Jordan Peterson and Bill Maher...

[Shadow Wolf]

Actually, there have been studies to confirm the connections.

The do share.

 

[icehorse]

That's what we've been talking about, along with how you so clearly and obviously just have no idea what you're talking about. You're like a Creationist trying to speak of biology and evolution and using what they think are clever checkmates like the irreducibility complex.
And you come with your "concerns," which again are very obviously biased and not reflecting the larger body of peer reviewed data amd come up with the absolute brilliant point of pointing out trans clinics have agendas. Everyone does. Your conspiracy nonsense, however, isn't it. You sound like a Conservative deriding PP believing abortion is something they push on people.

No, we're talking about normalizing men using women-only spaces.

==

As for your assessment, I'm sorry, I just don't see you as any sort of authority. Go back and read about why European countries are now concluding that the scant few studies that supported the "extreme interventions save lives" claim, are not holding up to strict review.

We know that these extreme measure have serious, permanent, negative side effects. The ONLY reason they should be supported is if in fact they reduce suicide rates. So go find a study that isn't being debunked in Europe that demonstrates how these interventions save lives.

If you cannot do that, then you are supporting the physical crippling of young people.

 

[icehorse]

Hmm I did try looking into the claim that European countries are reevaluating trans health care in minors.
Many articles I could find on the matter are pretty politicised, so I had to do a bit more fact checking than I had hoped lol

The closest I could find was that many European countries were being more cautious in prescribing hormone therapy to minors. But that was largely due to how strict they were about such measures in the first place and that demand had increased more than expected. It seemed to have more to do with how their respective healthcare systems just need more resources to address and study the phenomenon. (Universal health care systems are tax funded, after all. So resources are distributed a little bit unevenly sometimes. And since the trans community is a minority. The resources may reflect that to an extent. If that makes sense?)
But claims they were banning or holding off on the drugs were largely false or misleading according to what I could find.

start here:

Sweden’s Karolinska Ends All Use of Puberty Blockers and Cross-Sex Hormones for Minors Outside of Clinical Studies

 

[SomeRandom]

start here:

Sweden’s Karolinska Ends All Use of Puberty Blockers and Cross-Sex Hormones for Minors Outside of Clinical Studies

Since further evaluation made by Sweden, which your article cites, the recommendations are that puberty blockers are still in use but only for a very select few who meet very stringent requirements.

See here

Summary of Key Recommendations from the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen/NBHW)

Background In February 2022, the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (NBHW) issued an update to its health care service guidelines for children and youth

segm.org

Reevaluation is to be expected in all medicine. And I have to say, Europe is usually a lot more strict about drug prescription in general. At least compared to the US and even Australia to a certain extent (our country had to reevaluate the amount of prescriptions for various pain killers and weirdly enough antibiotics. Guess GPs relied on them a bit too much.)

Europe is not ending the use of such drugs merely being much more stringent, like I previously said

 

[icehorse]

Since further evaluation made by Sweden, which your article cites, the recommendations are that puberty blockers are still in use but only for a very select few who meet very stringent requirements.

See here

Summary of Key Recommendations from the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen/NBHW)

Background In February 2022, the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (NBHW) issued an update to its health care service guidelines for children and youth

segm.org

Reevaluation is to be expected in all medicine. And I have to say, Europe is usually a lot more strict about drug prescription in general. At least compared to the US and even Australia to a certain extent (our country had to reevaluate the amount of prescriptions for various pain killers and weirdly enough antibiotics. Guess GPs relied on them a bit too much.)

Europe is not ending the use of such drugs merely being much more stringent, like I previously said

Did you read the articles linked to in the article I sent you?

And YES!!!! reevaluation is to be expected!!! So if these extreme interventions are of dubious value, how about we stop maiming kids until we know for sure??

 

[Kenny]

But here’s the pertinent question.
Were those traumatic experiences the actual cause of the gender dysphoria or did they occur due to gender dysphoria?

What I mean by that is it’s not a good idea to look at two correlating factors and just presume one caused the other. Indeed the cited studies don’t really seem to speak to the trauma being the actual causal factor. Just that individuals experience them at higher rates. And given the amount of stories there are about kids who are kicked out or otherwise abused due to coming out, it might be a chicken and the egg scenario. And don’t forget that even having gender dysphoria is enough to cause distress and yes even trauma in an individual.

