Jesus was Myth

[Renji]

Early historians (eg. Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus) and records suggest otherwise.... read more here: Who Was the Historical Jesus | Christianity | LiveScience

The case of "divinity" however would be a different thing.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

:biglaugh:

Now that was funny!
​

Thanks. Sometimes when I get bored, I make jokes.

But I really do wish someone, anyone, would at least attempt to make a case for the historical Jesus. Why not at least try?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

What have you studied? Can you read Greek, Latin, Hebrew, or other ancient languages? What sources have you ever cited other than your "scholar of the heart" observations followed by questions about whether or not Paul used Jesus' name? You have claimed over and over again that your basis for knowledge of the ancient world is your own modern subjective observations (and added to that a pathetically inadequate knowledge of psychology research).

Jeez. Call me if you ever want to debate the (non)historical Jesus, Legion.

I will be glad to help you understand the most likely reality as to what happened back then. (No 30 CE Jesus.)

 

[nash8]

Jeez. Call me if you ever want to debate the (non)historical Jesus, Legion.

I will be glad to help you understand the most likely reality as to what happened back then. (No 30 CE Jesus.)

I would like to know the mot likely reality as to what happened back then. No debate, just explain to me what happen, with regards to the formation of the religion that we know as Christianity.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I would like to know the mot likely reality as to what happened back then. No debate, just explain to me what happen, with regards to the formation of the religion that we know as Christianity.

Thanks for asking, Nash. I can only tell you my personal opinion as to the most likely reality, of course. I am not possessed of absolute knowledge.

I think there was lots of religious fervor centered around the old godman stories. It seems to me that the Asia Minor churches were already forming up previous to 30 CE and that someone (let's call him Mark) came up with the idea of claiming that an actual man, a Jewish messiah, had lived in 30 CE Jerusalem. An outlandish claim, but it seems to have worked. Others began to refine the story (let's call them Matthew and Luke). They revised Mark's story, including whole chunks of verbatim stuff. Many others did the same over the years, although writing them without copying from the others, with gJohn being selected for the canon along with the other three.

Paul wrote before he heard of the historical Jesus claims.

Just my best guess right now. You're welcome to try and convince me in a different direction.

 

[outhouse]

I would like to know the mot likely reality as to what happened back then. No debate, just explain to me what happen, with regards to the formation of the religion that we know as Christianity.

A Galilean who is very unhappy about the Roman oppression and he shows up to Passover. He knows the temple is corrupt under its Hellenistic governement milking cash from the common man, he notices the official temple currency has a pagan deity Melqart, so everyone worshipping in gods house was required to have and use blasphemous coins. Besides his demonstration upon entry riding a female donkey mocking Pilate, he does another demonstration trying to start a riot over the coins and corruption in gods very own house. Pilate and Caiaphas only wanted peace and nothing more, so a Galilean trouble maker is beaten and placed on a cross. Pilate had a hatred for Galileans and their defiance of Roman rule.

With 400,000 ish attendants, the man was martyred and oral traditions began of his sacrificing his life for the comon man. Mythology grew with time, and instead of growing in Judaism, it grew in Hellenism, and the Proselytes who found the one god concept appealing. Within a few Decades one such Hellenist starts writing from the Diaspora, Paul. Decades later other Hellenist writing to a Roman audience starting recoding their version as the movement for a long time, had been moving as far away as it could from the Judaism.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thanks. Sometimes when I get bored, I make jokes.

But I really do wish someone, anyone, would at least attempt to make a case for the historical Jesus. Why not at least try?

You're not prepared to listen.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

You're not prepared to listen.

More insult in place of actual argumentation, as I've come to expect.

What is so scary about putting up your case for an historical Jesus?

 

[arthra]

Well I have no doubt that earlier Mediterranean religion influenced Christianity as it spread across the roman world...but it obstructed and clouded over the teachings of Jesus.. Yes the legend became greater than life and became the corpus of Christianity.

