Jordan Peterson and Bill Maher...

[SomeRandom]

Probably not - so we have to find solutions for trans women that protect them but do not put women at higher risk.

I can agree with that.
It will be a tricky balance to find and I fear no camp will be 100% satisfied for quite a while.
Hopefully we can come to a solution that benefits all.

But I don’t think I’m qualified enough to come up with it. I shall leave that in the hands of governing bodies that oversee such affairs, tbh

 

[icehorse]

I can agree with that.
It will be a tricky balance to find and I fear no camp will be 100% satisfied for quite a while.
Hopefully we can come to a solution that benefits all.

But I don’t think I’m qualified enough to come up with it. I shall leave that in the hands of governing bodies that oversee such affairs, tbh

Well sure. but the "camps" are not anywhere near equal in size. So I think keeping women safe is the more important concern.

Oh, I can just imagine the outrage now (not from you @SomeRandom ). But anytime we're weighing the safety of many, that outweighs the safety of a few. So let's not make women less safe at all, never in the process

 

[SomeRandom]

Well sure. but the "camps" are not anywhere near equal in size. So I think keeping women safe is the more important concern.

Oh, I can just imagine the outrage now (not from you @SomeRandom ). But anytime we're weighing the safety of many, that outweighs the safety of a few. So let's not make women less safe at all, never in the process

I mean okay, I can understand and agree with that in principle. The needs of the many outweigh the few. (Though I will always argue that we should be helping everyone, regardless of their number size.)

My natural aversion to seperate camps may have something to do with the history of the whole “seperate but equal” measures carried out in society over the centuries. If you follow?
And I don’t think a trans person should be made to feel uncomfortable after a traumatic experience just because they’re a minority.
But maybe there is something to be said for some separation in such instances. Without making it a broad statement that causes anyone distress.
The details of how we accomplish that?
Yeah, again I feel underqualified to really address all this.
Because I genuinely can see both sides of the argument here

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well sure. but the "camps" are not anywhere near equal in size. So I think keeping women safe is the more important concern.

Oh, I can just imagine the outrage now (not from you @SomeRandom ). But anytime we're weighing the safety of many, that outweighs the safety of a few. So let's not make women less safe at all, never in the process

Another point on how this is just not new. Trans women have been using the women's restroom for a long time now. It's rather uneventful until someone like you comes along and makes a stink of it.

 

[icehorse]

Another point on how this is just not new. Trans women have been using the women's restroom for a long time now. It's rather uneventful until someone like you comes along and makes a stink of it.

That's not what we're talking about.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Another point on how this is just not new. Trans women have been using the women's restroom for a long time now. It's rather uneventful until someone like you comes along and makes a stink of it.

I have to agree with you on that @Shadow Wolf.

I really don't see anything productive in stoking public fear over transgendered women using public restrooms labeled for women. If anything, all public restrooms should be unisex with secure, individual stalls. When I was over in England last May I saw this sort of public restroom everywhere. I was almost tempted to take a picture of one public restroom in Coventry that was fully open and visible within a museum I was visiting, with the only doors actually being for the individual stalls. This led me to think that the British sure are smarter than a lot of Americans.

You know, back in the early 1920s there was a resurgence in the Ku Klux Klan here in the U.S., fueled in part by the 1915 movie Birth of a Nation which showed the KKK as a noble organization concerned with protecting White women from being assaulted by Black men. The movie in fact depicted just such a scene of a White woman's virtue being threatened by a Black man.

This not only continued to fuel antipathy towards Black folks having equal access to the same facilities as White folks, but the national showings of this movie coincided with a sharp increase in lynchings of Black men.

The vitriol and hysteria that I'm seeing these days regarding the "bathroom issue" makes me very concerned for the safety of transgendered people -- especially in light of how some people claim only to be interested in "protecting" women (à la Birth of a Nation).

 

[anna.]

I have to agree with you on that @Shadow Wolf.

I really don't see anything productive in stoking public fear over transgendered women using public restrooms labeled for women. If anything, all public restrooms should be unisex with secure, individual stalls. When I was over in England last May I saw this sort of public restroom everywhere. I was almost tempted to take a picture of one public restroom in Coventry that was fully open and visible within a museum I was visiting, with the only doors actually being for the individual stalls. This led me to think that the British sure are smarter than a lot of Americans.

You know, back in the early 1920s there was a resurgence in the Ku Klux Klan here in the U.S., fueled in part by the 1915 movie Birth of a Nation which showed the KKK as a noble organization concerned with protecting White women from being assaulted by Black men. The movie in fact depicted just such a scene of a White woman's virtue being threatened by a Black man.

This not only continued to fuel antipathy towards Black folks having equal access to the same facilities as White folks, but the national showings of this movie coincided with a sharp increase in lynchings of Black men.

The vitriol and hysteria that I'm seeing these days regarding the "bathroom issue" makes me very concerned for the safety of transgendered people -- especially in light of how some people claim only to be interested in "protecting" women (à la Birth of a Nation).

Well said!

 

[metis]

Most European countries - again with better systems than ours - have a central medical authority that decides what the standard of care should be for various medical issues. The US does NOT have a central authority. Instead we have advocacy groups that push SOC proposals. Most doctors do not have these interventions as their specialities, so the default in most cases is that doctors support each other without needing to have specialized expertise.

I have long believed through experience that with some issues, it's best to go with specialists. Doing as such saved my life when I was 30.

So the reality is that teens and parents do not have the expertise, and frankly most doctors do not either. And if a doctor admits that, they will tend to redirect the family to some sort of "trans clinic". Well guess what kinds of interventions trans clinics like to support?

So, you actually think the government does with all the pharma and medical lobbyists?

