Jews, Ezra and Qur'an

[firedragon]

Because you are not willing to give a reasonable one. So far all you guys have been telling me, is that this is what it says because there is no other explanation for why it would be there. Basically, because you believe the Qur'an must be true, you have to twist the ayah to make it say something it doesn't say.

But look, the context - as I keep repeating - is talking about how to deal with people in the present. The whole surah is speaking about different kufar. It starts off with the mushrikeen. Speaks about a treaty that happened in the past, but is still ongoing. Then it tells the reader to always be against the mushrikeen and the reward for doing so. And speaks out against anyone who isn't more afraid of All-h then they are of whatever it is they do. Then it moves on to the Jews and Christians.

29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

30: The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians said, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

31: They have taken their rabbis and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

32: They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.

This whole passage is speaking about what the Jews and Christians do. Yes, ayah 30 says "they said", but in context it means "they say", which is why quran.com is translating it that way. Its talking about what they currently do and All-h feels about it. If as you and your friends keep saying, the Jews no longer believe this Ezra to be the son of a god, then there is no reason for Jews to be mentioned in this context. Why is the Qur'an cursing the Jews in ayah 30 for something they did in the past but no longer do? Why doesn't it say "they took" in ayah 31? Why are they consistently compared to the Christians who at the time of the writing still maintained their belief in Jesus as the son of god. Why does ayah 32 make it sound like this act of believing that Ezra is the son of god means that Jews still want to extinguish the light of All-h? It makes perfect sense if you say that the Qur'an mistakenly thought that this is what Jews believe, or wanted other people to think so, even though it wasn't true.

It does not say 'the say' in context.

 

[firedragon]

The diversity between true human prophet character and Jesus Christ is huge to the level that we can say it's two different characters
El-Mesiah is in Arabic and Hebrew as well means the annotated one his full name is El-Mesiah Isa ibn (sun of) Mariam
Nicaea is a council managed by pagan at the time of council empire who welcomed the idea of Jesus to be the Son God. It's said that he influenced in the voting to the 2 persons God.

El Mesiah is not arabic. so mate, if you are Muslim or not I dont care. Just stop stating lies.

What in your mind is the council of nicea????

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

"I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no-one comes to the Father except through me."

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

"I and the Father are one"

Jesus accepts worship. Jesus says things no mere rasool would say.

Are you kidding me? Just go read the New Testament. It is painfully obvious.

I honestly think he said he was.. that's just simple
...
If I look at it from depending and gathering on the people of their beliefs...
I look at from a prospective of that in pagan world to start you could say son of god, son of man I don't think they would pick up on that. Or God. The only God would be ceasar. Thus they say that you can use son of God term, easily understood. Not so much for Caesar. Which leads to son of man the rest.

I don't get to pick up on paul as much...there's not going to be another.... because it divides based on their precepts... you can be a follower of paul or apollos but it's the silliest circle that's got to have something to say for itself. Which the only thing you say is that you were saved by grace..

 

[Limo]

Hmmm. Alright. You think Arabic is an ever-living language that existed since time immemorial??

Brother. May I beg you to not question like this? When you ask questions like who said this who said that it sounds so idiotic. There is so much scholarly work that its embarrassing to answer a question "Who said this" as if its a rumour narrated by a neighbour.

There is no agreement in history, language, and religion
Many of sayings or even research are handled as if it's a known fact but after self reading and deeper research one discover another openion and get convinced
The would be idol if I take things as ia

 

[Limo]

El Mesiah is not arabic. so mate, if you are Muslim or not I dont care. Just stop stating lies.

What in your mind is the council of nicea????

You crossed the border of respect.
You don't know Arabic at all.
El-mesiah is in quran المسيح
اي الممسوح او الدهون بالبركة
ماده م س ح
مسح يمسح فهو ممسوح اي مسيح

اضيفت الالف و اللام للتعريف علي معين
فاصبح المسيح علما علي اسم الرسول
If you understand any of the above then I'll answer your personal quastions

 

[firedragon]

You crossed the border of respect.
You don't know Arabic at all.
El-mesiah is in quran المسيح
اي الممسوح او الدهون بالبركة
ماده م س ح
مسح يمسح فهو ممسوح اي مسيح

اضيفت الالف و اللام للتعريف علي معين
فاصبح المسيح علما علي اسم الرسول
If you understand any of the above then I'll answer your personal quastions

Mate. You crossed the border of sanity. And you are too arrogant to accept something and garner some knowledge. You are another person who likes to pretend to be a scholar but just an empty vessel that could make a big noise.

المسيح

There is no El in Arabic.
There is no e (like in el mariachi or escape) in Arabic.
Mesiah is not Arabic.

You cut and pasted arabic. Read it again. المسيح is al masih.

Relax and be humble. You will find life much easier to live.

 

[firedragon]

There is no agreement in history, language, and religion
Many of sayings or even research are handled as if it's a known fact but after self reading and deeper research one discover another openion and get convinced
The would be idol if I take things as ia

Yes. You are right.

 

[Limo]

I'm

Mate. You crossed the border of sanity. And you are too arrogant to accept something and garner some knowledge. You are another person who likes to pretend to be a scholar but just an empty vessel that could make a big noise.

المسيح

There is no El in Arabic.
There is no e (like in el mariachi or escape) in Arabic.
Mesiah is not Arabic.

You cut and pasted arabic. Read it again. المسيح is al masih.

Relax and be humble. You will find life much easier to live.