There are several reasons Jesus did not figure into archives ... He wasn't the leader of a rebellion against Rome..that was bar kochbar. He was overlooked for the most part by Josephus a court historian.. He left no writings...still His teachings survived in fragmentary form in verbal traditions that later appeared later in the gospels..We don't have preserved his teachings in their original language. With the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce and the subsequent diaspora of Jewish people there wasn't much likelihood records would have been preserved.

Still there has been an influence over centuries of time that has outlasted Appolonius of Tyana and the Caesars..

 

[outhouse]

He wasn't the leader of a rebellion against Rome..that was bar kochbar.

We dont know exactly what happened in the temple, as sedition, it was sort of a failed rebellion against Roman and temple authorities.

Still there has been an influence over centuries of time that has outlasted Appolonius of Tyana and the Caesars

We are not positive that Appolonius did not influence the Jesus legends instead of the other way around.

 

[nash8]

Thanks for asking, Nash. I can only tell you my personal opinion as to the most likely reality, of course. I am not possessed of absolute knowledge.

I think there was lots of religious fervor centered around the old godman stories. It seems to me that the Asia Minor churches were already forming up previous to 30 CE and that someone (let's call him Mark) came up with the idea of claiming that an actual man, a Jewish messiah, had lived in 30 CE Jerusalem. An outlandish claim, but it seems to have worked. Others began to refine the story (let's call them Matthew and Luke). They revised Mark's story, including whole chunks of verbatim stuff. Many others did the same over the years, although writing them without copying from the others, with gJohn being selected for the canon along with the other three.

Paul wrote before he heard of the historical Jesus claims.

Just my best guess right now. You're welcome to try and convince me in a different direction.

1.Who was the central figure in these Asia Minor churches?
2. How long after 30 C.E did Mark write this story?
3. What made "Christianity" catch on so fervently, as opposed to other godman cults that were already established and popular within the region?
4. What Where did the specific stories about Jesus' life come from? Were they strictly fictional creation or did they have some basis in history?
5. What was the creator of this religion (Mark's) purpose in creating this religion?
6. What did he seek to accomplish in creating this religion?
7. Where did the idea of sacrifice for other's sins come from?

 

[nash8]

We dont know exactly what happened in the temple, as sedition, it was sort of a failed rebellion against Roman and temple authorities.

Would you consider the civil rights movement a rebillion?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thanks. Sometimes when I get bored, I make jokes.

But I really do wish someone, anyone, would at least attempt to make a case for the historical Jesus. Why not at least try?

You're not prepared to listen.

More insult in place of actual argumentation, as I've come to expect.

No. It's an observation (or, if you prefer, an evaluation).

What is so scary about putting up your case for an historical Jesus?

A couple of points:

• Chanting 'scaredy-pants scaredy-pants' is more than a little childish.
• I have addressed the 'Historical Jesus' question innumerable times in this forum and others. I honestly see zero value in wasting my time on you.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

No. It's an observation (or, if you prefer, an evaluation).

OK. And it's no insult for me to observe that you apparently know nothing about the historical Jesus or else you'd actually discuss the historical Jesus -- rather than posting personal insult.

I'm sorry but I'm just not willing to waste my time with you. But let me know if you ever feel ready to join the debate.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

1.Who was the central figure in these Asia Minor churches?

Beats me. Could've been most anyone. Theology develops in all sorts of ways.

2. How long after 30 C.E did Mark write this story?

Most people claim about 40 years, I think. Imagine if I sat down right now and wrote a story about a godman who walked the streets of NYC in 1973. He did many miracles and was killed by the NYPD, urged to it by a jealous competing sect.

Even now, even in modern times, my story could flourish. Imagine anyone trying to stop such a tale 2000 years ago.

3. What made "Christianity" catch on so fervently, as opposed to other godman cults that were already established and popular within the region?

Already answered. The claim that he was historical.

4. What Where did the specific stories about Jesus' life come from? Were they strictly fictional creation or did they have some basis in history?

Who knows. The question really doesn't make clear sense to a fiction writer. Virtually all characters in fiction are 'inspired by.'

