Jewish Messiah

[YoursTrue]

You are neglecting the fact that Deut 17:8-13, which establishes the God given authority of the Levites and Rabbis (Judges) to interpret the law.

Yet there are many interpretations by the various sects of Judaism, aren't there? Some synagogues have female rabbis, for instance. Is there anything in the Oral Law that you know about that comments on this?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yet there are many interpretations by the various sects of Judaism, aren't there? Some synagogues have female rabbis, for instance. Is there anything in the Oral Law that you know about that comments on this?

Correct. Each movement in Judaism has their own approach to Halakah (Jewish law). For example, Orthodox Judaism views Halakha as unchanging, whereas Conservative and Reform Judaism view Halakha as changing.

 

[Clear]

Paarsurrey asked : “Can one elaborate further as to what the followers of Rabbinic Judaism who call themselves Jews in our times could return to Prophetic Religion of Moses/Jacob(Israel)/Abraham , please, right?” (post #359)



Hi @paarsurrey

I think that many of the Children of Israel are already in the slow process of adopting Prophetic religion (Early Christianity or Messianic Judaism) even now.

The small portion of Israel that developed into “Rabbinic Judaism” will, I think” at some point also gradually come to the knowledge of their Messiah for the most part, and upon the actual return of the Messiah at his second coming, the rest of the “hold out” Rabbanates will accept the Messiah. A couple of principles are already at play.


1) THE JEWS (i.e. members of the tribe/kingdom of Judah) ARE ONLY A SMALL PORTION OF ISRAEL

It is estimated that there are approximately 16 million (with an “M”) Jews and 2.4 billion (with a “B”) Christians in this world of approximately 8 billion people and importantly, the relatively small sect known as “rabbinic Judaism” is only a portion of the various historical Judaisms.

This is an unusually low number of Jews given the fact that there are approximately 35 million people that are descendants of the approximately 50 passengers on the mayflower. I would have expected there to be many, many, many more individuals who identify as Jews in the modern world if they reproduced at a rate similar to the mayflower descendants.

The reason I point this out is that the remnants of the tribe/kingdom of Judah (i.e. the “Jews”) are only a small portion of those members of the kingdom of Israel (i.e. Judah AND the other eleven tribes) and IF the descendants of the 10 "lost" trives are members of a religion, they are, statistically much more likely to be Christians or Muslim as a percent of the world religions rather than Rabbinic Jews. And, there may be many, many, many millions of them as opposed to the rabbinic (rabbanate) Jews.

Thus, the majority of the children Israel are probably NOT rabbinic Jews but instead, are members of another religion (if they are religious) such as Messianic Jews / Christians who HAVE accepted the Messiah Jesus



2) A SPIRITUAL GATHERING OF ISRAEL TO THE MESSIAH IS TAKING PLACE

Wikipedia says regarding Messiac Judaism (i.e. Jews that have accepted the Messiah) that “from 2003 to 2007, the movement grew from 150 Messianic houses of worship in the United States to as many as 438, with over 100 in Israel and more worldwide”.

Now this percent of Jews who have accepted the Messiah is quite amazing growth.
The point is that the rate of Jews that are gathering spiritually (and physically) to Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity) where they accepted the Messiah is growing much more rapidly percentage wise than the rabbinic Judaism branch of Judaism.

If the millions who do not know they are of Israel (i.e. descendants of the Lost Tribes) are Christian, then the spiritual gathering of Israel to their Messiah is already happening. We simply lack the data to know specifics in this regard.



3) THE EARLY TEXTUAL WITNESSES FROM EARLIER JUDAISM WILL BE HELPFUL IN TURNING JUDAISM TO THEIR MESSIAH AS WELL AS HELP CHRISTIANS LEARN WHAT EARLY MESSIANIC JUDAISM (i.e. Early Christianity or “Christian Judaism”) WAS LIKE.

While I think there are probably multiple mechanisms that are going to turn the Jews back to their Messiah, I am really interested in the role of the early Jewish and Christian Textual discoveries in this process.

It has been observed that more early sacred jewish-christian literature has been discovered in the 19th century than all other centuries combined.

Much of the Jewish epigraphs from the time period before rabbinic Judaism existed and some Jewish literature concurrent with the advent of Rabbinic Judaism will, I think, play a role in supporting the early Jewish belief in a Messiah and provide more evidence that Jesus was that Messiah.

For example : I gave you a quote from Jewish Enoch as an example in post #358.

Jewish Enoch has become syncretic but was committed to writing approx. 300 B.C. and thus represents a Judaism that existed before the later advent of Rabbinic Judaism as a predominant form of Judaism. This earlier form of Judaism certainly expected a messiah and had the messianic doctrine in a very mature form.

For example : In the prophet Enochs’ vision of heaven, he sees both the Father (Lord of spirits, head of days, etc) and the son (the Son of Man, the future Messiah) with the Father when the Messiah was chosen to play his messianic role during mortality.

This Jewish text says speaking of the Prophet Enochs’ vision of Heaven :

“1 Furthermore, in that place, I saw the fountain of righteousness, which does not become depleted and is surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. 2 At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the head of days. 3 even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. 4 He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. 5 All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him: they shall glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. 6 For this purpose he became the Chosen One; he was concealed in the presence of (the Lord of the Spirits) prior to the creation of the world, and for eternity. 7 And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression (together with) all its ways of life and its habits in the name of the Lord of the Spirits; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life.” 1st Enoch 48:1-7;


Though this literature dealing with pre-creation time periods (and it’s study) is forbidden by the Rabbinic Jewish Talmud, (and thus orthodox Rabbinic Jews who obey this prohibition will not have such knowledge) still the many textual witnesses from the genre of ancient Messianic Jewish / Christian literature parallels such pre-rabbinic Jewish histories (as one would expect in a Messianic Judaism).

For example, the decensus literature (the literature concerning the 40 days the Messiah spent with the disciples after his resurrection) such as the Discourse on Abbaton also witnesses the resurrected Jesus telling of his having volunteered to be the Messiah before Adam was made alive.