Let us end the discussion here
I'll neither answer nor defend my personal attitude
You don't understand Arabic

 

[mojtaba]

Are you serious?

I do not know what do you mean.
As a Muslim who have read Quran many and many times, I can not say that the verse says that All the Jews had that belief.

Also, it is said in many authentic Shi'i and Sunni Tafseers(Exegesis) by eminent Mofasseerin( Exegetes ) that the verse does not address all the Jews and only addresses those Jews that had that belief.

Good luck!

 

[Limo]

I do not know what do you mean.
As a Muslim who have read Quran many and many times, I can not say that the verse says that All the Jews had that belief.

Also, it is said in many authentic Shi'i and Sunni Tafseers(Exegesis) by eminent Mofasseerin( Exegetes ) that the verse does not address all the Jews and only addresses those Jews that had that belief.

Good luck!

Quick support from life
Not all Christians belief that Elmesiah is God the Son

 

[mojtaba]

There's precious little historical evidence for anything that happened around this time, especially evidence (or lack thereof) that 'proves' something.

There are two verses in Holy Quran that say that there were Jews in the time of Prophet Muhammad(sawaws) that had an exaggerative belief.

Those verses are the verse which is in OP, and the following verse,

Say, ‘O People of the Book[ i.e., Jews and Christians ]! Do not unduly exceed the bounds in your religion and do not follow the fancies of a people who went astray in the past, and led many astray, and [themselves] strayed from the right path.’ (5:77)

These two verses imply that in the time of Prophet Muhammad(sawaws), there were Jews who had exaggerative belief about a human whose name was Uzair( I believe that we can not surely say that Uzair is Ezra, himself ).

 

[mojtaba]

Basically, because you believe the Qur'an must be true, you have to twist the ayah to make it say something it doesn't say.
It makes perfect sense if you say that the Qur'an mistakenly thought that this is what Jews believe, or wanted other people to think so, even though it wasn't true.

That verse is not incorrect. There are two verses in Quran that talk about a group of Jews who were in the time of Prophet Muhammad and had exaggerative belief about a human( see previous post of mine ), but they have indeed became extinct and do not live in our time.
-------------------------------------------

Could you prove for me this silly myth of your book?

Daughters of Lot with child by their father!
Genesis 19
30.And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31.And the first-born said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32.come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33.And they made their father drink wine that night: and the first-born went in, and lay with her father; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34.And it came to pass on the morrow, that the first-born said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35.And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36.Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

 

[firedragon]

I'm

Let us end the discussion here
I'll neither answer nor defend my personal attitude
You don't understand Arabic

If you insist.

 

[Rival]

Even if firedragon didn't understand Arabic, I'm betting that he'd still understand it better than Limo...

Elmesiah.

Lol.

 

[Limo]

If you insist.

better to keep some mutual respect

 

[firedragon]

better to keep some mutual respect

Sure.

 

[Tumah]

I do not know what do you mean.
As a Muslim who have read Quran many and many times, I can not say that the verse says that All the Jews had that belief.

Also, it is said in many authentic Shi'i and Sunni Tafseers(Exegesis) by eminent Mofasseerin( Exegetes ) that the verse does not address all the Jews and only addresses those Jews that had that belief.

Good luck!

I can totally understand that. So then just prove based on your readings and the modasseerin that it says what you say it says. That's all I'm looking for. Someone to show me why I'm wrong, instead of just telling me that I am.

 

[Tumah]

It does not say 'the say' in context.

It does not, that's true. But its easy to understand "they said" in the context as meaning the immediate past and as being current. Just as it means that by the Christians.

 

[Tumah]

That verse is not incorrect. There are two verses in Quran that talk about a group of Jews who were in the time of Prophet Muhammad and had exaggerative belief about a human( see previous post of mine ), but they have indeed became extinct and do not live in our time.

So you are saying that this was a group of Jews and not the whole nation?
Then why does the ayah compare them to the Christians who for the most part all believe that Jesus is the son of god? Why doesn't it make clear that this is only a small group? That would be a great answer, but the language that the Qur'an uses, does not indicate what you are saying.

Could you prove for me this silly myth of your book?

Daughters of Lot with child by their father!
Genesis 19
30.And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31.And the first-born said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32.come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33.And they made their father drink wine that night: and the first-born went in, and lay with her father; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34.And it came to pass on the morrow, that the first-born said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35.And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36.Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

Moab is a contraction of من أب
There's no need to derail this thread with misdirection. Make your own thread.

 

[Tumah]

For that reason God sent many messangers to Jews,one of messanger or Rabbis (I don't know) , considered by Jews in past a son of God.

I mean there is no doubt that Jews in past were being rebellion, that's only reason that God sent many .
No every event registered in Jewish history.


There is much verse in Torah (corrupted Torah of course) mentioned that Jews are sons of God, and some prophets are sons of God.

So It's really doubtful that there were NOT Jews claimed that.

That's not really an answer is it? The prophets that G-d sent were not because the Jews were rebellious. There are many prophecies that have nothing to do with rebellion. And if G-d sends prophets to the rebellious, then where is the prophet that is correcting ISIS and Ahmaddis and all the rest?

Between the last Jewish prophet and Muhammad 1,000 years past. If the Jews were rebellious, why didn't He send more prophets?

It is very doubtful, because all the Jews know that it is a metaphor, because G-d does not impregnate women. Otherwise we would not have such a big problem with Christianity.

Regardless of all this, my argument still stands, because if this was some time in the past, then why does the ayah condemn the Jews for it instead of praising them for fixing the error?