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Jesus is not God

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
When I was studying that passage of the Bible I was surprised, because even Moses knew that Jesus Christ would be sent by Jehovah in the future. Still, there are some who make up that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person, and even say that Jehovah himself came in the flesh. But that contradicts what Jehovah told Moses, that he would send a prophet like him in the future.
Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.


It was Christianity that made Jesus into God, by its doctrine.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Obviously there is something that you don't understand about Jesus saying "I and the Father are one".
Obviously there is something that you don't understand about Jesus saying "I and the Father are one"

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Jesus was a Prophet, a Messenger of God, a Manifestation of God, and a Servant of God, and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


Jesus was able to do the works of the Father because the Father was in Him. Jesus said He could do nothing by Himself.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus didn't say anything about seeing the Holy Spirit! What He did say was "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father". Is that too hard for you to understand?
Jesus said he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (John 14:9) because Jesus was a mirror image of His Father.
That does not mean that Jesus WAS the Father. It means that Jesus was a mirror image of the Father.

Please note that Colossians 1:15 says that God is invisible.
Jesus was visible so that is one way we know that Jesus was not God.
Jesus was a perfect reflection of God, a mirror image of God, but not God incarnate.

Colossians 1

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.


The Father is in the Son because Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God was visible and manifest in Jesus, and that is why Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
 
It is illogical that Jesus is considered the Son of God and at the same time God in person. It is like saying "Jesus is his own Son"

The preposition OF already indicates that it is a connection between two different persons: GOD and Jesus, Father and Son, the Deity and his priest, the Creator of the Universe and his envoy/messenger, the Sovereign and his Anointed One, ...

Or: how is he God's prophet, and at the same time God? Same in the expression "the Lamb of God", and some others.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It is illogical that Jesus is considered the Son of God and at the same time God in person. It is like saying "Jesus is his own Son"

The preposition OF already indicates that it is a connection between two different persons: GOD and Jesus, Father and Son, the Deity and his priest, the Creator of the Universe and his envoy/messenger, the Sovereign and his Anointed One, ...

Or: how is he God's prophet, and at the same time God? Same in the expression "the Lamb of God", and some others.
Don't expect most Christians to be logical. It is a rarity to find one who can see past the doctrines of the Church.

If the Bible is correct in the way God is described, there is no way that Jesus can be God. God is Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have those attributes. That means that logically speaking Jesus was not God.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's not too hard because I understand that Jesus did not mean he was the Father. He was describing a very very close relationship with his Father. Closer than anyone else. He was with God his Father in heaven for a long time before he came to the earth. He prayed to the Father.
Obviously you don't understand the tripartite God.

Jesus was most definitely not describing a very very close relationship with his Father. He was saying that He and the Father are one and the same.

Your last sentence is changing the subject. Why is that?
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Look what the Bible says about Jesus Christ; here Moses speaks:

Deut. 18:15 A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you—to him YOU people should listen— 16 in response to all that you asked of Jehovah your God in Hoʹreb on the day of the congregation, saying, ‘Do not let me hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, and this great fire do not let me see anymore, that I may not die.’ 17 At that Jehovah said to me, ‘They have done well in speaking what they did. 18 A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him.

When I was studying that passage of the Bible I was surprised, because even Moses knew that Jesus Christ would be sent by Jehovah in the future. Still, there are some who make up that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person, and even say that Jehovah himself came in the flesh. But that contradicts what Jehovah told Moses, that he would send a prophet like him in the future.

Heb. 1:2 says that although Jehovah spoke through other prophets in ancient times, in the first century he spoke through a son, who was that special prophet that he had told Moses he would send.

In Acts 3:22-26 Peter says very clearly that Jesus was that prophet that Jehovah had promised Moses He would send.
Hebrews 1:1-3, "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."

It does not say that He spoke through a son; it says He spoke to us by his Son.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It is illogical that Jesus is considered the Son of God and at the same time God in person. It is like saying "Jesus is his own Son"

The preposition OF already indicates that it is a connection between two different persons: GOD and Jesus, Father and Son, the Deity and his priest, the Creator of the Universe and his envoy/messenger, the Sovereign and his Anointed One, ...

