Jordan Peterson and Bill Maher...

[Shadow Wolf]

That doesn't sound very reassuring

Just because you don't know much of the topic. The SOC came to be and now the regret rate stands at 1%. That's very low for any medical treatment, and it happened because of the SOC.

 

[icehorse]

Just because you don't know much of the topic. The SOC came to be and now the regret rate stands at 1%. That's very low for any medical treatment, and it happened because of the SOC.

Okay, how old is the latest version of the SOC? I ask because regret is a thing that can happen years and years after an intervention. And we know that for the first year or two after such interventions there is a sort of temporary "high" that's common.

 

[metis]

Trauma as in a traumatic event that affects your identity - emotional and/or physical trauma... not trying to push an agenda, but if there is an emotional and/or physical trauma that has caused gender dysphoria -- this is what I see happening.

But how do you "see [this] happening"?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Certainly more studies are always great... and I am not the expert but do ask the questions to learn.

https://www.nctsn.org/sites/default/files/resources/special-resource/identifying-the-intersection-of-trauma-and-sexual-orientation-and-gender-indentity-key-considerations.pdf

This doesn't say what you claimed either.
This doesn't talk about "people who deal with gender dysphoria have a root cause of some sort of trauma."

It's talking about how LGBTQ+ people experience trauma as a result of the way they are treated by their parents, by society and by their peers, where they face increased incidences of bullying, social stigma, parental rejection, physical and sexual harrassment and hate crimes
In other words, it's not trauma that's causing them to be transgender. It's the way they are treated by the people around them and society as a whole, that causes them trauma. As a result, this community experiences increased rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, drug abuse and PTSD.

So, you've got it backwards, according to this article anyway.
Perhaps you should refrain from the attempts at armchair psychology for a while and just stick to your day job.

 

[SkepticThinker]

But how do you "see [this] happening"?

By misunderstanding the articles he reads?

 

[metis]

There is enough evidence and studies that supports the position in the diagnosis of identity dysphoria.

Could you post one or more?

Either way, why should you or I or the government choose the solution for someone else' personal issues?

 

[Father Heathen]

By misunderstanding the articles he reads?

Assuming he reads.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Okay, how old is the latest version of the SOC? I ask because regret is a thing that can happen years and years after an intervention. And we know that for the first year or two after such interventions there is a sort of temporary "high" that's common.

Less than a year ago is when the current one was released.
Amd please actually educate yourself. A year ir two "after these interventions?" Most have been on hormones and living as their identified sex longer than that, and a minimim of a year at least is required to get genital surgery.

 

[Kenny]

But how do you "see [this] happening"?

By previous studies that I have posted... I think we have closed our eyes and simply said "It's normal". It is very interesting that "normal" all of a sudden appeared when it was very few and far between just 15 years ago. IMV

 

[Kenny]

Could you post one or more?

Either way, why should you or I or the government choose the solution for someone else' personal issues?

But the government has chosen the solution, haven't they? Make it normal? Put it in the educational system? Put it into law as a protected group?

 

[SkepticThinker]

So I get a "creative" rating and no response.

No Kenny, it's your claim that was "creative."
I posted about what the article was actually about. And it doesn't back up your claim. Sorry.

 

[metis]

But the government has chosen the solution, haven't they? Make it normal? Put it in the educational system? Put it into law as a protected group?

At this point the government has chosen to stay out of it as it is and should be a private family decision.

BTW, your "conservative small government" credentials have been revoked.

 

[metis]

According to Dr. André Van Mol—the co-chair of the American College of Pediatricians’ Committee on Adolescent Sexuality and a contributor to Public Discourse on transgender issues—in the overwhelming majority of cases, the desire to switch one’s gender identity is closely connected to adverse experiences in childhood.

According to studies I've seen in "Scientific American", sexual identity and the #1 cause of being gay is due to hormones, not environmental, and I remember the number being 80% in at least one article I read.

Let me ask you, do you get turned on seeing a man naked? In my case I find that repulsive because I have no such attraction. But, if my hormones were more towards being attracted to other men, then I'm quite certain I would be turned on by them-- so you're safe.

So, this is what you seem to be missing, and I repeatedly suggest that it's best to let people and families make their own decisions versus BIG GOVERNMENT.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

According to studies I've seen in "Scientific American", sexual identity and the #1 cause of being gay is due to hormones, not environmental, and I remember the number being 80% in at least one article I read.

Let me ask you, do you get turned on seeing a man naked? In my case I find that repulsive because I have no such attraction. But, if my hormones were more towards being attracted to other men, then I'm quite certain I would be turned on by them-- so you're safe.

So, this is what you seem to be missing, and I repeatedly suggest that it's best to let people and families make their own decisions versus BIG GOVERNMENT.