Indeed extensive evaluation by qualified mental health experts (again a mandatory prerequisite in many countries before gender affirming care can take place) would be able to not only identify such instances, but seperate them.
Any shrink worth their salt would be able to tell if trauma was actually the cause and so treat it properly. Resulting in detransitioning. Which does happen just not very often, interestingly
And conversely they would be able to identify when the trauma is just a correlation, meaning once the trauma is dealt with in a healthy manner, the person still has gender dysphoria.

I’m not saying the two don’t have links to each other. Again even having gender dysphoria is known to case trauma in indivduals.
But it’s much more complex than it simply being a causal factor alone. Something which I don’t think these studies are saying. But I’m no scientist so

Certainly more studies are always great... and I am not the expert but do ask the questions to learn.

https://www.nctsn.org/sites/default/files/resources/special-resource/identifying-the-intersection-of-trauma-and-sexual-orientation-and-gender-indentity-key-considerations.pdf

 

[SomeRandom]

Did you read the articles linked to in the article I sent you?

And YES!!!! reevaluation is to be expected!!! So if these extreme interventions are of dubious value, how about we stop maiming kids until we know for sure??

Yes. But I’ll admit to it being rather early in the morning here lol

Also, maiming kids?
Sorry but I’m not aware of trans surgery being performed on minors. At least not in most countries.
Intersex surgery, sure. But that’s typically performed at birth.
But as far as I’m aware, gender affirming surgery has been very very strict on it’s guidelines and only done in extreme cases on those under 18 (and even then, it’s 16 and older only.)
I think waiting till 18, excepting extreme circumstances, is the official stance of most authorities worldwide. At least as far as I’m aware

 

[SomeRandom]

Certainly more studies are always great... and I am not the expert but do ask the questions to learn.

https://www.nctsn.org/sites/default/files/resources/special-resource/identifying-the-intersection-of-trauma-and-sexual-orientation-and-gender-indentity-key-considerations.pdf

Fair enough.
I’m no expert so I feel a little under qualified to “assess” studies, of any kind if I’m being honest lol

 

[icehorse]

Yes. But I’ll admit to it being rather early in the morning here lol

Also, maiming kids?
Sorry but I’m not aware of trans surgery being performed on minors. At least not in most countries.
Intersex surgery, sure. But that’s typically performed at birth.
But as far as I’m aware, gender affirming surgery has been very very strict on it’s guidelines and only done in extreme cases on those under 18 (and even then, it’s 16 and older only.)
I think waiting till 18, excepting extreme circumstances, is the official stance of most authorities worldwide. At least as far as I’m aware

"maiming" i maybe over the top a bit, but honestly i'm not sure. Is a lifetime of early onset osteoperosis perhaps a form of maiming?

Late edit: I looked up "maim": "to wound or injure (someone) so that part of the body is permanently damaged."

So I'll stand by "maim". If we give kids drugs that limit bone growth and cause osteoperosis, I think we're maiming them.

 

[Secret Chief]

Haven't we gone off topic from restrooms?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Haven't we gone off topic from restrooms?

Yup, this is the Restroom Forum.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Did you read the articles linked to in the article I sent you?

And YES!!!! reevaluation is to be expected!!! So if these extreme interventions are of dubious value, how about we stop maiming kids until we know for sure??

Reevaluations constantly happen in medicine and science. And even still they don't agree with you. They still give puberty blocker, medical transitions still happen.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"maiming" i maybe over the top a bit, but honestly i'm not sure. Is a lifetime of early onset osteoperosis perhaps a form of maiming?

Late edit: I looked up "maim": "to wound or injure (someone) so that part of the body is permanently damaged."

So I'll stand by "maim". If we give kids drugs that limit bone growth and cause osteoperosis, I think we're maiming them.

How do you feel about giving NSAIDs to kids?

 

[icehorse]

How do you feel about giving NSAIDs to kids?

You mean drugs like aspirin and ibuprofen? I think they can be over-prescribed, but in general I have no problem with that..

 

[icehorse]

Reevaluations constantly happen in medicine and science. And even still they don't agree with you. They still give puberty blocker, medical transitions still happen.

I'll ask you the same question: Did you read the article I linked to in #283? Did you read the articles that that article linked to?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You mean drugs like aspirin and ibuprofen? I think they can be over-prescribed, but in general I have no problem with that..