What was the creator of this religion (Mark's) purpose in creating this religion?

He probably didn't think he was creating a religion. He was just writing a story. But it's possible that he was up to something, trying to gain some kind of power. What was Joseph Smith's purpose in creating a new religion?

7. Where did the idea of sacrifice for other's sins come from?

Are you familiar with the Bible? Do you know the story of Abraham and Isaac?

Sacrifice has been practiced by very many cultures, from the ancient Jews to the Aztecs to modern Santerias. Sacrificing a godman -- in order to appease his godfather and thereby save us for eternity -- is just another riff on that.

 

[roger1440]

1.Who was the central figure in these Asia Minor churches?
2. How long after 30 C.E did Mark write this story?
3. What made "Christianity" catch on so fervently, as opposed to other godman cults that were already established and popular within the region?
4. What Where did the specific stories about Jesus' life come from? Were they strictly fictional creation or did they have some basis in history?
5. What was the creator of this religion (Mark's) purpose in creating this religion?
6. What did he seek to accomplish in creating this religion?
7. Where did the idea of sacrifice for other's sins come from?

I’ll attempt to answer some of your questions. You are assuming there was a “central figure in these Asia Minor churches”. Aside from that, what century are you referring too? Christianity was much more diverse in the early centuries then it is today. During the first few centuries Christianity was a cluster of independent churches. The First Council of Nicaea convened in the year 325. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea , Its purpose was for ALL the churches to come to an agreement on beliefs. The goal was to make the church universal. Once the smoke had cleared, the Catholic Church was born. The Greek word catholic means universal. The earliest known list of all 27 books of the New Testament was made in the year 365. Keep in mind these events happened over 300 years after Jesus’s death.

 

[Penumbra]

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[steeltoes]

1.Who was the central figure in these Asia Minor churches?
2. How long after 30 C.E did Mark write this story?
3. What made "Christianity" catch on so fervently, as opposed to other godman cults that were already established and popular within the region?
4. What Where did the specific stories about Jesus' life come from? Were they strictly fictional creation or did they have some basis in history?
5. What was the creator of this religion (Mark's) purpose in creating this religion?
6. What did he seek to accomplish in creating this religion?
7. Where did the idea of sacrifice for other's sins come from?

Did Christianity catch on so fervently, it seems to have caught on a bit in the second century, but nothing ironclad until the 4th?

Who knows where the stories came from?

Whether fictionally created or having had a basis in history appears to be a matter up for debate with no end in sight.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Even now, even in modern times, my story could flourish. Imagine anyone trying to stop such a tale 2000 years ago.

We don't have to. As was pointed out by numerous scholars over the years but in particular (since he is one of many who is an ancient historian and not a biblical scholar) Michael Grant points out in the appendix to his book on Jesus that the same kind of legends grew up around other historical figures before and after Jesus. Alexander the Great, Caesar, through the medieval period to various 20th century godmen like Haile Selassie or those mentioned in Jenkins' Mystics and Messiahs: Cults and New Religions in American History. Octavian was divi filius or Son of God. The biographer Diogenes Laertius tells us that Plato's father Ariston couldn't impregnate his mother, and so Apollo did so. Heck, Alexander the Great wasn't just a divine son of god, he somehow had multiple divine fathers: Ammon & Zeus. While his successors claimed the same, Augustus was apprently contend with just "son of God"/theou huios. A fragment that predates Jesus concerns one Empodecles, "mortal no more but immortal god". I can't recall if Pythagoras was more than just a miracle worker, but Asclepius was definitely not only a miracle healer but a divine one. Livy denies the mythic Romulus and Remus, raised by wolves according to received myth. Instead, he says that they were both historical and it was their adopted parents' name that was the problem, as too close to lupos or "wolf". Divine Caesar in the same Greek of the NT was referred to as theos or god, rather than simply divus Iulius. The Emperors of Egypt, Japan, and multiple other places were also gods. Ching's "Son of Heaven: Sacral kinship in Ancient China" shows how far and wide godmen and divine historical figures were, from the Homeric heroes to Plato to the Rastafarian messiah, we don't have to imagine. It's all there. Divine historical people and historical wonder-workers, witches, magicians, cunning-folk, wise-ones/wizards, magi, etc., are among the most documented historical individuals we know of (granted, much of this has to do with the witch-trials and emperors, but those like Alexander who were praised as divine sons of god were written about after they died and although they were historical divine godmen we have less evidence than for Jesus. Some, like Empedocles, exist in fragments, others like Plato exist in their own writings as well as many others but they became sons of god centuries later.