Of course peer review and metastudies throw this trauma hypothesis out the window. Along with how if it were true we could expect gender dysphoria to be common among trauma patients.
But we have seen gender dysphoria and autism have a high degree of comorbidity. So high that if a patient presents with one at least some therapists will automatically screen for the other.

 

[Whateverist]

That was pretty funny but boy do I dislike both of them. Had to hold my nose to enjoy the yucks.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think the key idea here is your phrase "potentially beneficial".

Sadly, medicine, especially in the US, is fraught with profiteering and advocacy. So I think the reality is that the current SOC was developed by advocates, and for political reasons, it will be hard to overturn. But I'd bet large amounts of money that these policies will be overturned, and we'll be left with thousands of people who were damaged for life in the hopes of "potential benefits".

In general, medicine doesn't work like that. But with this politically charged topic, for some reason everyone is willing to risk thousands and thousands of young people's lives for "potential benefits". That's not standard practice in medicine.

Well that’s America.
No offence but the rest of the world doesn’t treat medicine like you guys do. At least not to that extent
In fact my government won’t even buy supplies of medication (in general) until it all proves to be cost efficient first. Not even kidding. If it can’t, too bad. We have cheaper alternatives or we’ll make our own

Here all our collective taxes pay for medicine, doctors and even many specialists. I can’t even remember having to pay to see my GP. Hell I just recently had a bulk billed eye exam at my local optometrist, all paid for by my taxes so I left the place without so much as looking at a bill. It was already paid for.
Indeed I largely suspect that even the times I do pay, for prescription meds or even picking up some paracetamol/aspirin at the shops, I likely pay a fraction for it compared to my US brethren

I mean I suppose you can choose to pay a bit more for “skipping the queue” here. If you like

We literally require all our GPs to refer patients to specialists, if that is indeed required.

All this to say, puberty blockers are used by all universal health care models, as far as I’m aware. All paid for through tax and emphasise the methodical utilisation of various medical specialists, in this instance the Mental Health Sector specifically. I can’t exactly accuse European shrinks of pocketing big pharma money the way one could likely do to a US shrink. Again no offence. And I’m sure it happens, not saying otherwise.

I can understand being wholly skeptical of the US model of medicine and why one would question if it’s actually working around the scientific model correctly. Because well it doesn’t exactly have that reputation overseas, if you follow
(A bit sad, you could argue. Given the prestige and esteem many US hospitals and medical universities/colleges have in the actual field of medical science.)
But I would wager that the rest of the world finds the idea of putting profit ahead of health to be abhorrent. Regardless of political affiliation.
What’s that old meme?
If Breaking Bad were made in any other industrialised country, it would be a slice of life drama about a man getting cancer treatment
(Sorry I just couldn’t resist)

Sorry but the rest of the worlds doctors have already reached the conclusion. I can trust that multiple countries have followed the scientific model correctly, perhaps even rejecting payment lol
No but seriously if multiple countries have studies that basically say the same thing, then I will go with those guys. At least until a reevaluation proves them entirely wrong. Which can happen in science.
But like I said, no country had actually banned the drugs we currently prescribe to trans affected youth. They were actually just overwhelmed by the demand which contradicted their already very strict criteria and there clearly needs to be further study on the drugs overall. You know that’s what the article you linked to me literally said, right? Well the amendments that it made, but still. That’s from the Swedes.
Either way, such drugs have been deemed safe to use, only under very strict circumstances. And I am quite happy to let the experts figure out who exactly qualifies. Lord knows my drunk idiot self can’t lol

 

[SomeRandom]

Of course peer review and metastudies throw this trauma hypothesis out the window. Along with how if it were true we could expect gender dysphoria to be common among trauma patients.
But we have seen gender dysphoria and autism have a high degree of comorbidity. So high that if a patient presents with one at least some therapists will automatically screen for the other.

Huh, that’s interesting. The link between the autism spectrum and gender dysphoria.
Is it due to both being “outside the norm” in terms of neurology?
Or however it’s supposed to be phrased properly. You know what I mean, hopefully

(And for the record I am absolutely not using the phrase “outside the norm” in a negative light, at all. Just to make that clear.)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Huh, that’s interesting. The link between the autism spectrum and gender dysphoria.
Is it due to both being “outside the norm” in terms of neurology?
Or however it’s supposed to be phrased properly. You know what I mean, hopefully

(And for the record I am absolutely not using the phrase “outside the norm” in a negative light, at all. Just to make that clear.)

To my best knowledge hasn't exactly been found. It is my belief it probably happens because we see and process so much of society and its various things differently than neurotyoicals.

 

[Kenny]

At this point the government has chosen to stay out of it as it is and should be a private family decision.

BTW, your "conservative small government" credentials have been revoked.

I disagree... it is all over the government both in policy and in helps.

 

[SomeRandom]

To my best knowledge hasn't exactly been found. It is my belief it probably happens because we see and process so much of society and its various things differently than neurotyoicals.

Ahh that makes sense. Strangely lol