The resurrected Jesus tells his disciples that the great controversy surrounding mortality was that if God places a spirit into the body of adam and inaugurates mortality, then Adams descendants will do much evil upon the face of the earth and to then redeem mankind will be painful and difficult.

Jesus explained regarding this discussion about Adam : “ And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him." And My Father said unto Me, "If I put breath into him, My beloved son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to primal state." And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command."

The point is that the ancient Jewish and Messianic textual witness accumulate and form a coherent and cohesive picture of early Jewish AND Christian Orthodoxy. I think that as such Jewish history is discovered and becomes known and studied, then more and more Jews will come to accept their Messiah. And at the second coming of the Messiah, the “hold-outs” will also come to recognize the Messiah.



4) REGARDING PROPHETIC RELIGION

One stand-out principle in early literature is that individuals who tried to gain truth and do good, having faith in God, that he is able and willing to reveal further truth to them, and who seek the truth, will be given more knowledge as they ask for it in faith and are able and willing to accept more truth.

As Jews (and all other individuals) come to exercise faith in Gods ability and willingness to give us more truth, then I think they will start to have increasing insight and truth given them by the Holy spirit which all individuals may access and feel.

As such individuals come to receive more and greater and clearer manifestations and revelations from God, and have faith in such revelations it will simply be another manifestation of God’s promise that “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. (Acts 2:17).

For example, in the convert Perpetuas' diary, the introduction specifically refers to this scripture as a reference to her ability to have revelation given her as she accepted truth and had faith. I do not see any reason why a Jewish person who has faith and is willing to change cannot access these same promises.

In any case, I think the principles of accumulating Jewish and Messianic textual witnesses supporting Jesus as the Messiah will be active as a mechanism of helping the Rabbinic Jews (and the rest of us) come to a greater knowledge of and belief in the Messiah.


Good luck coming to your own beliefs Paarsurrey.


Clear

 

[Ebionite]

Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity)

They're not the same thing. Messianic Judaism would be more closely aligned with the followers of James, who kept the Torah. Christianity is more descriptive of the Hellenised beliefs of those who followed Paul.

 

[Clear]

Clear referred to Messianic Judaism as a type of Christianity.
Ebionite said : "They're not the same thing. Messianic Judaism would be more closely aligned with the followers of James, who kept the Torah. Christianity is more descriptive of the Hellenised beliefs of those who followed Paul."

Hi @Ebionite

I quite agree that there are differences between the various sects called Christians just as there are differences between the various sects called Jews.

I was merely referring to the fact that the ancient Messianic Jews who accepted the Messiah Jesus Christ were and are Christians based on their belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. I do agree that the semantics of the term Christianity cannot be generalized into a monolithic unit just as Judaism is not a monolithic unity (nor is Islam a monolithic unit).

Rabbi David Chernoff, a Messianic Rabbi/Jew (i.e. a Christian) of the Christian group Congregation Shem Israel explains regarding their use of the term "Messianic Jew" for their Christian sect rather than simply adopting the over generalization "Christian".

Rabbi Chernoff explains :

The term “Christian” originally meant “follower of the Christ” or “follower of the Messiah”. By itself “Christian” is a good term. Theologically, Messianic Jews are Christians and many of us do identify as Christians and call ourselves Christians. But sadly, over time the term “Christian” came to be used over-broadly and inaccurately. Many people today have a false dichotomy in their minds, that on the one hand there are Jews and Judaism, and on the other hand there are Gentiles and Christianity; and supposedly one must choose between the two. Accordingly, when a Jewish person accepts Yeshua he is thought to have “switched over” from the Jew-Judaism side to the Gentile-Christianity side; and is therefore no longer regarded as a Jew, but as a Gentile-Christian. For all intents and purposes the term “Christian” has become synonymous with “non-Jew” or “Gentile”. We believe the opposite to be true. Nothing could be more Jewish than to follow Israel’s Messiah! Consequently we also choose to call ourselves “Messianic Jews”, which identifies us as Jewish people who follow Messiah Yeshua.

If any reader wants to see frequently asked questions regarding Messianic Jews (i.e. Jews that are Christians) then clicking the following link will be helpful : Messianic Judaism - Shema Israel congregation


Regarding the keeping of Torah by Messianic Jews (Christian Jews), the Rabbi Chernoff explains :
"The covenant upon which much of the Torah is based is the broken Sinai covenant. There is no Temple, and therefore no sacrifices by which we may draw near to God and obtain eternal life. Therefore, it is impossible to keep all the laws of the Mosaic Covenant today. In addition, most Jews live outside of Israel, and many of the laws only apply to life within Israel. Nevertheless, the laws that are part of the covenant mediated by Moses are still valuable and relevant. The Torah continues to inform and guide the life of the Jewish people. It teaches us the right things to do and gives us a good way to live. It helps us live an authentic Jewish lifestyle. It helps us remain part of the Holy People. The early Messianic Jews had a favorable view of the Torah, and many were zealous to live in accordance with it (see Acts 21:20-26). History documents that Messianic Jews continued to live a distinctly Jewish, Torah-based lifestyle for centuries after the arrival of Messiah Yeshua. There is no incompatibility with being “zealous for the Torah” and being a Messianic Jew. Therefore, I’m pro-Torah, while recognizing that the Covenant made at Sinai is a broken covenant. I’m pro-Torah, valuing the great wisdom that is found in the Torah. I’m pro-Torah, recognizing that all Believers are in some sense to fulfill the Law (Romans 8:4), but that not all of us are obligated to fulfill the same requirements of the Law (for example, Gentiles need not be circumcised). I’m pro-Torah, recognizing that nobody (Jewish or otherwise) can be saved by the works of the Law. I’m pro-Torah, recognizing that Messiah’s teaching helps return us to the Torah’s original intent regarding issues such as a man being married to only one woman. I’m pro-Torah, understanding that one of the main purposes of the Torah is to point us to Messiah. I’m pro-Torah, accepting the fact that Messianic Jews who choose not to keep every aspect of the Law, particularly the ceremonial laws, do not lose their salvation. My personal experience is that I have become more observant over time, but it was a process that took years. I encourage Messianic Jews to identify with and embrace their Jewish heritage, which in large part is based on the Torah; and I encourage Messianic Jews and Christians to be gracious to each other regarding others’ level of Torah observance."