And nobody really cared.

Then the author of Mark writes a text about that situates the Christ-God Jesus of Paul in a real place and time, and all of a sudden the pagan community, who didn't much care for the Jewish community and hated the Christians, and who had several centuries of historical godmen and divine figures as well as historical miracle-workers (two at least we know of as contemporaries of Jesus), all of these pagans suddenly opened their eyes and fell to the ground in awe: here was another rehash of, as Celsus tells us, of so many others and from a hated group, that this historical Jesus story "caught fire" and spread throughout the land (mostly by active persecution, feeding followers to lions, torturing them, mocking them in writing, etc.) and was welcomed because somebody had finally rehashed what had already been done over and over only this time it had a Jewish context! And we all know how much the pagans envied and aspired to be Jewish, given that they mocked them and destroyed their temple and then kicked them out of the homeland (as had been done before).

Already answered. The claim that he was historical.

And the various others who were said to be gods and historical were not turned into Jewish messiahs nor did their stories "catch fire" because...?

Who knows. The question really doesn't make clear sense to a fiction writer. Virtually all characters in fiction are 'inspired by.'

Given the references to scripture in an attempt to make it appear as if the messiah was supposed to be something other than what was expected, I'd say it's pretty clear that the innumerable references to Jewish scripture and the very word "Christ" gives us a pretty good idea.

He probably didn't think he was creating a religion. He was just writing a story.

Like so many had done before. Only despite the fact that they had historical godmen too, and we generally refer to them as "ancient historians".

But it's possible that he was up to something, trying to gain some kind of power. What was Joseph Smith's purpose in creating a new religion?

Apparently being an anonymous author whom nobody knows of and who did something already done before that nobody particularly cared for and who had no following whatsoever.

Are you familiar with the Bible? Do you know the story of Abraham and Isaac?

The one in which no one is sacrificed has nothing to do with sins? Yes I do.

Sacrifice has been practiced by very many cultures, from the ancient Jews to the Aztecs to modern Santerias.

Huh. I didn't realize that the Aztec mass slaughter of other tribes which including cutting the hearts out of conquered warriors and burning and/or eating them was about sin. Which godman or godmen did the Aztecs sacrifice?

Sacrificing a godman -- in order to appease his godfather and thereby save us for eternity -- is just another riff on that.

Ah. Like Attis! Oh wait. That version in which he dies and rises postdates Christianity. Or Mithras! Oh wait. Again the savior version postdates the gospels and no resurrection.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

And the various others who were said to be gods and historical were not turned into Jewish messiahs nor did their stories "catch fire" because...?

Could be a thousand reasons. History is, alas, not physics. It's chaotic, unpredictable. A person or event or idea might be ignored 99 times, while on the 100th time, it may rampage though the human heart and imagination.

But I would say that the major difference between Alex/Caesar and Jesus is that Alex/Caesar were probably historical figures, certainly powerful political figures, while Jesus was a lowly Galilean preacher. That's a lot sexier. Also, I don't believe that Alex/Caesar were ever associated with the Jewish messiah.

Huh. I didn't realize that the Aztec mass slaughter of other tribes which including cutting the hearts out of conquered warriors and burning and/or eating them was about sin. Which godman or godmen did the Aztecs sacrifice?

Huh? Why do you think that Aztec sacrifices had anything to do with godmen? Or with sin, for that matter? Have you read about them?