As for hormones being safe, really? Let's pause that question for a minute, and step back: As I understand it, the normal approach for these interventions is to start with puberty blockers and then move on to hormones. Where do you stand on the safety of puberty blockers?

Safety is a relative term because any drugs administered will have some side effects. The doctors well know this, but do you think for one minute the government is primarily made up of medical experts?

I suggest that we mind our own business on this such a personal matter and let teens, parents, and medical personnel make the decisions, OK?

 

[metis]

I think we are missing the point here.

Let me ask a question... do people who deal with gender dysphoria have a root cause of some sort of trauma?

Your gonna have to clarify exactly what you're looking for here, such as trauma cause by what exactly?

 

[metis]

Do any others here notice that self-proclaimed "conservatives" detest BIG GOVERNMENT unless it's something that they want or support from BIG GOVERNMENT?

 

[YmirGF]

Your gonna have to clarify exactly what you're looking for here, such as trauma cause by what exactly?

In all my reading into gender dysphoria, I have not seen mention that trauma is a cause. From what I have read, it appears to be a condition one is born with, sort of like being gay, in that both take time to manifest before the individual is fully aware of their situation. Is that fair, folks?

Do any others here notice that self-proclaimed "conservatives" detest BIG GOVERNMENT unless it's something that they want or support from BIG GOVERNMENT?

I'm a pragmatic realist. Big government is, sad to say, here to stay.

 

[icehorse]

have long believed through experience that with some issues, it's best to go with specialists.

Makes sense in general. But trans is a very rare issue, and there are not a lot of specialists. And - perhaps for political reasons? - a lot of trans clinics have agendas.

So, you actually think the government does with all the pharma and medical lobbyists?

I'm sorry maybe there's a typo? Can you restate this question? thanks

Safety is a relative term because any drugs administered will have some side effects. The doctors well know this, but do you think for one minute the government is primarily made up of medical experts?

I suggest that we mind our own business on this such a personal matter and let teens, parents, and medical personnel make the decisions, OK?

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I'm not suggesting government intervention. I'm saying we should do what many European countries are doing and re-evaluate the efficacy and risks of these extreme interventions and adjust the SOC.

 

[metis]

In all my reading into gender dysphoria, I have not seen mention that trauma is a cause. From what I have read, it appears to be a condition one is born with, sort of like being gay, in that both take time to manifest before the individual is fully aware of their situation. Is that fair, folks?

This why I asked @Kenny to clarify what he was looking for from me.

However, you went a bit too far as the research doesn't state that all of g.d. is genetic as a much smaller percentage is environmental/social. Even with genetic causation, it typically doesn't set in until puberty begins.

 

[metis]

Makes sense in general. But trans is a very rare issue, and there are not a lot of specialists. And - perhaps for political reasons? - a lot of trans clinics have agendas.

Any doctor who exceeds his area of expertise without seeking advice or having the parents and teens switch to a specialist stands the chance of lawsuits with wrong diagnosis. Yes, there are some unscrupulous doctors out there, but that goes beyond the scope of this discussion.

I'm sorry maybe there's a typo? Can you restate this question? thanks

If the teen, parents, and doctors aren't going to be trusted making such decisions, then who does? Seems logical that the only other resort is government.

Hormone suppressants are not radical with youth as my link to the Mayo Clinic pointed out. Matter of fact, our oldest daughter [55] is not taking it as she has breast cancer.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Cherry picking on what we are talking about and making broad statements from there but, if you don't realize it, I added some additional information for support

‘There Are Some Hills That Are Worth Dying on,’ Says Teacher Fired Over 'Preferred' Pronouns

Peter Vlaming chose to stand up for his Christian beliefs about men and women. Refusing to use "preferred" pronouns cost him his teaching job.

www.dailysignal.com

Maybe because you need to get off the far left-wing media sites?

This doesn't seem to have much to do with what I said or asked.

Every conversation I've ever attempted to have with you ends with this dead-end of you refusing to address the point being made or answering any questions about it. I don't know why I do this to myself.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Search engines are your friend, but I'll get you started:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/06/03/schools-gender-identity-transgender-lessons/

"Some lessons are direct: “Who can describe what transgender means?” In other classes, the discussion is more subtle: “Remember, families can come in all shapes and sizes!”
Sometimes teachers simply shift their language to reflect gender diversity that may be in the room. Instead of “Good morning, boys and girls!” the teacher might say, “Good morning, scholars!”

In Florida and several others states, educators are restricted in teaching about gender identity, but elsewhere, teachers are embracing the topic as the number of transgender and gender nonbinary children rises.
Resources and lesson plans for those who want to teach about gender identity are becoming much more common. Seven states now require that curriculums include LGBTQ topics. The National Sex Education Standards, developed by experts and advocacy groups, name gender identity as one of seven essential topics, alongside puberty, consent, sexual orientation and other subjects. And the federal government recommends that schools include gender identity in their sex education programs."

How does this back up your claim about teachers asking kids "who are you today?" .... ???

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think we are missing the point here.

Let me ask a question... do people who deal with gender dysphoria have a root cause of some sort of trauma?

My panic disorder is the result of trauma. What's your point with this question?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Another irrelevant statement.... is it because I hit a nerve?

This was in response to, "How is expecting teachers to perform professionally pushing a personal belief? Don't create a sanctimonious scene. Just do your damn job. That's not an unreasonable expectation."

How on earth is that response irrelevant?

 

[Secret Chief]

I was almost tempted to take a picture of one public restroom in Coventry

Ahhh, bless


They're a coming thing I think. I recently visited a new school (sadly not in Coventry) and the staff toilets were just that....toilets....for anyone and everyone.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do any others here notice that self-proclaimed "conservatives" detest BIG GOVERNMENT unless it's something that they want or support from BIG GOVERNMENT?

And how they LOVE thinking and pretending they know more amd better than the experts.