I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful Ebionite


Clear

 

[Ebionite]

I was merely referring to the fact that the ancient Messianic Jews who accepted the Messiah Jesus Christ were and are Christians based on their belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

It was the practice of the Church Fathers to expand the definition of Christian in order to obscure the legitimacy of competing sects that had nothing in common with the Pauline school. The original followers were called the people of the way, not Christians.

And when he had found [Paul], he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 11:26

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I quite agree that there are differences between the various sects called Christians just as there are differences between the various sects called Jews.

There are four movements of Judaism. There are 10s of thousands of Christian denominations. I would say that sounds very UNalike.

 

[Clear]

POST ONE OF TWO

Hi @Ebionite

REGARDING PAARSURREY'S QUESTION AS TO HOW RABBINIC JUDAISM COULD RETURN TO A PROPHETIC RELIGION

Paarsurrey asked : “Can one elaborate further as to what the followers of Rabbinic Judaism who call themselves Jews in our times could return to Prophetic Religion of Moses/Jacob(Israel)/Abraham , please, right?” (post #359)

Clear responded in post #363 (the following is a SUMMARY only). above :
1) THE JEWS (i.e. members of the tribe/kingdom of Judah) ARE ONLY A SMALL PORTION OF ISRAEL
In summary, the modern remnants of the tribe/kingdom of Judah (i.e. the “Jews”) are only a small portion of those members of the kingdom of Israel (i.e. Judah AND the other eleven tribes) and IF the descendants of the 10 "lost" trives are members of a religion, they are, statistically much more likely to be one of the 2.8 Billion Christians or perhaps Muslims as a percent of the world religions rather than Rabbinic Jews. And, there may be many, many, many millions of them as opposed to the rabbinic (rabbanate) Jews who only represent 16 millions.

2) A SPIRITUAL GATHERING OF ISRAEL TO THE MESSIAH IS TAKING PLACE
Wikipedia says regarding Messiac Judaism (i.e. Jews that have accepted the Messiah) that “from 2003 to 2007, the movement grew from 150 Messianic houses of worship in the United States to as many as 438, with over 100 in Israel and more worldwide”.
The point is that the rate of Jews that are gathering spiritually (and physically) to Messianic Judaism (i.e. Christianity) where they accepted the Messiah is growing much more rapidly percentage wise than the rabbinic Judaism branch of Judaism.

3) THE EARLY TEXTUAL WITNESSES FROM EARLIER JUDAISM WILL BE HELPFUL IN TURNING JUDAISM TO THEIR MESSIAH AS WELL AS HELP CHRISTIANS LEARN WHAT EARLY MESSIANIC JUDAISM (i.e. Early Christianity or “Christian Judaism”) WAS LIKE.
Much of the Jewish epigraphs from the time period before rabbinic Judaism existed and some Jewish literature concurrent with the advent of Rabbinic Judaism will, I think, play a role in supporting the early Jewish belief in a Messiah and provide more evidence that Jesus was that Messiah. For example : I gave you a quote from Jewish Enoch as an example in post #358.

Though this literature dealing with pre-creation time periods (and it’s study) is forbidden by the Rabbinic Jewish Talmud, (and thus orthodox Rabbinic Jews who obey this prohibition will not have such knowledge) still the many textual witnesses from the genre of ancient Messianic Jewish / Christian literature parallels such pre-rabbinic Jewish histories (as one would expect in a Messianic Judaism).

The point is that the ancient Jewish and Messianic textual witness accumulate and form a coherent and cohesive picture of early Jewish AND Christian Orthodoxy. I think that as such Jewish history is discovered and becomes known and studied, then more and more Jews will come to accept their Messiah. And at the second coming of the Messiah, the “hold-outs” will also come to recognize the Messiah.


4) REGARDING PROPHETIC RELIGION
One stand-out principle in early literature is that individuals who tried to gain truth and do good, having faith in God, that he is able and willing to reveal further truth to them, and who seek the truth, will be given more knowledge as they ask for it in faith and are able and willing to accept more truth.
As Jews (and all other individuals) come to exercise faith in Gods ability and willingness to give us more truth, then I think they will start to have increasing insight and truth given them by the Holy spirit which all individuals may access and feel.


2) REGARDING WHETHER MESSIANIC JEWS WHO BELIEVE IN THE MESSIAH CHRIST JESUS ARE CHRISTIANS
Ebionite said : "They're not the same thing. Messianic Judaism would be more closely aligned with the followers of James, who kept the Torah. Christianity is more descriptive of the Hellenised beliefs of those who followed Paul." (post 364)
Clear responded : I quite agree that there are differences between the various sects called Christians just as there are differences between the various sects called Jews. (post #365)

I was merely referring to the fact that the ancient Messianic Jews who accepted the Messiah Jesus Christ were and are Christians based on their belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. I do agree that the semantics of the term Christianity cannot be generalized into a monolithic unit just as Judaism is not a monolithic unity (nor is Islam a monolithic unit).

Rabbi David Chernoff, a Messianic Rabbi/Jew (i.e. a Christian) of the Christian group Congregation Shem Israel explains regarding their use of the term "Messianic Jew" for their Christian sect rather than simply adopting the over generalization "Christian".

