Jesus is not God

[Oeste]

The title is a statement for discussion, NOT an accusation, so the onus is on both the Trinitarians and the non-trinitarians to state their reasons for or against that statement.

The onus is ALWAYS on the poster to show sufficient evidence to support their statement. I haven't seen any such evidence.

It does not matter really who proclaimed Jesus is God or the trinity, it’s about whether Jesus is God or not, or whether the trinity came from God Almighty or it's man-made, that’s what we are discussing here.

The greater the claim, the more evidence needed, and the needle hasn't moved. When the needle moves and more Christians are against the Trinity than for it, rest assured there will be more people here to defend it.

But any defense will be directed at folk who accept scripture as true, not to those who claim it not.

You seem to have this perception that if the majority of the people believe ‘Jesus is God’, and the belief that ‘Jesus is NOT God’ came from the minority of the people, then, ‘Jesus is God’ must be the truth as the majority believe so, when the opposite is most likely to be the truth. A

I have this perception that scripture is true and not bogus.

Oeste said:
No, I came to this thread to discuss the Trinity doctrine and perhaps be impressed by reasoned arguments against it. But I've seen nothing new, and nothing that hasn't been presented previously.

Well, nothing new (or previous) came from you that anyone can be impressed. Your empty arguments for the trinity are just gibberish nonsense as you cannot even prove that Jesus (or for that matter any prophets of God) preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth.

Since you've already claimed much of the NT as bogus, we can clearly see why you believe as you do.

Oeste said:
Satan has already taken his, but he swung and missed at Nicea.
Jesus is God and the teaching is here to stay.

On the contrary, Satan hit bullseye at Nicea!

I suppose he did, at least for the short while Arians took over.

So, you can see why ‘Jesus is God/trinity’ was NEVER preached by Jesus nor did it come from God Almighty but the belief ‘Jesus is God/trinity’ came from the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, and that’s about 295 years gap between Jesus’ life on earth and the Council’s affirmation of Jesus’ divinity. Let me say it again, NOT God Almighty or HIS prophet Jesus’ affirmation, BUT it’s the Council’s affirmation.

And all we have to do is toss a few scriptures out the window?

I'll pass.

 

[Soapy]

μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).



Who is the "I Am" of scripture?

Besides, the Father says he's God at Hebrews 1:8.

And you may want to review @Dimi95's post at 2272.

All content below are ‘My Opinions backed up by Scriptural references where applicable’ regardless of how powerfully they are expressed:

How many of humanity have been ‘Set Aside and remained Set-A-Side as Son of God’? (I need your answer in order to further this point - failure to respond would make it appear you are conceding the point!)

I don’t need to review Dimi’s post. I am responding as I see a post in my list.

‘I am’ just means ‘’Eternally the same’. It’s impossible to say that Jesus Christ is/was ‘Eternally the same’ throughout his life.

Even now, Jesus Christ is ‘waiting to BECOME’ the ‘Eternal Father’ as prophesied in Isaiah.

Jesus became ‘Christ’ when he was Anointed BY GOD!!!

Jesus WAS BORN… even by trinity claims … as a human Being.

Jesus Christ DIED and his OLD BODY was disposed of and he was RESURRECTED into a NEW BODY.

Jesus, and even as Christ, needed food, drink, rest, company, … to sustain his life…. Does GOD need these things?

Jesus Christ ‘sat’ next to GOD… ‘Beside me there is no other God’ says the almighty God: The Father!!

Jesus was GIVEN POWER AND AUTHORITY TO RULE… GOD is ETERNAL AUTHORITY AND RULER…

Jesus Christ WILL BE everlasting ruler over CREATION. Almighty God: The Father is eternal ruler over ALL THINGS: Heaven AND Earth (Creation). There is a clear hierarchy with GOD at the top and Jesus Christ below… and the rest of humanity below Jesus Christ - it’s simple, which is why the rest of Humanity need to ‘GO THROUGH Jesus CHRIST IN ORDER TO REACH ALMIGHTY GOD … Jesus Christ is the GATEWAY to reach GOD!

 

[Soapy]

μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).



Who is the "I Am" of scripture?

Besides, the Father says he's God at Hebrews 1:8.

And you may want to review @Dimi95's post at 2272.

‘O God’ does not mean ‘Almighty God’. It means “O MIGHTY ONE”.

Anyone can be ‘God’ in [context]:

• ‘The presiding Judge is GOD [of his courtroom]’
• ‘The Commander of the mighty army is GOD [of the battle field]’
• ‘The mighty Lion is GOD [of the grasslands]’

In Hebrews 1:8 you will see that the context of the ‘Godship’ is a throne that is explicit to Jesus Christ, and therefore cannot be the throne of GOD, the Almighty God, and the kingdom is that of THE SON…. Not the Father…’THY KINGDOM COME - THY WILL BE DONE’!

 

[Soapy]

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Rev 1:8)

My opinion is:
I agree…

This verse is certainly talking about The Father; Almighty God; YHWH…
The term ‘Who is, was, and is to be’ absolutely means ‘Eternally - Always Being - Never anything else’ which contrasts with Jesus Christ saying:

• ‘I am he WHO WAS DEAD, BUT AM NOW… alive Eternally’

Where does ALMIGHTY GOD ever claim to have been DEAD!?

Nothing that CHANGES can claim to be ETERNALLY THE SAME!!

Show them how many times Jesus changes (He BECOMES) throughout his life!!

 

[Soapy]

“They are 3 men, ONE team just as the triune God is 3 persons, ONE God.”

So, Oeste, I am just asking if you are saying that your Trinity ‘GOD’ is a ‘TEAM’… not a PERSON?

Who is the team leader in your ‘God’ team?

 

[Oeste]

How many of humanity have been ‘Set Aside and remained Set-A-Side as Son of God’?

How many???

Revelation 7:9: "After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands".​

These are many Sons of God @Soapy. They should not be confused with the only begotten Son.

(I need your answer in order to further this point - failure to respond would make it appear you are conceding the point!)

See above

I don’t need to review Dimi’s post. I am responding as I see a post in my list.

Well, I need your answer in order to further this point - failure to respond would make it appear you are conceding Dimi95's point!

‘I am’ just means ‘’Eternally the same’. It’s impossible to say that Jesus Christ is/was ‘Eternally the same’ throughout his life.

Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am !” (John 8:58)​

I'm not sure what you mean by the word "just", but I'm pretty sure "I AM" means a lot more than you think it means.

Even now, Jesus Christ is ‘waiting to BECOME’ the ‘Eternal Father’ as prophesied in Isaiah.

Jesus became ‘Christ’ when he was Anointed BY GOD!!!

How did Jesus become Christ when he's been "eternally the same"?

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hebrews 13:8​

Jesus WAS BORN… even by trinity claims … as a human Being.

Correct! He is fully Son of Man.

Jesus Christ DIED and his OLD BODY was disposed of and he was RESURRECTED into a NEW BODY.

Incorrect! When Lazarus was resurrected, did they dispose of his OLD BODY to give him a new?

If so, please give us a chapter and verse for Lazarus, and a chapter and verse for Jesus.

Jesus, and even as Christ, needed food, drink, rest, company, … to sustain his life…. Does GOD need these things?

