Jesus is not God

[walt]

I know the Baha’i religion developed from Shiite Islam in mid-19th century Iran.

Another sect developed in late 19th-century India was a Sunni sect called the Aḥmadīyah, when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, a self-proclaimed prophet, professed to be a manifestation of Muḥammad, the returned Jesus, and an incarnation of the Hindu Krishna. He taught that Jesus, after escaping death at Golgotha, fled to India, where he remained active until his death at 120.

There you have another selfproclaimed prophet, another "manifestation" ... very close to Husain Alí (known as Baha'u'lláh).

Jesus dies at the age of 120 years old?

 

[Eli G]

Jesus dies at the age of 120 years old?

That's what that other self-proclaimed prophet contemporary with BahaUllah taught.
It is clearly a reflection of the Islamic belief about a Jesus who did not die as Christian writings claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok.

Tell me: you say BahaUllah recognize Jesus as the only Messiah.

Baha'u'llah did not recognize Jesus as the only Messiah.

If BahaUllah said something that contradicts Jesus' teachings, who is lying?

Christianity does not have Jesus' teachings since Jesus did not write anything. All you have is what came to the authors of the NT by way of oral tradition and that is not reliable.

Nobody is lying, but if Baha'u'llah said something that is contrary to Christian beliefs, I believe that whatever Baha'u'llah said would supersede Christian beliefs.

 

[Eli G]

Christianity does not have Jesus' teachings since Jesus did not write anything. All you have is what came to the authors of the NT by way of oral tradition and that is not reliable.

So, what JesusChrist talked BahaUllah about if he didn't meet him but through "what came to the authors of the NT by way of oral tradition and that is not reliable."? Are you saying BahaUllah is not reliable when talking about Jesus?

Nobody is lying, but if Baha'u'llah said something that is contrary to Christian beliefs, I believe that whatever Baha'u'llah said would supersede Christian beliefs.

That I thought, since you are a Bahai, not a Christian.
Thanks for your honesty.

Now, when you said this:

There is only one savior, and that is Jesus Christ.

...Do you understand that calling Jesus as JESUS CHRIST you are recognizing him as THE MESSIAH?

 

[walt]

Baha'u'llah did not recognize Jesus as the only Messiah.

Christianity does not have Jesus' teachings since Jesus did not write anything. All you have is what came to the authors of the NT by way of oral tradition and that is not reliable.

Nobody is lying, but if Baha'u'llah said something that is contrary to Christian beliefs, I believe that whatever Baha'u'llah said would supersede Christian beliefs.

For you to say that doesn't that not make your beliefs proof, Your way does not harmonize with the Bible teachings?

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer It seems too complicated for you, so I'll put it a different way:

Suppose a Jehovah's Witness quotes to you a teaching of Jesus Christ directly from His words recorded in the Bible. At the same time, he quotes to you directly from the Bahai writings a teaching of Baha'Ullah that clearly contradicts the teaching of Jesus shown.

Sorry, but as I just said, you do not have the direct words of Jesus Christ recorded in the Bible.
All you have are what the NT authors wrote that Jesus allegedly said and Paul speaking for who he believed Jesus was. This is unreliable..

By stark contrast, Baha'is have the original writings of Baha'u'llah that were penned in His own hand and stamped with His official seal.

IF you has anything written by Jesus, there would be no contradictions between what Jesus wrote and what Baha'u'llah wrote.
Even though there is nothing written by Jesus, what is in the NT is not contradictory to anything that Baha'u'llah wrote, if interpreted correctly.

Which of the following is most likely to occur in your case:

1) You try to twist Jesus' words to fit the Bahais teachings
2) You try to re-interpret the Bahai teaching to fit Jesus' teaching
3) You reject the Bahai writings as contradicting the teachings of Jesus
4) You try to downplay what the Bible says, rejecting the Jesus spoken of there.
5) ... other. Explain.

5) Other
a) Anything that is in the Baha'i writings supersedes anything that is recorded in the Bible, if there is a conflict between the two, since Baha'u'llah was the latest Messenger of God.
b) Christians twisted what is recorded in the Bible in order to support certain Christian beliefs and doctrines and which the Baha'i Faith teaches are false.