Rabbi Chernoff explains :

The term “Christian” originally meant “follower of the Christ” or “follower of the Messiah”. By itself “Christian” is a good term. Theologically, Messianic Jews are Christians and many of us do identify as Christians and call ourselves Christians. But sadly, over time the term “Christian” came to be used over-broadly and inaccurately. Many people today have a false dichotomy in their minds, that on the one hand there are Jews and Judaism, and on the other hand there are Gentiles and Christianity; and supposedly one must choose between the two. Accordingly, when a Jewish person accepts Yeshua he is thought to have “switched over” from the Jew-Judaism side to the Gentile-Christianity side; and is therefore no longer regarded as a Jew, but as a Gentile-Christian. For all intents and purposes the term “Christian” has become synonymous with “non-Jew” or “Gentile”. We believe the opposite to be true. Nothing could be more Jewish than to follow Israel’s Messiah! Consequently we also choose to call ourselves “Messianic Jews”, which identifies us as Jewish people who follow Messiah Yeshua.

If any reader wants to see frequently asked questions regarding Messianic Jews (i.e. Jews that are Christians) then clicking the following link will be helpful : Messianic Judaism - Shema Israel congregation

Regarding the keeping of Torah by Messianic Jews (Christian Jews), the Rabbi Chernoff explains :
"The covenant upon which much of the Torah is based is the broken Sinai covenant. There is no Temple, and therefore no sacrifices by which we may draw near to God and obtain eternal life. Therefore, it is impossible to keep all the laws of the Mosaic Covenant today. In addition, most Jews live outside of Israel, and many of the laws only apply to life within Israel. Nevertheless, the laws that are part of the covenant mediated by Moses are still valuable and relevant. The Torah continues to inform and guide the life of the Jewish people. It teaches us the right things to do and gives us a good way to live. It helps us live an authentic Jewish lifestyle. It helps us remain part of the Holy People. The early Messianic Jews had a favorable view of the Torah, and many were zealous to live in accordance with it (see Acts 21:20-26). History documents that Messianic Jews continued to live a distinctly Jewish, Torah-based lifestyle for centuries after the arrival of Messiah Yeshua. There is no incompatibility with being “zealous for the Torah” and being a Messianic Jew. Therefore, I’m pro-Torah, while recognizing that the Covenant made at Sinai is a broken covenant. I’m pro-Torah, valuing the great wisdom that is found in the Torah. I’m pro-Torah, recognizing that all Believers are in some sense to fulfill the Law (Romans 8:4), but that not all of us are obligated to fulfill the same requirements of the Law (for example, Gentiles need not be circumcised). I’m pro-Torah, recognizing that nobody (Jewish or otherwise) can be saved by the works of the Law. I’m pro-Torah, recognizing that Messiah’s teaching helps return us to the Torah’s original intent regarding issues such as a man being married to only one woman. I’m pro-Torah, understanding that one of the main purposes of the Torah is to point us to Messiah. I’m pro-Torah, accepting the fact that Messianic Jews who choose not to keep every aspect of the Law, particularly the ceremonial laws, do not lose their salvation. My personal experience is that I have become more observant over time, but it was a process that took years. I encourage Messianic Jews to identify with and embrace their Jewish heritage, which in large part is based on the Torah; and I encourage Messianic Jews and Christians to be gracious to each other regarding others’ level of Torah observance." (post #365)

Having settled the fact that Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus Christ are Christians we move on to Ebionites next claim


ARE JEWS (OR ANYONE ELSE) WHO BELIEVE IN THE MESSIAH JESUS, "CHRISTIANS"?
Ebionite replied : "It was the practice of the Church Fathers to expand the definition of Christian in order to obscure the legitimacy of competing sects that had nothing in common with the Pauline school. (post #366)
I don't see how this claim means that Jews who believe in the Messiah/Christ Jesus are not Christian.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

 

[Clear]

POST TWO OF TWO

IF WE CALL MESSIANIC JUDAISM (I.E. JEWS THAT BELIEVE IN THE MESSIAH CHRIST) OR CHRISTIANITY BY A DIFFERENT NAME, IS IT STILL CHRISTIANITY?
The original followers were called the people of the way, not Christians. (post #366)

And when he had found [Paul], he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 11:26" (post #366)

I very much Agree with this. The plan of God for man involving the Messiah Jesus was called "the Way", and other terms as well. For examples :

Jewish 4th Ezra uses the term in speaking of those "... have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his Law, and who have hated those who fear God " Fourth Book of Ezra 7: 75-87;

Judeo-Christian Paul uses the term in speaking of expounding "unto him the way of God more perfectly. Acts 18:26,

Judeo-Christian Odes of Solomon speaks of "the way of his paths" thusly : "he who knew and exalted me is the Most High in all his perfection. 8 And he glorified me by his kindness, and raised my understanding to the height of truth. 9 And from there he gave me the way of his paths, and I opened the doors which were closed. 10 And I shattered the bars of iron,....#17:3,6-15;

Jewish 1Q and 4Q of the dead sea scrolls speaks of the the way of your [God's] heart saying : ": For they did not choose the wa[y o]f your [heart] nor attend to Your word, but they said concerning the vision of knowledge, ‘it is not sure,’ ; and concerning the way of your heart, ‘It is not the way.’ THANKSGIVING PSALMS - Col. 12:17-18 , 1QH + 4Q432 frag.3

4Q describes “…the secret of the way things are" in describing some of the religious history of the earth. 4Q418 Frag. 77

The Prophet Ezra speaks of "the way of the Most High" in saying : "I strive to understand the way of the Most High and to search out part of his judgment. The Fourth Book of Ezra 5:23,33,38-40; ”

The Didache describes "the way of life" saying : "13 You must not forsake the Lord’s commandments, but must guard what you have received, neither adding nor subtracting anything. 14 In church you shall confess your transgressions, and you shall not approach your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life.. Didache 4:14 ;

Peter describes the Gospel as "the way of righteousness" saying : 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Pet 2:20-21;

Peter also calls "the way of truth" : 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 2 Pet 1:21- 2:1-2;

Hermas describes the Gospel as "the way": and ""the way of righteousness" saying : "“For the way of righteousness is straight, but that of unrighteousness is crooked. But follow the straight and level way, and leave the crooked one alone. 3 For the crooked way has no paths but only uneven ground and many obstacles, and is rough and thorny. ... But those who follow the straight path walk smoothly and without stumbling, for it is neither rough nor thorny. You see, then, that it is more advantageous to follow this way.” 5 “I am pleased, sir,” I said, “to follow this way.” “So follow it,” he said, “and whoever turns to the Lord with all his heart will follow it.” Hermas 35:2-5;