The Son of Man needs these things. The Son of God does not.

Jesus Christ ‘sat’ next to GOD… ‘Beside me there is no other God’ says the almighty God: The Father!!

The Father Himself states Jesus is God at Hebrews 1:8, yet there is no God but God. Your Christology needs to account for this.

Can you account for this, or do you agree with the Bahai that Hebrews 1:8 is something to dismiss?

Jesus was GIVEN POWER AND AUTHORITY TO RULE… GOD is ETERNAL AUTHORITY AND RULER…

Yes, this was given to the resurrected Son of Man after he successfully completed the mission given to him by the Father. The preincarnate Jesus always had this authority as God, a tempting target and "mission completed" shortcut that Satan encouraged the Son of Man to grasp.

‘O God’ does not mean ‘Almighty God’. It means “O MIGHTY ONE”.

Let me guess: After telling us there is only ONE God, is this where you tell us there are two Gods, one Mighty and one Almighty?

Anyone can be ‘God’ in [context]:

• ‘The presiding Judge is GOD [of his courtroom]’
• ‘The Commander of the mighty army is GOD [of the battle field]’
• ‘The mighty Lion is GOD [of the grasslands]’

Yes, but as Christians we should not be impressed by these so-called God. These Gods walk about in darkness and will be judged by the only true God:

Psalm 84:

1. God presides in the great assembly; He renders judgment among the “gods”:​

“How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality...​

​

5. ...“The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness;​

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;​

you are all sons of the Most High.’​

7 But you will die like mere mortals;​

you will fall like every other ruler.”​

So it would be better for the judge, commander and even the lion to remain a judge, commander or lion than to consider or make themselves God.

 

[Oeste]

‘O God’ does not mean ‘Almighty God’

Really? Can you elaborate or give us your source for this please?

Anyone can be ‘God’ in [context]:

• ‘The presiding Judge is GOD [of his courtroom]’
• ‘The Commander of the mighty army is GOD [of the battle field]’
• ‘The mighty Lion is GOD [of the grasslands]’

Anyone can be "Almighty God" in [context]:

• Odin, considered Almighty God by the Norse
• Jupiter, considered Almighty God by the Romans
• Zeus, considered Almighty God by the Greeks

Whether Mighty or Almighty, whether worshiped on not worshiped, whether written, voiced, whispered or exclaimed, whether questioned or stated, whether in eternity past, present or infinite future, whether preceded by an adjective or without it, make no mistake:

scripture unequivocally states there is but ONE and only ONE true God.​

As for Odin, Jupiter, Zeus, Ra, Baal and the rest, they had a chance to show up and strut their stuff at Mt. Carmel. Every last one of them was a no-show.

And as for these men we make or who make themselves "God", they come under the judgment of God:

Jesus Will Judge the World​

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all his angels are with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 The people of every nation will be gathered in front of him. He will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right but the goats on his left. Source​

• ‘I am he WHO WAS DEAD, BUT AM NOW… alive Eternally’

Where does ALMIGHTY GOD ever claim to have been DEAD!?

Who claims God died?

That may have been popular, secular wisdom in the 60's, but never a doctrine of any Christian church I'm familiar with.

Jesus lived his life on earth as man, not as God. If he lived his life here as God, then nailing him to a cross would have been futile.

It was the Son of Man who died, not the Son of God.

Nothing that CHANGES can claim to be ETERNALLY THE SAME!!

Show them how many times Jesus changes (He BECOMES) throughout his life!!

Exactly @Soapy! The Son of God is "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow." (Hebrews 13:8) He is, as you clearly state, ETERNALLY THE SAME!!

The Son of Man can make no such claim. He is, after all, just man.


This is an excellent point for you to bring up, as it shows the dual nature of Jesus: fully God and fully Man.

 

[Oeste]

“They are 3 men, ONE team just as the triune God is 3 persons, ONE God.”

So, Oeste, I am just asking if you are saying that your Trinity ‘GOD’ is a ‘TEAM’… not a PERSON?

Who is the team leader in your ‘God’ team?

No, I am not saying that at all.

"THEY" is a reference to ONE team of 3 men, not to the Triune God. God is not a team of men.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
Get a good, reputable book on the Trinity. I think you've read a bit too much on the internet.

Sure. I will get a ‘good’ book on the trinity when you can show me from the scripture Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth. Fair?

Oeste said:
What on earth does your division have to do with the Trinity???

Likewise, what on earth has a ‘3-in-1’ God have to do with the ABSOLUTE ONE AND ONLY GOD ALMIGHTY???

Oeste said:
This may come as a surprise, but ONE can be divided by two, three or four! But we don't divide one human into quarters, and we don't divide one God into thirds.

Wow, you are right, this did come as a surprise to me ‘cos you finally figured out we don't divide one human into quarters. Congrats!

Oeste said:
There are 3 "persons" in the Trinity and neither person is "divisible" into thirds.

Yes, you did tell me there are 3 persons in the trinity, and that means the trinity is a combination of 1+1+1 persons, and if it’s a combination of 1+1+1 persons, then it can also be separated (divisible) as 1 person, the second person, and the third person. Likewise, a combination of 1 apple + 1 orange + 1 banana in one box can be separated (divisible) as 1 apple, 1 orange, and 1 banana.

Oeste said:
There is also one God in the Trinity, and God is not divisible.

Hold on, didn’t you just say there are 3 persons in the trinity??!! Make up your mind!

Oeste said:
This is why God is Triune.

Because there are 3 persons in the trinity??? You are not making any sense!

Oeste said:
And no, Triune does not mean "divisible by three". It means He is indivisible.
I gave you a good example with the apples Jerry Myers. Had you simply completed the exercise you would have found there is no division when you multiply by one.

Really?? You mean the scripture told you that God multiplied by Jesus multiplied the Holy Spirit EQUAL ONE??! Where exactly in the scripture said that??

Oeste said:
Jesus is fully, and not partly God.

Again, where exactly in the scripture said that??

Oeste said:
The Christian God is not contained by time and space, so Jesus' coexistence is not something anyone should worry about.

Well definitely, Jesus is contained by time and space, so he can’t be God as God is not contained by time and space.

Oeste said:
You might benefit from a good class on Christology. If Jesus had grasped out to seize his glory as God, his mission to die as Son of Man would have been over, he would have never been able to die.

Well, if Christology is about Jesus’ human and divine natures, then, firstly, you have to show me from your scripture that God Almighty said or implied that Jesus is fully man and fully God.

Oeste said:
"Switching" occurs with Modalism, not in the Trinity. Learn the difference and you will no longer confuse the two.

If Jesus is fully man and full God as you believe, then if there are times when he’s fully man and there are times when he’s fully God, so, yes, ‘switching’ must have occurred, unless you also believe Jesus is fully man/fully God at all times.

Oeste said:
There are no mixed case letters in early Hebrew, Aramaic, or Attic Greek.

Yes, I know, but why are you telling me this??

Oeste said:
You have two Lords here when scripture tells us there is only one God and Lord.
Remember, Jesus was NEVER made secular Lord by any earthly authority during his ministry.