 

[Trailblazer]

Suppose a Jehovah's Witness quotes to you a teaching of Jesus Christ directly from His words recorded in the Bible. At the same time, he quotes to you directly from the Bahai writings a teaching of Baha'Ullah that clearly contradicts the teaching of Jesus shown.

Suppose a Jehovah's Witness quotes to a Trinitarian Christian what he believes is a teaching of Jesus Christ directly from His words recorded in the Bible, and the JW and the Trinitarian Christian have contradictory beliefs? What do you think that means?

 

[Eli G]

Sorry, but as I just said, you do not have the direct words of Jesus Christ recorded in the Bible.
All you have are what the NT authors wrote that Jesus allegedly said and Paul speaking for who he believed Jesus was. This is unreliable..

The same to BahaUllah. He cann't say anything about any Jesus since the only things he knew is what he read in the Christian Writings (the versions he read) ... BahaIUllah is not reliable then.

By stark contrast, Baha'is have the original writings of Baha'u'llah that were penned in His own hand and stamped with His official seal.

In the 19th century, like Joseph Smith, Ellen White, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and so many others.

IF you has anything written by Jesus, there would be no contradictions between what Jesus wrote and what Baha'u'llah wrote.

Why would be that? Did BahaUllah have any private source of knowledge about Jesus' teachings?

a) Anything that is in the Baha'i writings supersedes anything that is recorded in the Bible, if there is a conflict between the two, since Baha'u'llah was the latest Messenger of God.
b) Christians twisted what is recorded in the Bible in order to support certain Christian beliefs and doctrines and which the Baha'i Faith teaches are false.

Oh, well, you seem to hear "Christians" when I say "Bible".
There's some error that you need to correct on your way of listening what I say.

 

[walt]

Sorry, but as I just said, you do not have the direct words of Jesus Christ recorded in the Bible.
All you have are what the NT authors wrote that Jesus allegedly said and Paul speaking for who he believed Jesus was. This is unreliable..

By stark contrast, Baha'is have the original writings of Baha'u'llah that were penned in His own hand and stamped with His official seal.

IF you has anything written by Jesus, there would be no contradictions between what Jesus wrote and what Baha'u'llah wrote.
Even though there is nothing written by Jesus, what is in the NT is not contradictory to anything that Baha'u'llah wrote, if interpreted correctly.

5) Other
a) Anything that is in the Baha'i writings supersedes anything that is recorded in the Bible, if there is a conflict between the two, since Baha'u'llah was the latest Messenger of God.
b) Christians twisted what is recorded in the Bible in order to support certain Christian beliefs and doctrines and which the Baha'i Faith teaches are false.

It sounds like from each word you speak, The New Testament is unreliable, We should just listen to your Holy Scriptures instead!

You are not agreeing with the Bible, You are correcting the Bible, Doesn't this make your teachings Anti-Bible?

 

[Trailblazer]

I am wondering if you know what a person is to be saved from in the first place ?

A person is to be saved from his own sin. Sin is disobedience to God.

 

[Eli G]

Suppose a Jehovah's Witness quotes to a Trinitarian Christian what he believes is a teaching of Jesus Christ directly from His words recorded in the Bible, and the JW and the Trinitarian Christian have contradictory beliefs? What do you think that means?

I have a lot of interesting conversations with Trinitarian believers ... and those are very different with respect to a conversation with a Bahai.
Trinitarians don't have any other prophet to hear, so there are many chances they understand what I say.

 

[Eli G]

It sounds like from each word you speak, The New Testament is unreliable, We should just listen to your Holy Scriptures instead!

And even so, Bahaullah trusted on it to learn about Jesus and his teachings, or at least that's what I think ...

Do you think there's any non-biblical source about Jesus' teachings that BahaUllah consulted, @Trailblazer ?

Joseph Smith is known to have read from the KJV Bible version. Do you know which Bible version BahaUllah may have read from, in 19th century Iran?

 

[Trailblazer]

I know the Baha’i religion developed from Shiite Islam in mid-19th century Iran.

That is false. The Baha'i Faith did not develop from Islam.
The Baha'i Faith developed from a new revelation from God to Baha'u'llah.