The prophet Ezra also describes it as "the way of the Lord" thusly : “2And he commanded them that they should guard the way of the Lord so that they might do righteousness... Jubilees (the book of division) 20:2, 3;

The Coptic Psalm book calls it "the way of truth" thusly : When the Holy Spirit came, he revealed to us the way of truth and taught us that there are two Natures, that of the Light and that of the Darkness, separated from each other since the beginning.” THE COPTIC PSALM-BOOK Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11);

Barnabas called it "the way of light" thusly : “This, therefore, is the way of light; if anyone desires to make his way to the designated place, let him be diligent in his works.” The Epistle of Barnabas P 185 19:1; 20


In summary, I very much agree with you that both before and after Christ, Judeo-Christian texts describe the gospel of truth as "the way" and various other forms of "the way".

However, None of this shows people, including Jews, who believe in the Messiah Christ Jesus are not Christians.

Indeed, people who believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah are Christians whether there religion was called "the way", "the way of the most high", "the way of righteousness", the way of his paths, ."the way of life", "the way of truth", "the way of light", (or whether we name it at all.)


Clear

 

[Ebionite]

I don't see how this claim means that Jews who believe in the Messiah/Christ Jesus are not Christian.

I doesn't. It provides a reason as to why they are labelled as such.

However, None of this shows people, including Jews, who believe in the Messiah Christ Jesus are not Christians.

The word Christ comes with attached Hellenist religious baggage, it's not a simple translation of Messiah.

Resolving this involves identifying the essential elements of Christianity. Since the label of Christian was associated with Paul and Hellenism it's reasonable to think that those who rejected that are not Christians.

Also the people of YHWH are described as set-apart (i.e. holy), which contrasts with the original Christian church which was described as universal, from the Greek katholika.

 

[paarsurrey]

I doesn't. It provides a reason as to why they are labelled as such.


The word Christ comes with attached Hellenist religious baggage, it's not a simple translation of Messiah.

Resolving this involves identifying the essential elements of Christianity. Since the label of Christian was associated with Paul and Hellenism it's reasonable to think that those who rejected that are not Christians.

Also the people of YHWH are described as set-apart (i.e. holy), which contrasts with the original Christian church which was described as universal, from the Greek katholika.

" The word Christ comes with attached Hellenist religious baggage, it's not a simple translation of Messiah. " #370 of our friend @Ebionite

I agree with one here.
And this baggage is not in small amount, it is enormous, rather one must say as I perceive , it is overwhelming and so much so that the teachings of Yeshua and his Ways are little in the Pauline-Christianity Bible called NT, right?

Regards

 

[Ebionite]

And this baggage is not in small amount, it is enormous, rather one must say as I perceive , it is overwhelming and so much so that the teachings of Yeshua and his Ways are little in the Pauline-Christianity Bible called NT, right?

It's a combination of complementary ideologies. Yeshua endorsed Peter and Peter endorsed Paul, but Paul's account of being endorsed by Yeshua in Acts 26 doesn't agree with what he was told by Ananias in Acts 9. Peter disavowed Yeshua's name (Matthew 26:74), and Paul's role was to make the name known (Acts 9:15). Peter's endorsement was associated with life (Matthew 16:16), but Paul's doctrine was associated with death (1 Corinthians 2:2, 1 Corinthians 11:26).

 

[Clear]

1) REGARDING WHETHER PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST ARE CHRISTIANS

Clear said : "However, None of this shows people, including Jews, who believe in the Messiah Christ Jesus are not Christians." (post #369)

Ebionite replied : The word Christ comes with attached Hellenist religious baggage, it's not a simple translation of Messiah. (post #370)

Actually, the word "Christ" IS a simple translation of "Messiah" in the typical usage.
Let me give you some examples from various dictionaries :




1A ) REGARDING THE NORMAL MEANING OF THE WORD "CHRIST" AS "MESSIAH"

The Oxford languages dictionary says of the word "Christ" does mean messiah:

Wikipedia dictionary agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:

Merriam Webster dictionary agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:

Bible Info website agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:

Tverberg agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:


Dictionary dot com agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:

"One for Israel" agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:

On line Entymology agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:

Now, having established that the word "Christ" DOES mean "Messiah", I do agree that there can be other meaning and nuances associated with the word "Christ", but not in the way Christians and Jewish Christians are typically using this term.

IF your theory is that we should use obscure semantic meanings in the place of the typical usage of the word, then you will have to support your reason to re-assign meanings for the purpose of this conversation.



2) BELIEF IN THE MESSIAH JESUS IS THE "ESSENTIAL ELEMENT" OF CHRISTIANITY
Ebionite claimed : "Resolving this involves identifying the essential elements of Christianity. Since the label of Christian was associated with Paul and Hellenism it's reasonable to think that those who rejected that are not Christians. (post #367)

No, it's NOT particularly reasonable to claim that individuals must agree with this silly Caricature of Christianity.
If one believes in Christ, they may identify as being Christian.
They do not have to believe in your specific and silly interpretation of what constitutes a christian.



3) THE PEOPLE OF JHWH ARE DESCRIBED AS SET APART, I.E. "HOLY". THE EARLY SAINTS WERE CALLED "SAINTS" FROM THE WORD (Grk αγιοσ" or "HOLY"
Ebionite claimed : "Also the people of YHWH are described as set-apart (i.e. holy), which contrasts with the original Christian church...." (post #367)

Actually, the truth is that early Christians were called "saints" , αγιοσ (i.e. holy).
[40 (hágios) implies something "set apart" and therefore "different (distinguished/distinct)" – i.e. "other," because special to the Lord.]

