Jews, Ezra and Qur'an

[Rival]

The religious names in the Quran came via Syrio-Aramaic not Hebrew.

I'm aware, as 'Isa' makes little sense. But the point stands, the meanings of the original names are lost.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The religious names in the Quran came via Syrio-Aramaic not Hebrew.

Regardless, the Quran's author(s) are engaging in a practice Muslims themselves discourage: translating names from one language into another. If translating names is so wrong the Quran would say Moses, Abraham, Gabriel, Jesus' etc names in the tongue in which they were written - not Arabic.

 

[Godobeyer]

When I'm out of bed I will create a debate thread for you and I on this. My only requirement is that you stop believing the Bible is corrupted, or else nothing I say will hold any water for you. Deal?

This why I don't trust the interpretations of Church.

christian bursted in tears after Yusuf Estes answered his question! English subtitle

 

[Limo]

Doesn't the Qur'an translate?

Moshe - Musa
Gabriel - Jibril
Noah - Nuh
Yeshua - Isa

etc.

And completely loses the meaning of many Hebrew names?

Who said which pronunciation is the perfect one ?
The old languages especially Hebrew has changed several times if we consider Hebrew is the refrence. What about Aramaic or Syriac ?

Most of these names are pronounced now by Latin/English / French which is too far from it's origion

 

[Rival]

This why I don't trust the interpretations of Church.

christian bursted in tears after Yusuf Estes answered his question! English subtitle

Yusuf Estes? Seriously?

Rival laughs.

 

[Godobeyer]

I don't think All-h's inability to use consistent tensing for the benefit of His readers is an Arabic skill.

But you realize, you just invalidated your entire point. If All-h uses whatever tense he wants, then even when He uses past, He means present. You no longer have any proof that its not talking about in Muhammad's time. When He says وَقَالَتِ using past tense, He really means present (to time of Muhammad), just everything is past tense for Him.

The whole surah is about how to presently deal with the kuffar (9:2, etc.). It starts off talking about the sin of الْمُشْرِكِينَ in the beginning of the surah (9:4, etc.) and how to deal with them (9:14, etc.). Then it moves on to the sin of الْيَهُودُ and النَّصَارَى in (9:30, etc.) and how to deal with them (9:34, etc.).

If you want to say that the Qur'an is saying that the Jews at one time in the past worshiped Ezra, then you have to explain why the ayah says قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ ? Why is the Qur'an exclaiming that All-h should kill them now, for a sin they did in the past, but no longer do?

Your argument is just not logical. You want to separate the first five words of the ayah away from the entire surah and the rest of the ayah itself, because otherwise it would be wrong. Any argument that you have to do that, would make the entire Qur'an useless because that would mean that you can never know when the Qur'an is talking about anything.

Maybe the first part of the surah where it talks about mushrikeen is something that hasn't happened yet? Maybe really you are supposed to make treaties with mushrikeen who break oaths and only sometime in another 300 or 400 years from now is when you are supposed to stop? Because All-h uses all different tenses because He is in all times. So we never know when he means past or present or future.

That's why It's required for non-Arabic Muslims to learn Arabic to understand the Quran more.

You can't reach the meaning of sentence language "word by word".
it's does not work like Google translation.

You will find many stories in same Surah,it's not big deal.

 

[Rival]

Who said which pronunciation is the perfect one ?
The old languages especially Hebrew has changed several times if we consider Hebrew is the refrence. What about Aramaic or Syriac ?

Most of these names are pronounced now by Latin/English / French which is too far from it's origion

Yes, 'Jesus' is meaningless, but the name 'Yeshua' is not. The Hebrew names still retain their meanings.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yusuf Estes? Seriously?

Rival laughs.

Yes seriously.
He was Christian.

EDITED to add:
He read Bible even by Hebrew and Aramaic, and Greek.

 

[Limo]

And we lose our patience because your arguments are so bad, so anti-Semitic, that they are painful.

Mention just one ward from my comments that is considered anti-Semitic

 

[Godobeyer]

So much for a 'clear' Qur'an in Arabic.

Yes, for much clear also Bible in Hebrew and Aramaic.

 

[Limo]

Yes, 'Jesus' is meaningless, but the name 'Yeshua' is not. The Hebrew names still retain their meanings.

What is the Hebrew source that says Yeshua is Latin Jesus-Christ ?

 

[Rival]

What is the Hebrew source that says Yeshua is Latin Jesus-Christ ?

There is no source. That is just how the name 'Yeshua' is in Latin, via Greek. The rules of transliteration require 'Yeshua' to become 'Iesous' in Greek, which came then to 'Iesus' or 'Jesus' in Latin, with the 'J' having an 'I' sound. It's basic linguistics.

