like the bahai like to think.

Since you cannot prove that it is not a fact so I would be careful in stating it as if it was a fact.
You are free to believe that if you want to and I will continue to believe what I believe.

 

[Jimmy]

Since you cannot prove that it is not a fact so I would be careful in stating it as if it was a fact.
You are free to believe that if you want to and I will continue to believe what I believe.

I think it’s clear he’s talking about the spirit of truth. Bahai has twisted that for their own gain imo.

 

[Trailblazer]

The earliest keys are valuable don't you think?

I understand your belief clearly, but the Bible warns me of other teachings even from an angel, so in the first place..

I do not believe that warning was ever intended to apply to all of time.
I believe it was only intended to apply to the Christian dispensation, up until God sent another Messenger.

I hope you know that the Old Testament says about adding to it.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

But then the New Testament was an addition to the Old Testament, wasn't it?
So Jesus came with a new Revelation from God and added to what Moses revealed.

1. Is there keys to be found in the oldest Holy Scriptures, that help us determine truth?
2. Will these keys help us determine If there is truth in other Holy Scriptures that come later?

Yes, I believe there are keys to be found in the oldest Holy Scriptures that help us determine truth. They are called prophecies.
Those prophecies were written to help us determine If there is truth in other Holy Scriptures that come later.

 

[walt]

I do not believe that warning was ever intended to apply to all of time.
I believe it was only intended to apply to the Christian dispensation, up until God sent another Messenger.

I hope you know that the Old Testament says about adding to it.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

But then the New Testament was an addition to the Old Testament, wasn't it?
So Jesus came with a new Revelation from God and added to what Moses revealed.

Yes, I believe there are keys to be found in the oldest Holy Scriptures that help us determine truth. They are called prophecies.
Those prophecies were written to help us determine If there is truth in other Holy Scriptures that come later.

400 to 500 prophecies were fulfilled from the Old Testament, to prove the New Testaments writings inspiration.

See this link for hundreds of prophecies fulfilled In Jesus ministry.

How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill? | GotQuestions.org

How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill? What are all of the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?

www.gotquestions.org

Don't you feel this is more than sufficient proof that the New Testament is inspired?
Here are all the prophecies you were asking for?

 

[Trailblazer]

I think it’s clear he’s talking about the spirit of truth. Bahai has twisted that for their own gain imo.

It may not be clear to Christians since they have confirmation bias so they are so sure that the Spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit.
Baha'is know that the Spirit of truth is the title for the man who brought the Holy Spirit.

That can be confirmed by reading the NT verses where it says what the Spirit of truth would do, all of which Baha'u'llah has done.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Please note the word he. He is a reference to a man, not a Holy Spirit that lives inside of Christians. The indwelt Holy Spirit cannot do any of those things.