Yes, during his ministry on earth, Jesus was NEVER made secular Lord God by any earthly authority, if it was, Jesus would have stopped that nonsense.
And, remember, Jesus was NEVER made secular Lord God by God Almighty.

Oeste said:
But I didn't raise the point, remember? I just helped it along.

So, you are not trying to raise any point when you come out with your ‘‘if A= Jesus, B= God, C= the Father’?? OK.
That’s why I said your comments are just nonsense, without any points to show.

Oeste said:
Why would I incorporate heretical ideas into Christian theology?

Then why come out with that ‘if A=Jesus, B= God, C= God’ nonsense???

Oeste said:
That sounds more like a job for the Bahai.

For a second, I thought you’re going to say, “This is a job for Supermannn! Up up, and awayyy”. Sorry, what’s this obsession with Bahai you have???!

Oeste said:
But I suspect you'll end up with a tangled mish mash that no Christian believes.

You mean like how you end up into a pretzel to tailor-fit your man-made doctrine into the scripture??

Oeste said:
No need as there is nothing to show the OP was ever correct.

You mean like nothing you said about Jesus being God was ever correct as God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus never said or implied that in your scripture.

Oeste said:
Preaching Christ crucified sometimes has that effect on people.

Yes, I knowwww! Just look at you, only gibberish nonsense come from you!

Oeste said:
No, as stated, from the Christology of Modalists.

What??! 'Apple and orange will be the manifestations of the one true fruit' comes from the Christology of Modalists??! Maybe you should stop preaching Jesus crucified as the nonsense effect it has on people who preach such, is showing on you.

Oeste said:
Look around. "The proof is in the pudding" is an old adage I think applicable here. 2 billion and counting.

Yes, I did look around, and I see a lot of people, 2 billion and counting, walking through ‘wide is the gate and broad is the road that lead to destruction’.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
The onus is ALWAYS on the poster to show sufficient evidence to support their statement. I haven't seen any such evidence.

Neither have I seen any evidence from you that Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth. Can you or can’t you??

Oeste said:
The greater the claim, the more evidence needed, and the needle hasn't moved. When the needle moves and more Christians are against the Trinity than for it, rest assured there will be more people here to defend it.

It still does NOT matter whether the needle moves or not as it’s not about the needle, it’s about whether Jesus is God or not, or whether the trinity came from God Almighty or that belief is man-made.

Oeste said:
But any defense will be directed at folk who accept scripture as true, not to those who claim it not.

Well, you accept scripture as true, so, show me from the scripture where Jesus preached trinity in his lifetime on earth.

Oeste said:
I have this perception that scripture is true and not bogus.

Yup, then again, we all know perception is NOT reality.

Oeste said:
Since you've already claimed much of the NT as bogus, we can clearly see why you believe as you do.

I never claimed, as you put it, “much of the NT as bogus”, I said the Bible you have today is a Book of truth and lies, which means if the Bible is 90% true and 10% lies, it is still a Book of truth and lies.

Oeste said:
I suppose he did, at least for the short while Arians took over.

Well, maybe Satan did try to convince Arians that God Almighty is not the ABSOLUTE ONE God, but then Satan thought of a better way to deceive 2.7 billion (and counting) people, and in 325 AD, Satan did just that and the rest is history.

Oeste said:
And all we have to do is toss a few scriptures out the window? I'll pass.

Why not? If Jesus’ divinity is something that was NOT affirmed by God Almighty, but by man’s authority, that is, the First Council of Nicaea, then tossing the lies out of the window is a small sacrifice to make for the truth. But then, if you want to keep the lies because 2.7 billion and counting believe it then, I can understand why you will take a pass.

 

[Oeste]

Oeste said:
Get a good, reputable book on the Trinity. I think you've read a bit too much on the internet.

Sure. I will get a ‘good’ book on the trinity when you can show me from the scripture Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth. Fair?

Getting a book does not require a preacher, but you have to do what is fair for you Jerry Myers. If you had studied the Trinity, you would know the difference between the Trinity and Modalistic monarchianism and I would not have had to explain the difference here.

Perhaps you have a book where Jesus preaches the Bahaullah.

If you do it would save a lot of time.

Sure. I will get a ‘good’ book on the trinity

You've already dismissed the NT as truth and lies, and you also proclaimed to all the readers that your biased preconception is unassailable, and all scripture must be measured against your preconception otherwise it's not really scripture.

when you can show me from the scripture Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth. Fair?

The Father refers to Jesus as God and you didn't believe that. I don't think Jesus saying the same would be any different.

No one need marvel at this. You do not believe the NT, so your disbelief in the Trinity is a given.

Oeste said:
What on earth does your division have to do with the Trinity???

Likewise, what on earth has a ‘3-in-1’ God have to do with the ABSOLUTE ONE AND ONLY GOD ALMIGHTY???

Already explained. There is absolutely one and only one God. There is no division, so why you insist on dividing is beyond me.

Oeste said:
This may come as a surprise, but ONE can be divided by two, three or four! But we don't divide one human into quarters, and we don't divide one God into thirds.

Wow, you are right, this did come as a surprise to me ‘cos you finally figured out we don't divide one human into quarters. Congrats!

Then why did you attempt to divide our one and only God into threes?

Yes, you did tell me there are 3 persons in the trinity, and that means the trinity is a combination of 1+1+1 persons,

The trinity is a doctrine. The trinity is not a combination of 1+1+1 persons. There is no "addition" in the doctrine of the Trinity.

and if it’s a combination of 1+1+1 persons, then it can also be separated (divisible) as 1 person

Each person, as mentioned in the Trinity doctrine (had you ever bothered to read it) is FULLY God by nature. The persons are distinct but not divisible by three. There is no division in the Trinity.

In short, there is no addition or division in Trinity doctrine. There is plenty of it in your comments, but none in the doctrine itself.

, the second person, and the third person. Likewise, a combination of 1 apple + 1 orange + 1 banana in one box can be separated (divisible) as 1 apple, 1 orange, and 1 banana.

No!

God is TRIUNE, not THREE, and the apple, orange, and banana are not one "box".

You can't box the Trinity into your example. It doesn't fit and its not even applicable.

This is why I suggested you get a good book on the Trinity.

Oeste said:
There is also one God in the Trinity, and God is not divisible.

Hold on, didn’t you just say there are 3 persons in the trinity??!! Make up your mind!

Yes I did, three persons, one God. That is what "Triune" means.

If you had just gotten yourself a book...

Oeste said:
This is why God is Triune.

Because there are 3 persons in the trinity??? You are not making any sense!

Probably because you never actually understood what is meant by 'triune'.

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...". (GENESIS 1:26)

• Psalm 86:8-10: "There is none like you among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like yours".
  
  
• 1 Samuel 2:2: "There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God".
  
  
• Isaiah 46:9–10: "I am God, and there is no other; I am God and there is no one like me"

• Isaiah 44:24: "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,"
  
  

Since God was all alone, and there are none like God, and there are no works like the work of God, can you explain who is the "us" and "our" at Genesis 1:26?

Please try to give a straight up answer rather than another question you hope might deflect.

Oh snap! I forgot!! You must forgive me.