In summary, any person who believes in the Messiah / Christ Jesus can certainly claim to be a Christian.
It's not perfectly clear why you want to argue otherwise.
Is it because I pointed out that the number of Jews that are accepting Jesus as the Messiah / Christ is growing much, much, much faster than those who claim to believe in Rabbinic Judaism?
If so, please be at peace on this point.
I was merely pointing out that the vast majority of Israel may actually be a member of Messianic Judaism which, in this context, is Christianity.


In any case Ebionite. I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful.

Clear

 

[paarsurrey]

" This is simply one mechanism underlying how Rabbinic Judaism apostatized from correct Prophetic Religion. Give me some time to think and I will add to this. "
Friends @Eli G , @IndigoChild5559

Can one elaborate further as to what the followers of Rabbinic Judaism who call themselves Jews in our times could return to Prophetic Religion of Moses/Jacob(Israel)/Abraham , please, right?

Regards

Friend @Clear post #368
Friends @Eli G , @IndigoChild5559 @Ebionite

I just checked and found out that there was no sect/denomination of Judaism, even in the past, with the name Prophetic Judaism/religion, right?

Regards

 

[Ebionite]

Actually, the word "Christ" IS a simple translation of "Messiah" in the typical usage.

It's not. Using your second source, Wikipedia, "Christ, used by Christians" refers to the specific religious context of Christianity.
A simple translation would be something like the translation of verde to green.

I do agree that there can be other meaning and nuances associated with the word "Christ", but not in the way Christians and Jewish Christians are typically using this term.

You don't think that it's typical that Christians think that Christ died so that they could be saved? This idea isn't well supported by the prophets of Judaism.

No, it's NOT particularly reasonable to claim that individuals must agree with this silly Caricature of Christianity.

Which idea do you think is silly?
1. That Christians got their name at Antioch
2. That Paul was teaching his doctrine at Antioch
3. That Antioch was known for it's Hellenic character

Actually, the truth is that early Christians were called "saints" , αγιοσ (i.e. holy).

All of them?

 

[Ebionite]

I just checked and found out that there was no sect/denomination of Judaism, even in the past, with the name Prophetic Judaism/religion, right?

AFAIK the prophets have always been held to be integral to Judaism, so there's nothing to be gained for any sect to claim them as their own.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Friend @Clear post #368
Friends @Eli G , @IndigoChild5559 @Ebionite

I just checked and found out that there was no sect/denomination of Judaism, even in the past, with the name Prophetic Judaism/religion, right?

Regards

That is correct. There was a time in our history when Jews had prophets (it ended long ago). But this was not called prophetic judaism.

It is my understanding that in ancient Hebrew there was no word for Judaism at all. Nor was there a word for religion. The Hebrew word Yahadut (Judaism) does not appear in the Bible. Jews simply understood we had a covenantal relationship with God that required our obedience.

Paar, in your earlier post where you mentioned Prophetic Judaism, I just wrote it off as you making up your own words again, as you do with "Israelite Messiah." I wish you would use standard English, but what can I say, you are going to do as you please.

 

[Clear]

1) REGARDING WHETHER PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST ARE CHRISTIANS

1) REGARDING WHETHER PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST ARE CHRISTIANS

Clear said : "However, None of this shows people, including Jews, who believe in the Messiah Christ Jesus are not Christians." (post #369)

Ebionite replied : The word Christ comes with attached Hellenist religious baggage, it's not a simple translation of Messiah. (post #370)

Actually, the word "Christ" IS a simple translation of "Messiah" in the typical usage.
Let me give you some examples from various dictionaries :




1A ) REGARDING THE NORMAL MEANING OF THE WORD "CHRIST" AS "MESSIAH"

The Oxford languages dictionary says of the word "Christ" does mean messiah:

View attachment 82285


Wikipedia dictionary agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:
View attachment 82286


Merriam Webster dictionary agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:

View attachment 82287


Bible Info website agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:
View attachment 82288


Tverberg agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:


Dictionary dot com agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:View attachment 82290View attachment 82289


"One for Israel" agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:
View attachment 82291


On line Entymology agrees that the word "Christ" does mean messiah:

View attachment 82292


Now, having established that the word "Christ" DOES mean "Messiah", I do agree that there can be other meaning and nuances associated with the word "Christ", but not in the way Christians and Jewish Christians are typically using this term.

IF your theory is that we should use obscure semantic meanings in the place of the typical usage of the word, then you will have to support your reason to re-assign meanings for the purpose of this conversation.



2) BELIEF IN THE MESSIAH JESUS IS THE "ESSENTIAL ELEMENT" OF CHRISTIANITY
Ebionite claimed : "Resolving this involves identifying the essential elements of Christianity. Since the label of Christian was associated with Paul and Hellenism it's reasonable to think that those who rejected that are not Christians. (post #367)

No, it's NOT particularly reasonable to claim that individuals must agree with this silly Caricature of Christianity.
If one believes in Christ, they may identify as being Christian.
They do not have to believe in your specific and silly interpretation of what constitutes a christian.



3) THE PEOPLE OF JHWH ARE DESCRIBED AS SET APART, I.E. "HOLY". THE EARLY SAINTS WERE CALLED "SAINTS" FROM THE WORD (Grk αγιοσ" or "HOLY"
Ebionite claimed : "Also the people of YHWH are described as set-apart (i.e. holy), which contrasts with the original Christian church...." (post #367)

Actually, the truth is that early Christians were called "saints" , αγιοσ (i.e. holy).
[40 (hágios) implies something "set apart" and therefore "different (distinguished/distinct)" – i.e. "other," because special to the Lord.]


View attachment 82293
View attachment 82294


In summary, any person who believes in the Messiah / Christ Jesus can certainly claim to be a Christian.
It's not perfectly clear why you want to argue otherwise.
Is it because I pointed out that the number of Jews that are accepting Jesus as the Messiah / Christ is growing much, much, much faster than those who claim to believe in Rabbinic Judaism?
If so, please be at peace on this point.
I was merely pointing out that the vast majority of Israel may actually be a member of Messianic Judaism which, in this context, is Christianity.