Another sect developed in late 19th-century India was a Sunni sect called the Aḥmadīyah, when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, a self-proclaimed prophet, professed to be a manifestation of Muḥammad, the returned Jesus, and an incarnation of the Hindu Krishna. He taught that Jesus, after escaping death at Golgotha, fled to India, where he remained active until his death at 120.

The Baha'i Faith is NOT a sect of Islam. It is a new and independent religion from God.
Ask any Muslim and they will tell you that the Baha'i Faith is not a sect of Islam.

There you have another self proclaimed prophet, another "manifestation" ... very close to Husain Alí (known as Baha'u'lláh).

Both Jesus and Baha'u'llah were self proclaimed. How else would anyone know who they were?

Baha'u'llah was a self proclaimed Messenger and Manifestation of God, and was so regarded by His followers.

Jesus was a self proclaimed prophet.
Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, but He was regarded by most of His followers as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's what that other self-proclaimed prophet contemporary with BahaUllah taught.
It is clearly a reflection of the Islamic belief about a Jesus who did not die as Christian writings claim.

I do not think that Muhammad taught that. I think the Muslims misinterpreted the Qur'an.

Baha'u'llah wrote that Jesus died on the cross, as the NT claims.

 

[cataway]

A person is to be saved from his own sin. Sin is disobedience to God.

and the penalty for sin is , death ? (Romans 6:23 )

 

[Eli G]

Muslims rejected Bahais the same way Catholics called "separated brothers" to Protestants.

I already told you the difference between BahaUllah and Jesus. You seem to miss some important parts of my posts.

 

[Eli G]

Of course he did ... for his followers, not for Jesus' followers.

No, but because he didn't really needed. God did that for him:

2 Pet. 1:16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we made known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather, we were eyewitnesses of his magnificence. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him by the magnificent glory: “This is my Son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.” 18 Yes, these words we heard coming from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain.

... and that is the little difference (sarcasm again).

Mark 9:7 And a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud: “This is my Son, the beloved. Listen to him.”

Why are you comparing BahaUllah to Jesus if nothing like that happen in his case?

 

[Trailblazer]

So, what JesusChrist talked BahaUllah about if he didn't meet him but through "what came to the authors of the NT by way of oral tradition and that is not reliable."? Are you saying BahaUllah is not reliable when talking about Jesus?

Baha'u'llah is reliable when talking about Jesus because Baha'u'llah got His knowledge from God, not from the NT.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me. Can any one speak forth of his own accord that for which all men, both high and low, will protest against him? Nay, by Him Who taught the Pen the eternal mysteries, save him whom the grace of the Almighty, the All-Powerful, hath strengthened. The Pen of the Most High addresseth Me saying: Fear not. Relate unto His Majesty the Sháh that which befell thee. His heart, verily, is between the fingers of thy Lord, the God of Mercy, that haply the sun of justice and bounty may shine forth above the horizon of his heart. Thus hath the decree been irrevocably fixed by Him Who is the All-Wise.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 57-60

Now, when you said this:

...Do you understand that calling Jesus as JESUS CHRIST you are recognizing him as THE MESSIAH?

I do recognize Jesus as the Messiah, but not as the Messiah of the latter days.

 

[Trailblazer]

For you to say that doesn't that not make your beliefs proof, Your way does not harmonize with the Bible teachings?

There is no proof that any beliefs are true, Christian or Baha'i. If there was proof, they would be facts, not beliefs.

 

[Eli G]

Baha'u'llah is reliable when talking about Jesus because Baha'u'llah got His knowledge from God, not from the NT.

And how was that? Did he hear God's voice or saw a vision like Joseph Smith said he did? Did he talk to an angel? Did an angel give him any secret Scriptures that no one else had?

Anything ... at all? Or you believe so just because he said so and that's it?

I do recognize Jesus as the Messiah, but not as the Messiah of the latter days.

Interesting, but the Messiah is a figure that Jehovah promised to come: one of a class.

That is very different than that idea of many prophets, like the ones the Jews had and spoke in God's name. Actually, they talked to angels who gave them God's messages. Did BahaUllah?