Genesis 1:26 goes against this PRESUMPTION you have against scripture. You've told us, time and time again, that any scripture that smacks your PRESUMPTION out of the ball park is simply not scripture. Any such scripture, according to you, is a fraud, part of a fake gospel...fake news from fake scripture penned by lying scribes since the time of Jeremiah.

I forgot about that. So it's highly likely you no more believe the scripture you post than the scripture I or anyone else on this forum posts in response. In fact, no reader can know the truth of any scriptural posted as it is all subject to this prior presumption and your personal seal of validity. For some unknown reason, this cannot be done in advance, but only on a case by case basis after the scripture is posted.

Which makes any further conversation with you pointless. I asked where we might find your single source of truth since you told us our bibles are not reliable. You have posted nothing of the sort but expect us to post while we await your decree.

Once again, the only way you can make a point with any veracity is to throw a few scriptures out the window.

I'll pass.

Oeste said:
And all we have to do is toss a few scriptures out the window? I'll pass.

Why not?

Why bother?

If Jesus’ divinity is something that was NOT affirmed by God Almighty,

Again, it was affirmed by the Father at Hebrews 1:8, which you consider, like most NT verses, to be highly suspect, corrupt, or gibberish.

but by man’s authority, that is, the First Council of Nicaea,

Of course! We should have traded "man's authority" for the authority of Jerry Myers and the Bahaullah! Why did Christians jump the gun (or bow) when they could have simply waited a few hundred years for "the truth"?

Oh I don't know. Maybe they already had it?

You know, like when Christ told us HE was the way, the truth, and the life??

then tossing the lies out of the window is a small sacrifice to make for the truth. But then, if you want to keep the lies because 2.7 billion and counting believe it then, I can understand why you will take a pass.

I'm sure most are wondering why I didn't take the pass when you proclaimed our scripture as a mix of lies and truth, but I thought it important to make a few points, and having made them, I see no need to continue discussing scripture with someone who believes our scripture to be lies shared by 2.7 billion people. A shame really, when all Jesus had to do was tell us to wait for the Bahaullah.

I think it easier and more wise to ask the scriptures and see what answers they may hold. Despite what you have told us, God's word is true and scripture, despite the innuendo, allegations, and assertions you thrust upon it, cannot be broken.

Christians were forewarned against those who would attempt to add or subtract from scripture. So throwing them out as "a small sacrifice to make" is one sacrifice Christ never asked us to bear but sounds more like a mark Satan wants us to wear.

Of course, this is a debate forum, and anyone suggesting their doctrines will sound much more plausible if we would just be willing to toss a few scriptures from time to time is free to do so.

As for me, I'll pass.

 

[Soapy]

How many???

Revelation 7:9: "After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands".​

These are many Sons of God @Soapy. They should not be confused with the only begotten Son.


See above


Well, I need your answer in order to further this point - failure to respond would make it appear you are conceding Dimi95's point!

Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am !” (John 8:58)​

I'm not sure what you mean by the word "just", but I'm pretty sure "I AM" means a lot more than you think it means.



How did Jesus become Christ when he's been "eternally the same"?

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hebrews 13:8​

Correct! He is fully Son of Man.



Incorrect! When Lazarus was resurrected, did they dispose of his OLD BODY to give him a new?

If so, please give us a chapter and verse for Lazarus, and a chapter and verse for Jesus.



The Son of Man needs these things. The Son of God does not.



The Father Himself states Jesus is God at Hebrews 1:8, yet there is no God but God. Your Christology needs to account for this.

Can you account for this, or do you agree with the Bahai that Hebrews 1:8 is something to dismiss?




Yes, this was given to the resurrected Son of Man after he successfully completed the mission given to him by the Father. The preincarnate Jesus always had this authority as God, a tempting target and "mission completed" shortcut that Satan encouraged the Son of Man to grasp.




Let me guess: After telling us there is only ONE God, is this where you tell us there are two Gods, one Mighty and one Almighty?



Yes, but as Christians we should not be impressed by these so-called God. These Gods walk about in darkness and will be judged by the only true God:

Psalm 84:

1. God presides in the great assembly; He renders judgment among the “gods”:​

“How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality...​

​

5. ...“The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness;​

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;​

you are all sons of the Most High.’​

7 But you will die like mere mortals;​

you will fall like every other ruler.”​

So it would be better for the judge, commander and even the lion to remain a judge, commander or lion than to consider or make themselves God.

All content below are ‘My Opinions backed up by Scriptural references where applicable’ regardless of how powerfully they are expressed:

In all that you say above, you are wholly mistaken and have taken things out of context to suit the Will of him who commands and directs you… and you know this to be well and true otherwise you would not have written it… all this is just amusement to you and a temptation to those to whom you respond on such manner.

It is clear that ‘I Am’ is not a Name… not even a Title… It is SHORTCUT term in context of the God of Moses and the Israelites describing Himself as being ‘Eternal’.

An eternal Being ‘IS’ and Always ‘WAS’ and always ‘Will Be’… and this is summed up as a short term ‘I Am’ … ‘I Just AM’… ‘I am always what I was, what I am, what I will be’ … ‘Never Changing, A Constant, IMMUTABLE’.

Now, can you say that your Jesus-God is ‘A constant, immutable, always was, is, and will be’?

I pre-answer for you: ‘No, because Jesus changed MANY TIMES in his life… every time it is said that he BECAME, HE WAS GIVEN /GRANTED, WAS MADE TO (Be), DIED, RESURRECTED, ACQUIRED, … WAS BORN… ‘, these are CHANGES… which means ‘MUTABILITY’.

Of all the three Gods of the trinity, which one never changed…. ?

Let me answer for you again: ‘Only the Father never changed … ever! The ‘Person of the So-Called Holy Spirit (which is properly called ‘The Spirit of GOD / The Spirit OF THE FATHER’, was a ‘Wind’, ‘Breath’, ‘Tongues of Fire’, ‘Lanterns’… in fact these are not changes but visualisations equivalent to CHANGES… But, again, the Father: God, is never shown as changed in any way, shape, or form’

So, there is only one constant: The Father. And hence Jesus’ words in reference TO THE FATHER:

• ‘…that it be known to them that Eternal life depends on them believing in YOU [Father], the ONLY TRUE GOD…’

You dismiss the analogies I gave you for ‘GOD’. The word was not used to say ‘Worshipped One’, but rather, ‘MIGHTIEST ONE’, a Superlative Adjective:

• The Judge in his courtroom is the MIGHTIEST person in that courtroom

And so it can be said:

• ‘Our God (YHWH) is GOD OF ALL WHOM ARE CALLED GODS’
• ‘Our MIGHTIEST ONE is MIGHTIER than all WHOM ARE CALLED MIGHTY’
• ‘Our Mighty one, YHWH GOD, … ‘

In the New Testament, because the scriptures are first and foremost concerning the Jewish GOD, the ONE GOD OF THE ISRAELITES, there is no need to NAME THE GOD WHOM IT SPEAKS ABOUT so only the simple title, God, is used. Where there are MULTIPLE REFERENCES to a ‘GOD FIGURE’ there must be a title or a designation (e.g. ‘YHWH God’, ‘God of the Philistines’, ‘The God of this system of things’, etc)

John 1:1:… ‘In the beginning was the word [of the God of the Israelites] and that word, The word of [THE GOD OF THE JEWS], was THE MIGHTIEST WORD’:

• ‘LET THERE BE LIGHT!!’