Over prescribed? Those are most typically OTC but they come with a risk of cardiovasuclar amd gastrointestinal issues. They aren't perfectly safe, they too can "maim." This is why we let real experts study this amd review the data. Amd knowing of possible side effects is very important to know and a great thing to know so that area if concern can be monitores and treated if need be.

I'll ask you the same question: Did you read the article I linked to in #283? Did you read the articles that that article linked to?

Yes. That's why I'm pointing out revisions happen (I was recently temporarily deferred from selling my plasma because of policy revisions and renewals). Amd that the treatments in question still happen even after these revisions. To be frank, the entire history of medical transitioning has been over a century of revisions, and that's why today we see such a small regret* rate. And thats really just the history of medicine. I was diagnosed with a stomach ucler as a child due to a very stressful childhood. But that doesn't happen anymore today because it was brazenly demonstrated that it is actually bacteria and not stress that cause stomach ulcers.
*Not to be confused with detransition.

 

[SomeRandom]

"maiming" i maybe over the top a bit, but honestly i'm not sure. Is a lifetime of early onset osteoperosis perhaps a form of maiming?

Late edit: I looked up "maim": "to wound or injure (someone) so that part of the body is permanently damaged."

So I'll stand by "maim". If we give kids drugs that limit bone growth and cause osteoperosis, I think we're maiming them.

The unfortunate reality of medicine in general is that they can have unforeseen outcomes. And even an aspirin can very negatively affect some people.

Take our over reliance on antibiotics, for instance. For decades this was casually prescribed by GPs without consequence. Now we understand that this may have in fact caused so called “super bugs” viruses that are far more resilient due to this over reliance. As a result GPs (at least around here) are more reluctant to prescribe them.
This is an instance of medical science doing it’s job, is it not?

I share your concern, truly I do.
But the medical authorities are being extremely cautious. Perhaps even more cautious than with other drugs that have more noticeable detriments, one could argue.
And yet still puberty blockers are being prescribed, even after reevaluation. Just with a far stricter criteria in order to meet for them to be given. And it was already pretty strict to begin with. Likely far more strict than the US. But I suspect that may be due to other reasons (universal models vs well the US model.)
Is this not science working as intended? It’s been reevaluated, it still will be. The affects are being studied and whilst not as accessible as before, such drugs are still being used. Showing that they’ve already jumped a number of hurdles.

Medicine is always a working progress. We should be cautious always. But not so cautious as to shut off something that is potentially beneficial in the long run at the same time

 

[icehorse]

Medicine is always a working progress. We should be cautious always. But not so cautious as to shut off something that is potentially beneficial in the long run at the same time

I think the key idea here is your phrase "potentially beneficial".

Sadly, medicine, especially in the US, is fraught with profiteering and advocacy. So I think the reality is that the current SOC was developed by advocates, and for political reasons, it will be hard to overturn. But I'd bet large amounts of money that these policies will be overturned, and we'll be left with thousands of people who were damaged for life in the hopes of "potential benefits".

In general, medicine doesn't work like that. But with this politically charged topic, for some reason everyone is willing to risk thousands and thousands of young people's lives for "potential benefits". That's not standard practice in medicine.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think the key idea here is your phrase "potentially beneficial".

Sadly, medicine, especially in the US, is fraught with profiteering and advocacy. So I think the reality is that the current SOC was developed by advocates, and for political reasons, it will be hard to overturn. But I'd bet large amounts of money that these policies will be overturned, and we'll be left with thousands of people who were damaged for life in the hopes of "potential benefits".

In general, medicine doesn't work like that. But with this politically charged topic, for some reason everyone is willing to risk thousands and thousands of young people's lives for "potential benefits". That's not standard practice in medicine.

No, actually the SOC was developped a long time ago because treatment outcomes were poor and something had to be done. And it's actually been through several revisions over the years. Like it used to be if you were MtF you had to be attracted to men and have a pink color job. For good reason those reuirements were done away with.
So how much you want to bet?

 

[icehorse]

No, actually the SOC was developped a long time ago because treatment outcomes were poor and something had to be done.

That doesn't sound very reassuring

Anyway, I think we're going around in circles. I believe I understand your perspective.

We probably need to agree to disagree.

And we can do a gentle-person's wager, for dubious bragging rights.