In any case Ebionite. I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful.

Clear

Ebionite countered : "It's not. Using your second source, Wikipedia, "Christ, used by Christians" refers to the specific religious context of Christianity." (post #375)

The issue was not WHO used the term "Christ" as a Messiah equivalent, but merely whether it MEANT Messiah.
So, rather than data mine for specific words that you think you can use to support your claim, lets give readers the ENTIRE sentence quote by Wikipedia. Wiki said :

So Wikipedia agrees with all of the other dictionaries and etymological dictionaries in confirming that the word "Christ" has the same meaning as "Messiah" in it's common usage nowadays. While I understand that the Jews do not want the connection between the terms "the Messiah" and "the Christ" because of the religious connotations with Christianity, still, "Messiah" and "Christ" both mean one who is annointed.

and importantly, A similar connection in meaning exists in the ancient literature as well. For examples :

Christian Testament of Adam circa 3-5th centuries refers to Jesus as the Messiah.
1 “Also from the testament of our father Adam. The heavenly powers what they are like and how each of their orders is occupied in the service and the plan of this world. Listen, my beloved, as they are set in order one after another from the bottom, until we reach those who carry our Lord Jesus the Messiah and bear him up. Testament of Adam 4:1-6;


Jewish Enoch first put to print approx 300 B.C., also uses the term in the same way as the word "Christ" is used : “And he said to me, All these things which you have seen happen by the Authority of his Messiah so that he may give orders and be praised upon the earth. 1st Enoch 52:4;

Syncretic Enoch similarly, uses the term in the same way :
“1 Come and I will show you the curtain of the Omnipresent One, which is spread before the holy One, blessed be he and on which are printed all the generations of the world and all their deeds, whether done or to be done, till the last generation. …...and I saw Adam and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts; Noah and the generation of the flood, their deeds and their thoughts;....Abraham and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts......the teachers of the children in Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; the teachers of the children of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts;...all the prophets of Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; all the prophets of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts...And I saw: the Messiah the son of Joseph and his generation, and all that they will do to the gentiles..... V1 p296 3rd Enoch 45:1-5

Jewish Haggadah also uses the term in the same way as the word "Christ" is used :
“In the beginning, Two thousand years before the Heaven and the earth, seven things were created: The Torah...the Celestial Sanctuary directly in front of God, having a jewel on its altar graven with the Name of the Messiah, and a Voice that cries aloud, “Return, you children of men.” When God resolved upon the creation of the world, he took counsel with the Torah. …..The advice of the Torah was given with some reservations. She was skeptical about the value of an earthly world, on account of the sinfulness of men, who would be sure to disregard her precepts. But God dispelled her doubts. He told her that repentance had been created long before, and sinners would have the opportunity of mending their ways. Besides, the Temple service would be invested with atoning power, and Paradise and Hell were intended to do duty as reward and punishment. Finally, the messiah was appointed to bring salvation, which would put an end to all sinfulness. ... The Haggadah (the first things created) ch 1;

4Q from the dead Sea scrolls "Messiah of David" uses the term in the same way :
“You assigned his inheritance in order that You might establish Your name there […] it is the glory of Your inhabited world and upon it […] Your eyes are upon it, and Your glory appears there for […] to his seed through their generations, an eternal possession. …and You tested Your good judgments for him to […] in everlasting light, and You appointed him as Your firstborn son. There is none like him, as a prince and ruler in all Your inhabited world […] the crown of the heavens and glory of the clouds You have placed on him […] and the angel of Your peace in his congregation. …You gave him righteous statutes, as a father gives a son…..” THE INHERITANCE OF THE FIRSTBORN, THE MESSIAH OF DAVID 4q369 Frag.1 Col. 1

Jewish 4th Ezra uses the term in the same way as the word "Christ" is used :
“26 For behold, the time will come, when the signs which I have foretold to you will come to pass; the city which now is not seen shall appear, and the land which now is hidden shall be disclosed. And everyone who has been delivered from the evils that I have foretold shall see my wonders. For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice thirty years (400, 1000, in different versions) . And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath. Fourth Book of Ezra 7:26 - 32;


When the Messianic Jews (Christian Jews) created a New Testament for themselves to read in hebrew, the translators used "Messiah" in the place of "Christ" as the following cut and past from 2 Con 5:18 shows. "Christ" is highlighted in the english and "the Messiah" is highlighted in the hebrew.

So, to summarize for our readers :
It may be uncomfortable to Rabbinic Jews for Christians to use the term "Christ" and "Messiah" interchangeably because the connection is not in tune with their interpretations and their religion, but this was never the issue.
The issue was simply if the word "Christ" and "Messiah" meant the same thing (the anointed one).

In this case, the meanings of the terms are equivalents as the dictionaries and both ancient and modern usage demonstrate.

Clear

 

[Ebionite]

1) REGARDING WHETHER PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST ARE CHRISTIANS






Ebionite countered : "It's not. Using your second source, Wikipedia, "Christ, used by Christians" refers to the specific religious context of Christianity." (post #375)

The issue was not WHO used the term "Christ" as a Messiah equivalent, but merely whether it MEANT Messiah.
So, rather than data mine for specific words that you think you can use to support your claim, lets give readers the ENTIRE sentence quote by Wikipedia. Wiki said :

View attachment 82323
View attachment 82324
View attachment 82325


So Wikipedia agrees with all of the other dictionaries and etymological dictionaries in confirming that the word "Christ" has the same meaning as "Messiah" in it's common usage nowadays. While I understand that the Jews do not want the connection between the terms "the Messiah" and "the Christ" because of the religious connotations with Christianity, still, "Messiah" and "Christ" both mean one who is annointed.

and importantly, A similar connection in meaning exists in the ancient literature as well. For examples :