In the beginning the Mighty Deity created the Heavens and the Earth saying / speaking / uttering the MIGHTIEST WORDS to cause the creation: the BIG BANG!!

That’s what John 1:1 is saying!!

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
Getting a book does not require a preacher, but you have to do what is fair for you Jerry Myers. If you had studied the Trinity, you would know the difference between the Trinity and Modalistic monarchianism and I would not have had to explain the difference here.

Yes, if you had just shown us where in the scripture Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth, then our discussion would have ended a long time ago, BUT you can’t because Jesus NEVER preached man-made doctrine, so, the discussion continues…

Oeste said:
Perhaps you have a book where Jesus preaches the Bahaullah.
If you do it would save a lot of time.

If you can cut off your non-related nonsense statements, it would save a lot of time.

Oeste said:
You've already dismissed the NT as truth and lies, and you also proclaimed to all the readers that your biased preconception is unassailable, and all scripture must be measured against your preconception otherwise it's not really scripture.

As I said, if only you had just shown us where in the scripture Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth, then we all be spared of your ‘run-around’ nonsense.

Oeste said:
The Father refers to Jesus as God and you didn't believe that. I don't think Jesus saying the same would be any different.
No one need marvel at this. You do not believe the NT, so your disbelief in the Trinity is a given.

‘The Father refers to Jesus as God’???? According to who?? Paul’s Hebrew 1:8?? That has been rebutted many times.
Yeah, no need to marvel at Hebrews 1:8 as we know it’s a quotation from Psalm 45:6-7 in which there’s NO “But about the Son he says …..” mentioned in that passage!

Oeste said:
Already explained. There is absolutely one and only one God. There is no division, so why you insist on dividing is beyond me.

You explained your dogmatic belief, not the scripture and that’s why you cannot prove from the scripture Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime! So stop bending yourself into a pretzel trying to tailor-fit your man-made doctrine into the scripture!

Oeste said:
Then why did you attempt to divide our one and only God into threes?

You are confused! I am not trying to divide the One and Only God into threes, I am showing you a ‘3-in-1’ God can be separated/divided into 1, 2, or 3.

Oeste said:
The trinity is a doctrine. The trinity is not a combination of 1+1+1 persons. There is no "addition" in the doctrine of the Trinity.

And a doctrine is a belief or a set of beliefs taught by man (usually a religious group like the church), not by God Almighty! There’s nothing wrong for any faith to have a doctrine, as long as it does not contradict the ABSOLUTE ONENESS of God Almighty.
There’s NO such thing as a ‘3-in-1’ in the ABSOLUTE ONENESS of God Almighty!
You don’t seem to understand what ABSOLUTE ONE mean!

Oeste said:
Each person, as mentioned in the Trinity doctrine (had you ever bothered to read it) is FULLY God by nature. The persons are distinct but not divisible by three. There is no division in the Trinity.
In short, there is no addition or division in Trinity doctrine. There is plenty of it in your comments, but none in the doctrine itself.
God is TRIUNE, not THREE, and the apple, orange, and banana are not one "box".
You can't box the Trinity into your example. It doesn't fit and its not even applicable.
Yes I did, three persons, one God. That is what "Triune" means.
If you had just gotten yourself a book...

Sorry, I only read the scripture, paying special attention to the Words of God Almighty and His prophets. What I found out firstly, is the word ‘trinity’ is NOT even mentioned in the whole Bible. Secondly, the concept of the trinity is NOT even implied (let alone mentioned) by God Almighty nor any of His prophets, particularly Jesus.

So, unless you can prove the trinity came from God Almighty and taught by Jesus in his lifetime, then, whatever you are saying about the trinity is based on what you have been told rather than from God Almighty or His prophet Jesus, meaning your words on the trinity are just nonsense.

If only you had just read and understand the Words of God Almighty and the words of His prophet, Jesus, in your scripture ….

Oeste said:
Probably because you never actually understood what is meant by 'triune'.
"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...". (GENESIS 1:26)

Psalm 86:8-10: "There is none like you among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like yours".
1 Samuel 2:2: "There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God".
Isaiah 46:9–10: "I am God, and there is no other; I am God and there is no one like me"
Isaiah 44:24: "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,"

Wait! Are you implying those verses you quoted above are reference to Jesus???!!

Oeste said:
Since God was all alone, and there are none like God, and there are no works like the work of God, can you explain who is the "us" and "our" at Genesis 1:26?
Please try to give a straight up answer rather than another question you hope might deflect.

Like the way you deflected my questions??
Anyway, back to your question – ‘can you explain who is the "us" and "our" at Genesis 1:26?’

Sure I can!

First, the ‘Image of God’ should be understood spiritually and NOT physically as God is incomparable and beyond the comprehension of the human mind. In other words, you can’t go around saying you look like God or God looks like a man, just because ‘God created man in His image’.

The ‘Image of God' relates to spiritual and moral capacities, such as the ability to reason, create, and engage in relationships.

Since you cannot prove (from the scripture) 'trinity' is a doctrine that came from God Almighty and was preached by Jesus in his lifetime on earth, it's only fair that I give you 2 non-trinitarian takes on the “us” and “our” in Gen. 1:26.

1. The “us” and “our” is a "plural of majesty," a linguistic device used to convey dignity and authority, similar to how monarchs might refer to themselves in the plural, and/or

2. God was addressing a heavenly or a divine council/assembly.

God’s divine council is not new in the OT. Some of the biblical evidence for God having an inner council is very clear.

A few examples of God’s divine council mentioned in the OT:

Psalm 89:5 – “The heavens praised your wonders, LORD, your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones.”.

Psalm 89:7 – “In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him.”.

Job 15:8 – “Do you listen in on God’s council?”.

So, to your question on who is “us” and “our” in Gen. 1:6, it is most likely God Almighty was addressing His council of the holy ones, and He could also be using the "us" and "our" to convey His Dignity and Authority.

Oeste said:
Oh snap! I forgot!! You must forgive me.
Genesis 1:26 goes against this PRESUMPTION you have against scripture.

Oh, snap out of it, Oeste!
What was that presumption I have against Genesis 1:26 again??

Oeste said:
I forgot about that. So it's highly likely you no more believe the scripture you post than the scripture I or anyone else on this forum posts in response. In fact, no reader can know the truth of any scriptural posted as it is all subject to this prior presumption and your personal seal of validity. For some unknown reason, this cannot be done in advance, but only on a case by case basis after the scripture is posted.

What gibberish nonsense are you ‘spitting’ here???

But you are right you forgot you are the one who cannot support anything you said with the Words of God Almighty and the words of His prophet Jesus, other than telling us what you have been told and showing verses from the NT which are easily rebut!!

Oeste said:
Which makes any further conversation with you pointless. I asked where we might find your single source of truth since you told us our bibles are not reliable. You have posted nothing of the sort but expect us to post while we await your decree.

What ‘single source of truth’ are you talking about??!! I may not have said it directly, BUT surely I have implied many times that the single source of truth comes from the Words of God Almighty and His prophets, and in this discussion, the words of Jesus!! Else why would I ask you many time to support your claims by showing, from the scripture, that God Almighty and His prophet Jesus had said or implied so.

