Jordan Peterson and Bill Maher...

[Secret Chief]

Do you think trans-activism is not damaging our society?

Do you? If so, how?

 

[icehorse]

Do you? If so, how?

First let me reiterate, I'm not transphobic. But I disagree with aspects of the trans-activism agenda.

So far so good?

 

[Secret Chief]

First let me reiterate, I'm not transphobic. But I disagree with aspects of the trans-activism agenda.

So far so good?

Fine.

 

[icehorse]

Fine.

I'm sincerely heartened to hear that. That alone puts you well ahead of most people on this forum whom I've debated trans-activism with. thanks!

Okay, so one huge problem I have with the trans-activist agenda is the hugely misogynistic idea that "woman" is a mutable idea that a person can put on or take off like a jacket. This idea is at the heart of undoing all the safe spaces that women have been fighting for and enjoying.

Next is the idea that puberty blockers, hormone therapy, and sometimes surgeries are a good idea to "treat" youths with gender dysphoria. I think it takes no more than common sense to predict that in the years to come we will have thousands and thousands of adults who underwent these interventions as youths, and who will be dealing with horrendous, chronic, medical issues for the rest of their lives. The apologists claim: "these extreme interventions save lives". This is based on the underlying idea that gender dysphoric youths have high rates of suicide or suicidal thoughts, and that if you perform these interventions, the rate of suicides goes down. As far as I can tell, this is the ONLY justification for these extreme interventions. But countries with more evolved healthcare systems than the US, are now questioning the whole "reducing suicides" premise, and are backing away from allowing these extreme interventions.

Next is the fact that trans-activists support and encourage post-modern, post-truth thinking. This orientation would be deadly to society if it were to gain enough traction.

That's probably enough fodder for now

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't see anything to respond here... too broad and too irrelevant to wha we are talking about IMV

You:
Having teachers go through the extra hoop of "who you are today" is silly. Why don't we just go by last names?

Me:
And you think that's what's going on in classrooms? Every day teachers are asking kids who they are today? Is that what you think transgenderism is?
I think you need to get off the far right-wing social media sites.


That's what I'm talking about.
That's why I responded to your post by quoting it and posting a response.

 

[SkepticThinker]

google it. How many teachers fired because they didn't want to be forced? How many people submitted lawsuits?

Google what? Your personal feelings on how people are being "forced" to be polite to others? How should I do that, exactly?

 

[SkepticThinker]

As I see it, and you don't have to agree as I stated that it was my view, you break down the family and you have loss of identity, exponential psychological issues, more stress and therefore more depression et al... the list is extensive IMV

So teaching kids that transgender people exist, has something to do with the "breakdown of the family" .... how?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I jumped in when you were asking about what's going on in classrooms, correct?

My answer is that that's whats happening in classrooms sometimes. I don't think it should EVER be happening.

Where is it happening in classrooms that teachers are asking kids every day "who are you today?"

 

[Shadow Wolf]

First let me reiterate, I'm not transphobic. But I disagree with aspects of the trans-activism agenda.

So far so good?

And yet you do come off as transphobic. It's a medical thing. You don't agree with people getting treated in accordance to what had been found to be the best treatment found for this condition?

 

[metis]

Not denying your value or the value of teachers... "when" - they match accepted values. With the breakdown of family, values are now fluctuating to where you now have teachers promoting identity with the expressed mandate of not including parents... what do you do with that?

I never treaded on the teen's or parent's rights, so I just "go with the flow". If someone want to identify as Godzilla, I'll not say anything against that. Why would I? Why should I?

But I, and every teacher I knew personally, did teach basic humanistic morality, which largely parallels what many of us call "Judeo-Cristian morality", however that being not exclusive to either of them but which parallels almost all religions plus humanism.

Sometimes I see more immorality coming from supposedly "religious" people. Take a look at all those in the "religious right" that endorse some politicians who are as corrupt as the day is long for example. And those of them who tell us that the basic ToE is evil and tell their congregation that. or who criticize a teen's self-identity? or to condemn other religions/denominations as the fundamentalist pastor in the fundamentalist church I grew up in constantly did? Seems to me that they tend to more judgmental and disrespectful than probably most atheists and agnostics. One can see this playing out here daily at RF.

 

[icehorse]

And yet you do come off as transphobic. It's a medical thing. You don't agree with people getting treated in accordance to what had been found to be the best treatment found for this condition?

Can you cite the studies that indicate that these extreme interventions are "the best treatment"?

 

[icehorse]

Where is it happening in classrooms that teachers are asking kids every day "who are you today?"

If I link to instances that are similar but not exactly that, would you be satisfied? In other words, I probably cannot find those exact words, and I do not want to spend any time arguing distinctions without a difference.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If I link to instances that are similar but not exactly that, would you be satisfied? In other words, I probably cannot find those exact words, and I do not want to spend any time arguing distinctions without a difference.

Well, I don't know as I can't really say without seeing them how closely the resemble your claim.

 

[metis]

Next is the idea that puberty blockers, hormone therapy, and sometimes surgeries are a good idea to "treat" youths with gender dysphoria

So, do you want the government to decide for them, thus not the teen, the parents, and their doctor?

The use of hormone suppressants is generally safe, and it gives all the parties involved more time to think things through.

