That's a very convenient interpretation. Who was the first to teach that?
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Jesus is not God
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, Baha'u'llah never said that. All he ever claimed to be was the messenger of God for this age. He acknowledged the messengers of the past and he said more messengers of God would come in the future.
Ironically, it is Christians who say that Jesus and no none else is the one. Jesus never said that He was the only one for all time.
You are correct. Jesus did not glorify Himself, but ironically, Christians glorify Jesus, since they believe that Jesus is God, and I consider that an abomination.
Baha'u'llah did not glorify Himself. He glorified only God.
I have the writings to prove it.
“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228
“Who can ever believe that this Servant of God hath at any time cherished in His heart a desire for any earthly honor or benefit? The Cause associated with His Name is far above the transitory things of this world. Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85
“Know ye that I am afraid of none except God. In none but Him have I placed My trust; to none will I cleave but Him, and wish for naught except the thing He hath wished for Me. This, indeed, is My heart’s desire, did ye but know it. I have offered up My soul and My body as a sacrifice for God, the Lord of all worlds. Whoso hath known God shall know none but Him, and he that feareth God shall be afraid of no one except Him, though the powers of the whole earth rise up and be arrayed against him. I speak naught except at His bidding, and follow not, through the power of God and His might, except His truth. He, verily, shall recompense the truthful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 126
“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 127
“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures. Your evil doings can never harm Us, neither can your good works profit Us. We summon you wholly for the sake of God. To this every man of understanding and insight will testify.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140
“What! Believe ye in your hearts that ye possess the power to extinguish the radiance of the Sun, or to eclipse its splendor? Nay, by My life! Ye will never and can never achieve your purpose, though ye summon to your aid all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth. Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain. Incline your ears to His words, and be not of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him. Say: God is My witness! I have wished nothing whatever for Myself. What I have wished is the victory of God and the triumph of His Cause. He is Himself a sufficient witness between you and Me. Were ye to cleanse your eyes, ye would readily perceive how My deeds testify to the truth of My words, how My words are a guide to My deeds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 256-257
Those are not just empty words because His deeds aligned with His words, as can be clearly seen if one looks at His 40 year mission on earth and how he sacrificed everything for the Cause of God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The first to teach what?
So he is not the one, but a different one in the future. Probably a Bahai, right?
Oh, yes. The Bible says that:
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them:
“Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today about a good deed to a crippled man, and you want to know who made this man well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·reneʹ, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you. 11 This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”
Of course not. It would have been too suspicious, like the case of Smith and your prophet, I'm sorry.
No all Christians. We, Jehovah's witnesses don't do that. But there are many others who do not believe that either.
Yes he did. You just said it when you said: "All he ever claimed to be was the messenger of God for this age."... almost nothing (sarcasm).
The first to teach that BahaUllah is "the Son of Man" who Jesus Christ says would come to judge the world from heaven.
How convenient interpretation! Don't you suspect even a little bit?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You misinterpreted what I wrote.
Baha'u'llah claimed that He was the messenger of God for this age. He acknowledged the messengers of the past and he said more messengers of God would come in the future. When another messenger of God comes in the future Hid followers won't be called Baha'is since they won't be following Baha'u'llah.
"there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”
I never argued against that. Jesus was the only savior, but there is more to life than being saved, at least for people who are not selfish.
No, Jesus did not glorify Himself because He did not believe he was who Christians believe He was, the Christ according to Paul.
Below is an excerpt from the section of a book entitled The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer which explains how Paul changed the course of Christianity. You can read the entire section of the book which includes the references on the link to my thread below.
How Paul changed the course of Christianity
This is an excerpt from the book entitled The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer. This section explains how Paul changed the Christianity of Jesus. It is important to note that the views expressed by this author reflect his individual perspective and...
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Even if you do not believe that Jesus is God you are glorifying Jesus whenever you say that Jesus is the only way to God for all time.
Claiming to be the messenger of God for this age is not glorifying Himself.
Referring to Himself, Baha'u'llah wrote:
“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171
Similarly, Jesus said:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
When Jesus said that He was the way the truth and the life was that glorifying Himself?
No, He did not mean that. Jesus meant that He was the way the truth and the life and the only way to God for that age.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah was the first to explain what is meant by the Son of man in heaven.
"And now, concerning His words: “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” By these words it is meant that when the sun of the heavenly teachings hath been eclipsed, the stars of the divinely-established laws have fallen, and the moon of true knowledge—the educator of mankind—hath been obscured; when the standards of guidance and felicity have been reversed, and the morn of truth and righteousness hath sunk in night, then shall the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven. By “heaven” is meant the visible heaven, inasmuch as when the hour draweth nigh on which the Day-star of the heaven of justice shall be made manifest, and the Ark of divine guidance shall sail upon the sea of glory, a star will appear in the heaven, heralding unto its people the advent of that most great light. In like manner, in the invisible heaven a star shall be made manifest who, unto the peoples of the earth, shall act as a harbinger of the break of that true and exalted Morn. These twofold signs, in the visible and the invisible heaven, have announced the Revelation of each of the Prophets of God, as is commonly believed."
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 41-80
reference.bahai.org
Below is my explanation.
Baha’u’llah was the return of the Son of man because He was the return of Christ.
To paraphrase Baha’u’llah, Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being, which Baha’is call a Manifestation of God. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although they were delivered from the womb of their mother, Manifestations of God have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, their true habitations are the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence.
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
- I just found out on YouTube and Google Muslims don't believe Jesus was killed by the Romans.
- Someone else died in Jesus place. / Are they accusing the Bible of telling a big lie about Jesus resurrection too?
- They say Jesus is not the Son of God but a prophet, he did not rise from the dead or proclaim himself to be divine.
- I wonder if they believed Jesus is at God's right hand in heaven, like the Bible says?
- Is it true that Muslims believe Jesus is nothing more than a prophet, Just a great man?
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cataway
Well-Known Member
no he had it wrong .coming in the clouds means its not seen ,it means not visible to the eye . but because of the things happening we would know he has returned and is present
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What about the verse in the Bible that says that every eye shall see Him?
Revelation 1:7 KJ21
Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.
And what about the "cometh with clouds" part?
cataway
Well-Known Member
are you saying you cant see him ?i see him .the JW's see him .could it be you dont understand ?
Of course he did ... for his followers, not for Jesus' followers.
No, but because he didn't really needed. God did that for him:
2 Pet. 1:16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we made known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather, we were eyewitnesses of his magnificence. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him by the magnificent glory: “This is my Son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.” 18 Yes, these words we heard coming from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain.
... and that is the little difference (sarcasm again).
Mark 9:7 And a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud: “This is my Son, the beloved. Listen to him.”
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Son of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.
In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.
One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.
The Spiritual Meaning and Symbolism of Clouds
Learn about the spiritual and symbolic meaning of clouds in the Bible and the Baha'i Faith.
bahaiteachings.org
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
cataway
Well-Known Member
nopeSon of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.
In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.
One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.
The Spiritual Meaning and Symbolism of Clouds
Learn about the spiritual and symbolic meaning of clouds in the Bible and the Baha'i Faith.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
yep
Interesting, that according to Bahais the "clouds" are metaphorical, but the "eyes seeing" is literal ...
I don't know what the Mormon interpretation of the text is.
The truth is that a strictly biblical analysis is the only thing that can tell us the truth. Of course, to do that, we must accept not only part of what the Bible says, but all of it.
Also the theory of the evolution.
Do Bahais believe in the evolution of the species?