It’s NOT just about whether the Bibles are reliable, It’s also whether your source of truth is reliable or not! From the nonsense you have been churning out like ‘crowd’ size 2 billion and counting, I can tell you right now, your ‘source of truth’ IS NOT reliable.

Oeste said:
Once again, the only way you can make a point with any veracity is to throw a few scriptures out the window.
I'll pass.

Told you I understand why you want a pass and that’s because you want to continue living with the lies. Hey, it's your choice!

Oeste said:
Why bother?

Right, why bother indeed, when you have made up your mind to live with the lies. Told you I understand.

Oeste said:
Again, it was affirmed by the Father at Hebrews 1:8, which you consider, like most NT verses, to be highly suspect, corrupt, or gibberish.

Again, Hebrews 1:8 has already been rebut. You can check on my previous comments on that.
Go find another verse to support your ‘Jesus is God’ claim.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
Of course! We should have traded "man's authority" for the authority of Jerry Myers and the Bahaullah! Why did Christians jump the gun (or bow) when they could have simply waited a few hundred years for "the truth"?

Well, Jerry Myers is also a man! You thought I am a prophet of God like Jesus?? Why, Oeste, you are making me blush, I never knew you thought I have the authority of a prophet!!

Oeste said:
You know, like when Christ told us HE was the way, the truth, and the life??

Well, isn’t that why God sent prophets from time to time, but to be the way, the truth and the life to the people they are sent to??

Just as Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life to the people in his lifetime on earth, so were Abraham, Noah, Moses the way, the truth, and the life to the people in their respective lifetime. Do you know of any other person who can show the people of their respective times the right path to God Almighty??

Oeste said:
I'm sure most are wondering why I didn't take the pass when you proclaimed our scripture as a mix of lies and truth, but I thought it important to make a few points, and having made them, I see no need to continue discussing scripture with someone who believes our scripture to be lies shared by 2.7 billion people. A shame really, when all Jesus had to do was tell us to wait for the Bahaullah.

Don’t think Jesus can tell you to wait for Bahaullah as he has never heard of Bahaullah, just as he had never heard of trinity. Bahaullah was born in 1817, lonnnnnng after Jesus has departed. See what I mean when I said most of your comments are gibberish nonsense.

Oeste said:
I think it easier and more wise to ask the scriptures and see what answers they may hold. Despite what you have told us, God's word is true and scripture, despite the innuendo, allegations, and assertions you thrust upon it, cannot be broken.

Yes, it’s wiser to ask the scriptures, so ask the scripture whether Jesus ever preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth?? Tell me what the scripture said about that in your next comment, ok?

Oeste said:
Christians were forewarned against those who would attempt to add or subtract from scripture. So throwing them out as "a small sacrifice to make" is one sacrifice Christ never asked us to bear but sounds more like a mark Satan wants us to wear.

Speaking of ‘forewarned’, didn’t Jesus forewarn his disciples of deceivers and impostors who will come after he’s gone claiming they are the Messiah/Christ?? There’s no record in the Bible of anyone else who came after Jesus was gone claiming he’s the Messiah/Christ EXCEPT that ‘Jesus’ whom Paul met on that wilderness road to Damascus.

Hmmmmm…. Sounds more like, as forewarned by Jesus, Paul met Satan in the guise of a bright light, claiming to be Jesus!!

 

[Oeste]

In all that you say above, you are wholly mistaken and have taken things out of context to suit the Will of him who commands and directs you… and you know this to be well and true otherwise you would not have written it…

Thank you Soapy! As Christians we all try to follow our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as best we can.

all this is just amusement to you and a temptation to those to whom you respond on such manner.

Well I must say I do enjoy some of the conversations here. If others are tempted to respond in kind then it's all very good.

It is clear that ‘I Am’ is not a Name… not even a Title… It is SHORTCUT term in context of the God of Moses and the Israelites describing Himself as being ‘Eternal’.

However the reader slices and dices it, Jesus clearly ascribes "I AM" to himself.

Now, can you say that your Jesus-God is ‘A constant, immutable, always was, is, and will be’

Of course!
Not only I but over two and a half billion others.

So Jesus says he's God, the "I Am", a term the Jews immediately recognized as spoken to Moses, and the Father says Jesus is God at Hebrews 1:8. One really can't ask for better.

Of all the three Gods of the trinity, which one never changed…. ?

Your confused as there are no three Gods in the trinity.

I recommend you read a good book on the trinity. The teaching is very clear...there is only one God.

‘…that it be known to them that Eternal life depends on them believing in YOU [Father], the ONLY TRUE GOD…’

Oh c'mon Soapy! We all know you didn't post the entire verse here, and either conveniently or deceptively left out the end. How does that ending go? Oh yeah.... "...AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent".

The Son of God is "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow." (Hebrews 13:8) He is, as you clearly state, ETERNALLY THE SAME!!

So, there is only one constant: The Father. And hence Jesus’ words in reference TO THE FATHER:

The Son of God is "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow." (Hebrews 13:8) He is, as you clearly state, ETERNALLY THE SAME!!

Why have you dismissed this verse?

‘Our God (YHWH) is GOD OF ALL WHOM ARE CALLED GODS’

Then there is but one true God.

Look, I appreciate the fact you believe there are other Gods and that the judge is actually God in the courtroom. I don't happen to believe that. God is always God no matter where I am, so there will always be someone mightier than anything man can make or create.

As a Christian, there are no other Gods but God. Scripture is very clear on this. We have no other so-called Gods, so while you can certainly claim as many Gods as you wish, for the Christian there will always be but one God. This holds true regardless of the judge or emperor.

 

[Oeste]

Yes, if you had just shown us where in the scripture Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth, then our discussion would have ended a long time ago,

The actual, pertinent, discussion surrounding this topic did end long ago. As I pointed out, the vast majority of Christians believe Jesus is God, not that Jesus is not God.

The thread theme is Jesus is not God. It's up to those who agree with the OP to evidence this, otherwise it's simply unsupported opinion or conjecture.

This thread was never about the trinity Jerry Myers.

BUT you can’t because Jesus NEVER preached man-made doctrine, so, the discussion continues…

The discussion pretty much ended when you claimed the NT and a good chunk of the OT were a mixture of truth and lies and while I have no problem continuing the discussion, the issue itself, as far as the Christian church is concerned, is settled.

If you can cut off your non-related nonsense statements, it would save a lot of time.

I think it's pretty obvious you have been heavily influenced by the Bahaullah.

You have yet to disclose exactly which scriptures you think true and which lies. All you can tell us is that you have a preconceived notion, and if the scripture you are reading does not meet the standard of the preconceived notion, then you toss it out.

So all of scripture is subject to your personal interpretation, and no one here has the slightest idea of how you may have interpreted a particular passage, because no one here can read your mind. This is why I asked for your single source of truth.

If you don't have one, just say so. You could have multiple for all I care. But I'm not going to start posting scripture with you as it would be a waste of time.

‘The Father refers to Jesus as God’???? According to who?? Paul’s Hebrew 1:8?? That has been rebutted many times.