Christian Testament of Adam circa 3-5th centuries refers to Jesus as the Messiah.
1 “Also from the testament of our father Adam. The heavenly powers what they are like and how each of their orders is occupied in the service and the plan of this world. Listen, my beloved, as they are set in order one after another from the bottom, until we reach those who carry our Lord Jesus the Messiah and bear him up. Testament of Adam 4:1-6;


Jewish Enoch first put to print approx 300 B.C., also uses the term in the same way as the word "Christ" is used : “And he said to me, All these things which you have seen happen by the Authority of his Messiah so that he may give orders and be praised upon the earth. 1st Enoch 52:4;

Syncretic Enoch similarly, uses the term in the same way :
“1 Come and I will show you the curtain of the Omnipresent One, which is spread before the holy One, blessed be he and on which are printed all the generations of the world and all their deeds, whether done or to be done, till the last generation. …...and I saw Adam and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts; Noah and the generation of the flood, their deeds and their thoughts;....Abraham and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts......the teachers of the children in Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; the teachers of the children of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts;...all the prophets of Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; all the prophets of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts...And I saw: the Messiah the son of Joseph and his generation, and all that they will do to the gentiles..... V1 p296 3rd Enoch 45:1-5

Jewish Haggadah also uses the term in the same way as the word "Christ" is used :
“In the beginning, Two thousand years before the Heaven and the earth, seven things were created: The Torah...the Celestial Sanctuary directly in front of God, having a jewel on its altar graven with the Name of the Messiah, and a Voice that cries aloud, “Return, you children of men.” When God resolved upon the creation of the world, he took counsel with the Torah. …..The advice of the Torah was given with some reservations. She was skeptical about the value of an earthly world, on account of the sinfulness of men, who would be sure to disregard her precepts. But God dispelled her doubts. He told her that repentance had been created long before, and sinners would have the opportunity of mending their ways. Besides, the Temple service would be invested with atoning power, and Paradise and Hell were intended to do duty as reward and punishment. Finally, the messiah was appointed to bring salvation, which would put an end to all sinfulness. ... The Haggadah (the first things created) ch 1;

4Q from the dead Sea scrolls "Messiah of David" uses the term in the same way :
“You assigned his inheritance in order that You might establish Your name there […] it is the glory of Your inhabited world and upon it […] Your eyes are upon it, and Your glory appears there for […] to his seed through their generations, an eternal possession. …and You tested Your good judgments for him to […] in everlasting light, and You appointed him as Your firstborn son. There is none like him, as a prince and ruler in all Your inhabited world […] the crown of the heavens and glory of the clouds You have placed on him […] and the angel of Your peace in his congregation. …You gave him righteous statutes, as a father gives a son…..” THE INHERITANCE OF THE FIRSTBORN, THE MESSIAH OF DAVID 4q369 Frag.1 Col. 1

Jewish 4th Ezra uses the term in the same way as the word "Christ" is used :
“26 For behold, the time will come, when the signs which I have foretold to you will come to pass; the city which now is not seen shall appear, and the land which now is hidden shall be disclosed. And everyone who has been delivered from the evils that I have foretold shall see my wonders. For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice thirty years (400, 1000, in different versions) . And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath. Fourth Book of Ezra 7:26 - 32;


When the Messianic Jews (Christian Jews) created a New Testament for themselves to read in hebrew, the translators used "Messiah" in the place of "Christ" as the following cut and past from 2 Con 5:18 shows. "Christ" is highlighted in the english and "the Messiah" is highlighted in the hebrew.

View attachment 82327


So, to summarize for our readers :
It may be uncomfortable to Rabbinic Jews for Christians to use the term "Christ" and "Messiah" interchangeably because the connection is not in tune with their interpretations and their religion, but this was never the issue.
The issue was simply if the word "Christ" and "Messiah" meant the same thing (the anointed one).

In this case, the meanings of the terms are equivalents as the dictionaries and both ancient and modern usage demonstrate.

Clear

Etymology and context are different things. It remains that your own source - Wikipedia describes ther term "Christ" for the context of Christianity.

Christians obviously interpret the term doctrinally rather than by etymology, since the idea of sacrificing a messiah is anathema to Judiasm.

 

[Clear]

Ebionite said : "Etymology and context are different things. It remains that your own source - Wikipedia describes ther term "Christ" for the context of Christianity.
Christians obviously interpret the term doctrinally rather than by etymology, since the idea of sacrificing a messiah is anathema to Judiasm."


1) REGARDING THE ISSUE OF WHETHER PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS THE SAVIOR/MESSIAH/CHRIST ARE CHRISTIANS
I strongly agree that "Christ" is a term typically used in the context of Christianity.
That should have been obvious from the very start.
If someone believes in the Messiah Jesus Christ, they are a Christian.

It is also perfectly fine to use the term "Messiah" in reference to the Christ Jesus in the context of Christianity since the meanings of the terms are equivalents.

Both refer to "the anointed" as the dictionaries, etymologies, translations, and sacred textual examples demonstrate in post #378)



2) REGARDING THE EMERGENCE OF RABBINIC JUDAISM WHICH ANATHEMATIZES THE SACRIFICE OF THE MESSIAH
I agree that the rabbinic Jewish movement (i.e the Judaism that did not accept the Messiah) believed that various animals could be used as sacrifice to atone for their personal sins, they rejected the idea that the Messiah would sacrifice himself.

However, the Messianic Jews (i.e. the Judaism that DID accept the Messiah) believes that the sacrifice of the Messiah was perfectly expected according to torah.

The textual Torah is similar for Jews who accepted and are accepting Messiah Jesus versus the Jews who did not accept the Messiah Jesus.
What is different, in the main is the different interpretation of Torah.



3) REGARDING THE INCREASING ACCEPTANCE OF THE MESSIAH BY JEWS NOWADAYS
As the Messianic Jewish movement (i.e. the Judaism that accepted the Messiah) continues to enlarge so much faster than the Rabbinic Jewish sect, I expect that in the future the majority of Jews will be those that have accepted the Messiah Jesus as I explained in post 363 if that trend continues and especially if that trend speeds up.




Clear