Or: how is he God's prophet, and at the same time God? Same in the expression "the Lamb of God", and some others.
Obviously you don't understand the concept of the Trinity, a.k.a., the Godhead. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three entities that all are part of the one God.

I am body, mind, and spirit. So which part of me is separate?
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The concept of the tripartite God is not easy to understand. For those of you who try to explain it logically (which doesn't work), ask God to reveal the concept to you.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."
I agree, but a representation of his being is not his being.

Case in point: I look in the mirror and see an exact representation of myself in the mirror, but it is not me in the mirror.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Obviously you don't understand the tripartite God.

Jesus was most definitely not describing a very very close relationship with his Father. He was saying that He and the Father are one and the same.

Your last sentence is changing the subject. Why is that?
triparte as in three parts?? (wow...is all I can say...) Ya know -- woman was made from man. Eve was taken from Adam. She was not taken herself from the earth as Adam was. Does that mean Eve is a man?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It is illogical that Jesus is considered the Son of God and at the same time God in person. It is like saying "Jesus is his own Son"

The preposition OF already indicates that it is a connection between two different persons: GOD and Jesus, Father and Son, the Deity and his priest, the Creator of the Universe and his envoy/messenger, the Sovereign and his Anointed One, ...

Or: how is he God's prophet, and at the same time God? Same in the expression "the Lamb of God", and some others.
In agreement with your reasoning from the Scriptures, the Bible says that Eve was taken from Adam's body (his rib). It also says that a married couple, man and woman, are one flesh.
Matthew 19:5 - and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." One flesh. The two are one flesh. Just as Jesus and his Father are one.
Genesis 2 - "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

That does not mean that Eve is Adam, or that a man is his wife.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
The interpretation of the phrase "we are one" as a union of purposes is a forced understanding of Jesus's words. He explicitly said, "I am in God, and I and the Father are one; we are particular relatives!"

The Jews understood this as a claim to divinity (elohim) and we know that Jesus had not received "authority" from the Jews.

Similarly, in Pharaoh's dreams, although there are two distinct manifestations, they share a single metaphysical essence. This dual unity extends the argument beyond mere singularity to encompass substantial unity involving two or more entities. It's important to note that the phrase "we are one," which appears in the Johannine context in Greek and likely echoes an Aramaic or Hebrew original, also finds resonance in the narrative of Pharaoh’s dreams, emphasizing a profound unity despite multiple manifestations. Gn 41:26-27

The central issue is whether this union is permanent or transient.
 
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jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
triparte as in three parts?? (wow...is all I can say...) Ya know -- woman was made from man. Eve was taken from Adam. She was not taken herself from the earth as Adam was. Does that mean Eve is a man?
Do you really think that your bizarre logic deserves a response?

P.S. What is "triparte"?
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In agreement with your reasoning from the Scriptures, the Bible says that Eve was taken from Adam's body (his rib). It also says that a married couple, man and woman, are one flesh.
Matthew 19:5 - and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." One flesh. The two are one flesh. Just as Jesus and his Father are one.
Genesis 2 - "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

That does not mean that Eve is Adam, or that a man is his wife.
If you understood what the Bible says, you would understand that a man and a woman are one, i.e., spiritually joined.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If you understood what the Bible says, you would understand that a man and a woman are one, i.e., spiritually joined.
Not always. Nevertheless the wife cannot reasonably say she is her husband. or vice versa. She might say she is one with her husband but she cannot say that means she is her husband.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Do you really think that your bizarre logic deserves a response?
My reasoning is not bizarre. To say Jesus is the father and relate that to husband and wife being one is not reasonable for various reasons. Perhaps later you will see.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If you understood what the Bible says, you would understand that a man and a woman are one, i.e., spiritually joined.
If you understood what the Bible says, you would understand that Jesus and God are one, i.e., spiritually joined.
But just like the man and woman remain separate entities, so do Jesus and God.

That means that Jesus is not God.
 
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