No, you dismissed it. You rebutted nothing.

Yeah, no need to marvel at Hebrews 1:8 as we know it’s a quotation from Psalm 45:6-7 in which there’s NO “But about the Son he says …..” mentioned in that passage!

What has that got to do with anything when it's all scripture?

Unless you are willing to subject yourself or accept our canon as scripture...AND I'M NOT REFERRING JUST TO THE PARTS YOU LIKE... then what is the point of further discussion?

If you have an opinion that is supported or been peered reviewed, then yes! Please point it out to the readers and include your source here. Lacking this, while there may be agnostics and atheists who cheer your aberrant reading, there is no Christian church to support it. It's all your based on your say-so, and for some reason, you believe this outweighs that of the historic church.

At the end of the day, the Christian world will still be Trinitarian, and you will be tossing out scripture, right along with the atheists, skeptics, and non-believers.

As such, since you toss out our scripture as "gibberish", do not marvel if the Christians here do the same with your posts.*

Wait! Are you implying those verses you quoted above are reference to Jesus???!

Get a good Trinity book. You'll see exactly what I'm stating and you won't have to guess.

*Edit

 

[Oeste]

Anyway, back to your question – ‘can you explain who is the "us" and "our" at Genesis 1:26?’

Sure I can!

Well, here we go!

First, the ‘Image of God’ should be understood spiritually and NOT physically as God is incomparable and beyond the comprehension of the human mind. In other words, you can’t go around saying you look like God or God looks like a man, just because ‘God created man in His image’.

I can understand this line of reasoning. Go on...

Since you cannot prove (from the scripture) 'trinity' is a doctrine that came from God Almighty and was preached by Jesus in his lifetime on earth, it's only fair that I give you 2 non-trinitarian takes on the “us” and “our” in Gen. 1:26.

I think that ship has sailed Jerry Myers. 2.5 billion people, based in scripture despite your claims to the contrary. Maybe this is what will change everyone around?

1. The “us” and “our” is a "plural of majesty," a linguistic device used to convey dignity and authority, similar to how monarchs might refer to themselves in the plural, and/or

Okay, but this simply supports the Trinity.

But first, let me say there is nothing in the Trinity that says God is without dignity and authority.

Second, let's remember that when God created the heavens and the earth, He created it alone:

Isaiah 44:24: "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,"

You claim God is singular, the Father only. So in effect, the Father is talking to Himself.

This would be a behavior signifying He is lonely, which I deem highly unlikely.

2. God was addressing a heavenly or a divine council/assembly.

A divine assembly?

Did you read Genesis 1:26 and forget already?? Let's read it again:

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...". (GENESIS 1:26)

If He is addressing a divine assembly, then this divine assembly is helping God make man!

Well, we know that is nonsense, because Genesis 1:1, tells us right up front who our creator was:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...​

No mention of a "divine assembly" doing any "creating" here.

So what about Job 38:7?

All that tells us is that the angels joyfully sang. These ministering spirits witnesses God's work, but they had no hand in creation. That was done by God, alone!

So, to your question on who is “us” and “our” in Gen. 1:6, it is most likely God Almighty was addressing His council of the holy ones, and He could also be using the "us" and "our" to convey His Dignity and Authority.

I don't think so, as scripture says otherwise. Had you simply gone to the library and pulled out a good book on the Trinity, you would have know beforehand and I would not have had to post this.

But this points back to the problem I mentioned earlier. No one reading Genesis 1:26 would have thought you believed it to be a "true" bible verse as which verses are true or false are all stored in your head.

However, I am glad you believe Genesis 1:26 to be authentic scripture.

Oeste said:
Oh snap! I forgot!! You must forgive me.
Genesis 1:26 goes against this PRESUMPTION you have against scripture.

Oh, snap out of it, Oeste!
What was that presumption I have against Genesis 1:26 again??

Well I'm pleasantly surprised you decided this "presumption" didn't apply to Genesis 1:26. I was able to make good use of it. However I see no purpose in proceeding with other bible verses until you go through and let us know which scriptures are valid or not. I may not even then, as I'd like to see a valid basis to apply such an aberrant and ill advised presumption.

It after 2am and I need some shut-eye.

Have a good morning everyone! I'll be dragging big time tomorrow.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
The actual, pertinent, discussion surrounding this topic did end long ago. As I pointed out, the vast majority of Christians believe Jesus is God, not that Jesus is not God.

The majority of Christians believe Jesus is God does not verify Jesus is God, it simply means the majority of Christians accept the belief Jesus is God.
The Christians are only made up of about 34% of the world's population, which means 66% of the world's population DO NOT believe or care Jesus is God. Based on the logic of your understanding, do you accept that Jesus is NOT God as the vast majority of the world population does not believe Jesus is God??

Oeste said:
The thread theme is Jesus is not God. It's up to those who agree with the OP to evidence this, otherwise it's simply unsupported opinion or conjecture.
This thread was never about the trinity Jerry Myers.

OK, so since you said this thread was never about the trinity then, what are you doing in this thread??

Oeste said:
The discussion pretty much ended when you claimed the NT and a good chunk of the OT were a mixture of truth and lies and while I have no problem continuing the discussion, the issue itself, as far as the Christian church is concerned, is settled.

Not really, the discussion pretty much ended because you thought this thread was never about the trinity. The issue will never be settled as long as you try to avoid the basic question – did Jesus preach the trinity in his lifetime on earth?

If you do not have an answer, just say so – nothing to be ashamed of that.

Oeste said:
I think it's pretty obvious you have been heavily influenced by the Bahaullah.

I think it's pretty obvious you have an obsession with Bahaullah.

Oeste said:
You have yet to disclose exactly which scriptures you think true and which lies. All you can tell us is that you have a preconceived notion, and if the scripture you are reading does not meet the standard of the preconceived notion, then you toss it out.
So all of scripture is subject to your personal interpretation, and no one here has the slightest idea of how you may have interpreted a particular passage, because no one here can read your mind. This is why I asked for your single source of truth.

How many times must I tell you???
Any passage that DO NOT CONTRADICT what God Almighty already DECLARED OF HIMSELF, and of what Jesus already said of himself, can be accepted as true. Which part of that statement did you find so difficult to comprehend??

Oeste said:
If you don't have one, just say so. You could have multiple for all I care. But I'm not going to start posting scripture with you as it would be a waste of time.

Like you don’t have an answer to this one – can you show me from the scripture that Jesus preached trinity in his lifetime on earth?? If you don't have one, just say so. You could have multiple for all I care.

Oeste said:
No, you dismissed it. You rebutted nothing.

Doubt you understand the difference between “dismiss” and “rebut”.

When someone dismisses an argument or a statement, they are essentially rejecting it without any consideration nor do they have any logical explanation or evidence, they just disregard the argument – which is exactly what you have been doing most of the time.

A good example is how you respond to my request to show from the scripture where Jesus preached trinity in his lifetime on earth. You can check that by reviewing your comments on that matter.

When someone rebuts an argument, they are actively engaging with it and providing counterarguments or evidence to support their counterarguments – which is what I have been doing most of the time.