Puberty blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth

Understand how puberty blockers work to suppress puberty. Learn about their benefits, side effects and long-term effects.

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[Kenny]

Superstition and voodoo shouldn't permit teachers to treat students like ****.

irrelevancy gone to seed.

 

[Secret Chief]

Okay, so one huge problem I have with the trans-activist agenda is the hugely misogynistic idea that "woman" is a mutable idea that a person can put on or take off like a jacket. This idea is at the heart of undoing all the safe spaces that women have been fighting for and enjoying.

I don't think I can see this involves misogyny (hatred of women) unless you have some compelling material to show otherwise. And I'm not sure gender is something as easily swappable (is that a word?) as a jacket.
I can see how the push for trans rights can lead to issues around safe spaces. I think it's an area which has yet to be worked through (perhaps like the issue within sports).

Next is the idea that puberty blockers, hormone therapy, and sometimes surgeries are a good idea to "treat" youths with gender dysphoria. I think it takes no more than common sense to predict that in the years to come we will have thousands and thousands of adults who underwent these interventions as youths, and who will be dealing with horrendous, chronic, medical issues for the rest of their lives. The apologists claim: "these extreme interventions save lives". This is based on the underlying idea that gender dysphoric youths have high rates of suicide or suicidal thoughts, and that if you perform these interventions, the rate of suicides goes down. As far as I can tell, this is the ONLY justification for these extreme interventions. But countries with more evolved healthcare systems than the US, are now questioning the whole "reducing suicides" premise, and are backing away from allowing these extreme interventions.

On matters such as this I tend to defer to the informed opinions of scientists, health care workers, psychologists etc and of course the person themself. I don't think there's much long term data currently in some of the areas but I would expect the professionals to offer what they see as the best option/s going forward, based on current information.

- Gender dysphoria - Wikipedia

Next is the fact that trans-activists support and encourage post-modern, post-truth thinking. This orientation would be deadly to society if it were to gain enough traction.

I think I need some more fodder for this part of your post. Thanks!

 

[icehorse]

So, do you want the government to decide for them, thus not the teen, the parents, and their doctor?

The use of hormone suppressants is generally safe, and it gives all the parties involved more time to think things through.

Puberty blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth

Understand how puberty blockers work to suppress puberty. Learn about their benefits, side effects and long-term effects.

www.mayoclinic.org

Most European countries - again with better systems than ours - have a central medical authority that decides what the standard of care should be for various medical issues. The US does NOT have a central authority. Instead we have advocacy groups that push SOC proposals. Most doctors do not have these interventions as their specialities, so the default in most cases is that doctors support each other without needing to have specialized expertise.

One telling example of this is that it was a drug company that pushed the idea that oxycontin was not addictive. With clearly horrific outcomes.

So the reality is that teens and parents do not have the expertise, and frankly most doctors do not either. And if a doctor admits that, they will tend to redirect the family to some sort of "trans clinic". Well guess what kinds of interventions trans clinics like to support?

==

As for hormones being safe, really? Let's pause that question for a minute, and step back: As I understand it, the normal approach for these interventions is to start with puberty blockers and then move on to hormones. Where do you stand on the safety of puberty blockers?

 

[Father Heathen]

irrelevancy gone to seed.

You know precisely what I meant by "superstition and voodoo", but it's true; people's personal beliefs shouldn't prevent them from performing professionally. You wouldn't support a racist teacher mistreating students based on their race, correct? People have a right to their personal beliefs of course, but if it prevents them from doing their duties to expectations, then they shouldn't hold such a position. If christian students were mistreated like LGBT students are due to the prejudices of their teachers, religious conservatives would be screeching and squealing in outrage.

And before you try it; no, school lead/mandated prayer, which violates the establishment clause of the frist amendment, is not an example of persecution.

 

[Kenny]

You:
Having teachers go through the extra hoop of "who you are today" is silly. Why don't we just go by last names?

Me:
And you think that's what's going on in classrooms? Every day teachers are asking kids who they are today? Is that what you think transgenderism is?
I think you need to get off the far right-wing social media sites.


That's what I'm talking about.
That's why I responded to your post by quoting it and posting a response.

Cherry picking on what we are talking about and making broad statements from there but, if you don't realize it, I added some additional information for support

‘There Are Some Hills That Are Worth Dying on,’ Says Teacher Fired Over 'Preferred' Pronouns

Peter Vlaming chose to stand up for his Christian beliefs about men and women. Refusing to use "preferred" pronouns cost him his teaching job.

www.dailysignal.com

Maybe because you need to get off the far left-wing media sites?

 

[icehorse]

I don't think I can see this involves misogyny (hatred of women) unless you have some compelling material to show otherwise. And I'm not sure gender is something as easily swappable (is that a word?) as a jacket.
I can see how the push for trans rights can lead to issues around safe spaces. I think it's an area which has yet to be worked through (perhaps like the issue within sports).

This leads to another concern, the idea that gender and sex are interchangeable ideas. They are not.

As for "working it through", I would say let's not allow men (and that includes trans women), into women's safe spaces until we've worked it through, not while we're working it through.

On matters such as this I tend to defer to the informed opinions of scientists, health care workers, psychologists etc and of course the person themself. I don't think there's much long term data currently in some of the areas but I would expect the professionals to offer what they see as the best option/s going forward, based on current information.

See my post #197.