 

[Rival]

Yes, for much clear also Bible in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Actually the Bible of the Orthodox Church is entirely in Greek, and is very comprehensible when compared to Qur'an.

 

[Godobeyer]

Actually the Bible of the Orthodox Church is entirely in Greek, and is very comprehensible when compared to Qur'an.

You speaking like you speak/read Greek language lol

It's not it's origin langauge. it was Aramaic and Hebrew.

anyway,fact Quran is comprehensible compared to Greek one. for all Christians , because not all Christians speak Greek. but million of Muslim understand Quran and others millions even memorized it.

 

[Limo]

Then how are non-Arabic-speaking audiences supposed to understand who the Quran is referring to? The Quran itself assumes both familiarity with Judeo-Christian mythos, and an understanding of Arabic. If the Quran or those who study it don't translate Isa as Jesus, Jibril as Gabriel etc how is anyone supposed to pick up on that? If they don't translate then people won't recognise Islam's claims to be the completion of the Abrahamic religions.

Further, the Quran did exactly this when it translated names originally written in Hebrew like Moses into Arabic ones so double-standards much?

When you non-Arabic or non-Muslim or even Muslim read Quran, You should clear your mind from anything you know. The distorted figure of characters (this our belief) should not be in your mind while reading Quran

Let me give you an example, If someone translates Allah as God. This ward "God" When a western especially Christian reads Quran, he'll recall the Trinity figure of God or at least the Father. Which is totally wrong and doesn't coincide with what the ward "Allah" means for Muslim

Another example, Isa who is known as El-Messiah Isa Ibn Mariam. It's a critical mistake to translate it to Jesus-Christ. There is no correlation between the 2 charters. It's completely different figures.

So, When you read Quran, you read and understand The Creator who is Almighty his name is Allah. He's different and have nothing to be related to God in Christianity context. Take out anything you know about Christin God and Islam Allah.
Same, when you read Quran. There is a character who was human only born without a father who was saved by Allah and raised to heaven alive with pride, This is totally different from figured/invented/attributed character in Nicaea and after Jesus-Christ God, Son of God, crucifixed, resurrected, savior... Who never existed.

Clear ?

 

[Rival]

You speaking like you speak/read Greek language lol

It's not it's origin langauge. it was Aramaic and Hebrew.

anyway,fact Quran is comprehensible compared to Greek one. for all Christians , because not all Christians speak Greek. but million of Muslim understand Quran and others millions even memorized it.

Actually, most Muslims do not speak Arabic, let alone 7th century Arabic.

I am making studies in Biblical Greek, yes.

 

[Rival]

When you read non-Arabic or non-Muslim or even Muslim reads Quran, He should clear his mind from anything he knows. The distorted figure of characters (this our belief) should not be in your mind while reading Quran

Let me give you an example, If someone translates Allah as God. This ward "God" When a western especially Christian reads Quran, he'll recall the Trinity figure of God or at least the Father. Which is totally wrong and doesn't coincide with what the ward "Allah" means for Muslim

Another example, Isa who is known as El-Messiah Isa Ibn Mariam. It's a critical mistake to translate it to Jesus-Christ. There is no correlation between the 2 charters. It's completely different figures.

So, When you read Quran, you read and understand The Creator who is Almighty his name is Allah. He's different and have nothing to be related to God in Christianity context. Take out anything you know about Christin God and Islam Allah.
Same, when you read Quran. There is a character who was human only born without a father who was saved by Allah and raised to heaven alive with pride, This is totally different from figured/invented/attributed character in Nicaea and after Jesus-Christ God, Son of God, crucifixed, resurrected, savior... Who never existed.

Clear ?

Jesus Christ was not created at Nicaea. It is the fact that you keep making this mistake that means I do not take anything you say seriously.

Go read Paul's letters, or John's Gospel; Jesus' deity was from the very start of Christian history.

 

[rosends]

To answer the original question -- there is no outside corroboration to the claim that any Jews worshipped Ezra or considered him in any way an object of veneration. If the only argument is that "Jews changed their history and/or left stuff out" and that is presented with no evidence then the argument fails on its face. I don't know why there needs to be any other discussion.

 

[Rival]

Mention just one ward from my comments that is considered anti-Semitic

This idea that Jews changed their history and blah. This is anti-Semitic and a blatant lie.

 

[Godobeyer]

Actually, most Muslims do not speak Arabic, let alone 7th century Arabic.

I am making studies in Biblical Greek, yes.

But at least they read it in Arabic .

You will be lucky if you find someone speak/read greek.

I do believe the concept/skill of language lost it's values in translation.