A good example is how I explained to you how the Jews have mistaken Jesus’ statement “I and my Father are one” as his claim of being God. You can check that by reviewing my comments on that matter.

Simply put, dismissing means rejecting an argument without seriously engaging with it, and taking the readers on ‘run-arounds' explanations, while rebutting involves actively challenging with counter evidence or reasoning against it.

Oeste said:
What has that got to do with anything when it's all scripture?

How about everything…??

Oeste said:
Unless you are willing to subject yourself or accept our canon as scripture...AND I'M NOT REFERRING JUST TO THE PARTS YOU LIKE... then what is the point of further discussion?

Now, why would I do that when you can’t even support what you believe other than giving us the 'round-arounds' and/or showing verses from the scripture that you cannot even explain??

Oeste said:
At the end of the day, the Christian world will still be Trinitarian, and you will be tossing out scripture, right along with the atheists, skeptics, and non-believers.

And that was supposed to make the Trinitarians right????! LOL!

Oeste said:
As such, since you toss out our scripture as "gibberish", do not marvel if the Christians here do the same.

What’s there to marvel??

Oeste said:
Get a good Trinity book. You'll see exactly what I'm stating and you won't have to guess.

I told you I will get a good trinity book when you can show me from the scripture Jesus preached trinity in his lifetime on earth.
Are you having problems with memory retention?? You seem to forget easily.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
I think that ship has sailed Jerry Myers. 2.5 billion people, based in scripture despite your claims to the contrary. Maybe this is what will change everyone around?

The ship has never left the port, Oeste. How could it sail away when you cannot even support your Trinitarian belief??

2.5 billion people represent only 34% of the world population, Oeste. Don’t disregard the other 66%.
If 'crowd size' is your yardstick to verify the truth, then the Trinitarians are delusional in their belief.

Oeste said:
Okay, but this simply supports the Trinity.

I can understand why you would say that especially when that is coming from someone whose dogmatic belief exceed his ability to think logically.

Oeste said:
But first, let me say there is nothing in the Trinity that says God is without dignity and authority.

Are you referring to the 3 persons in the trinity?? Go on….

Oeste said:
Second, let's remember that when God created the heavens and the earth, He created it alone:
Isaiah 44:24: "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,"

Did I say anything differently??

Oeste said:
You claim God is singular, the Father only. So in effect, the Father is talking to Himself.

You mean like when your God prays to himself??

Oeste said:
A divine assembly?
Did you read Genesis 1:26 and forget already?? Let's read it again:
"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...". (GENESIS 1:26)
If He is addressing a divine assembly, then this divine assembly is helping God make man!
Well, we know that is nonsense, because Genesis 1:1, tells us right up front who our creator was: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...
No mention of a "divine assembly" doing any "creating" here.

You asked me to explain the “us” and “our” in Gen. 1:26 and that’s what I did.
Did I say anything of the ‘divine assembly’ doing any ‘creating’??

Oeste said:
So what about Job 38:7?
All that tells us is that the angels joyfully sang. These ministering spirits witnesses God's work, but they had no hand in creation. That was done by God, alone!

Did I bring up Job 38:7 here???? Get your facts right else you are just wasting my time!

Oeste said:
I don't think so, as scripture says otherwise. Had you simply gone to the library and pulled out a good book on the Trinity, you would have know beforehand and I would not have had to post this.

I told you again and again I will get a good book on trinity when you can show me Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth. So, stop avoiding that by shifting the focus from ‘show me Jesus preached the trinity…’ to ‘get a good book on the trinity…’ run-arounds.

Oeste said:
But this points back to the problem I mentioned earlier. No one reading Genesis 1:26 would have thought you believed it to be a "true" bible verse as which verses are true or false are all stored in your head.
However, I am glad you believe Genesis 1:26 to be authentic scripture.

You think Genesis 1:26 contradicted what God Almighty has declared of who He is in the OT??? If NO, then why should I have problems with Gen. 1:26??

Oeste said:
Oh snap! I forgot!! You must forgive me.
Genesis 1:26 goes against this PRESUMPTION you have against scripture.
Well I'm pleasantly surprised you decided this "presumption" didn't apply to Genesis 1:26. I was able to make good use of it.

Oh, snap out of it, Oeste... what was that presumption I have against Genesis 1:26 again??

Oeste said:
However I see no purpose in proceeding with other bible verses until you go through and let us know which scriptures are valid or not. I may not even then, as I'd like to see a valid basis to apply such an aberrant and ill advised presumption.

You sure have a very short memory. Are you in your 70s or 80s?

Let me say it again - Any passage that DO NOT CONTRADICT what God Almighty already DECLARED OF HIMSELF, and of what Jesus already said of himself, can be accepted as true.

That’s how you know whether any passage in the scripture is suspected!!!

Now, repeat that every day so that you can remember!!

 

[Oeste]

Oeste said:
The actual, pertinent, discussion surrounding this topic did end long ago. As I pointed out, the vast majority of Christians believe Jesus is God, not that Jesus is not God.

The majority of Christians believe Jesus is God does not verify Jesus is God, it simply means the majority of Christians accept the belief Jesus is God.

The minority of Christians who believe Jesus is not God does not verify Jesus is not God, it simply means a minority of Christians accept the belief Jesus is not God.

The Christians are only made up of about 34% of the world's population, which means 66% of the world's population DO NOT believe or care Jesus is God.

Ok, go on...

Based on the logic of your understanding, do you accept that Jesus is NOT God as the vast majority of the world population does not believe Jesus is God??

That is not "the logic of my understanding". My understanding is not based on non-believers, it is base on scripture.

JESUS IS GOD for the vast majority of Christians who hold the biblical cannon as true.

You, on the other hand, hold some part true and some parts false. Which is which is held only in the mind of Jerry Myers, making further discussion regarding scripture pointless.

Oeste said:
The thread theme is Jesus is not God. It's up to those who agree with the OP to evidence this, otherwise it's simply unsupported opinion or conjecture.
This thread was never about the trinity Jerry Myers.

OK, so since you said this thread was never about the trinity then, what are you doing in this thread??

???
This is the biblical debates forum, not the non-Trinitarian forum. If the OP did not want trinitarians to post here, they would have selected another forum.

Oeste said:
The discussion pretty much ended when you claimed the NT and a good chunk of the OT were a mixture of truth and lies and while I have no problem continuing the discussion, the issue itself, as far as the Christian church is concerned, is settled.

Not really,

Yes, really. Trinitarians vastly outnumber non-Trinitarians in the church, so the issue is settled. Non-Trinitarians have there own churches, but compared to the church as a whole, they are relatively small in number.

the discussion pretty much ended because you thought this thread was never about the trinity. The issue will never be settled as long as you try to avoid the basic question – did Jesus preach the trinity in his lifetime on earth?

I've already posted my reasoning to bible believing Christians. When I point out scriptures they take it seriously rather than simply dismiss them based on a preconceived notion subject to a self-developed criteria.

Post the scripture you think authentic Jerry Myers.

If you do not have an answer, just say so – nothing to be ashamed of that.

See my answer above.

Oeste said:
I think it's pretty obvious you have been heavily influenced by the Bahaullah.

I think it's pretty obvious you have an obsession with Bahaullah.

The Bahaullah? I really don't have the time.