Jordan Peterson and Bill Maher...

[Kenny]

But it's the teen's body that matters, and yet you're willing to have the government(s) call the shots and not the family and their doctors. Why would you want this, which is a big puzzle to me.

Sorry, Ken, but you're really not making any sense on this. It seems to me you are taking the position that you are, but it appears not being based on the well-being of the teen but more on some other issue(s).

As willing as I am for government to intervene in abuse.... yes. In as much as I agree that the government should be involved in when a youth should drive, drink et al.... yes. To me, it makes sense.

 

[metis]

based?

Who has made it a "political issue"? I'm not as I believe it should be a family medical issue that they and their own doctor decides upon, so it's your position that is "political".

Thus, there's something that you're not saying here in terms of your own motivation for your position. Is your own opinion more religion based?

 

[metis]

As willing as I am for government to intervene in abuse.... yes.

But where's the "abuse"? If the family and doctor feel that it's best for the teen who also wants the procedure, it seems the "abuse" is more by those who want to negate what those three want that they think is best.

As I mentioned in my last post, there's something missing in your argument here because it's not adding up.

 

[metis]

Surgery performed on children is not a typical practice in gender affirming care.

It's only done in roughly 1.5% of cases dealing with transgender teens from one source I read.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Question....

Take an anorexic woman who weighs 90 pounds but should weigh 140.
She believes in her mind she's over weight/fat.
Is that a physical problem or a mental problem.. IOW do you treat her mentally or physically?

Both.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If it were so simple.

1) If someone does have gender dysphoria, is it psychological or physical? if psychological (as it was determined before) - it should be treated in light of that.
2) Is it increased awareness? Or is it promoted in school as "an acceptable alternative" and children naturally assume that the teacher is an authority and then consider themselves as candidates? Are there abusive situations that makes one think that? Has COVID seclusion influenced it?

It is never as simple as one thinks IMV.



That is true... but I don't think that cancer factors in as a substantial differential. If we don't want "politicians" involved, should we eliminate medicare? (I'm just saying that politicians is not part of this discussion and will detour what we really are talking about.

IMV these two points have no substantial impact on the issue.



But we are talking about surgical here which I think should be made when children are adults because we do have statistical data that says most people have "gender questions" but revert back to biological gender when they pass through that stage.

If one is an adult, it won't matter what politicians opinions are. It's your body.



I think we can look at history. No matter what the statistics are today, proportions are still good. If you have increase cancer, you have increase in cancer treatment. We said abortion should be in rare cases and now we have abortion on demand. It went to "a few" to millions. Not trying to go into abortion but rather just saying that you open the door and it exponentially increases.

We obviously have statistical information that declares that gender dysphoria is exponentially increasing and it will therefore increase in surgical applications. As de-transitioners increase with bodies now mutilated, they have no recourse. We have no statistical data of the realities of long term effects at this level and yet we are acting as if we know it all IMV.

Then you have culture, as it gets promoted via media, politically, educationally, - you can't help but know that it is changing culture where children are encouraged to "experiment"... except this experiment is placing thoughts that are right, at least IMV.

What exactly qualifies you to be anything like an expert on this subject? And what exactly qualifies you to make other peoples' healthcare decisions for them? Should we all come into your doctor's office with you and decide what kind of medical procedures you should be getting, on your behalf? And should we do that based on our reading and misunderstanding of studies on the subject, as you've done here with your trauma claims?

 

[Kenny]

Who has made it a "political issue"? I'm not as I believe it should be a family medical issue that they and their own doctor decides upon, so it's your position that is "political".

Thus, there's something that you're not saying here in terms of your own motivation for your position. Is your own opinion more religion based?

Not religious based at all. It is the proliferation of child abuse in the name of medical advancement. It reminds me of the experimentation of Nazis on human bodies, to be honest.

Reconstructing a body foreign to XX and XY is, IMV, not normal, not natural, not science and not loving. Let's look at the psychological reasons and treat the issue and not bandaid it.

It is political... just look at all the politicians talking about it.

 

[Kenny]

What exactly qualifies you to be anything like an expert on this subject? And what exactly qualifies you to make other peoples' healthcare decisions for them? Should we all come into your doctor's office with you and decide what kind of medical procedures you should be getting, on your behalf? And should we do that based on our reading and misunderstanding of studies on the subject, as you've done here with your trauma claims?

I'm sorry... what qualifies anyone to say that a father who is pushing a child isn't child abuse? Are you saying you are not qualified to determine that? And what medical ailment is there that requires someone to add an appendage to a woman? Or add a pelvis to a man?

Actually, for you to even list your questions is a glaring admission that you have no point to make. IMV

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm sorry... what qualifies anyone to say that a father who is pushing a child isn't child abuse? Are you saying you are not qualified to determine that?

We're not talking about a father beating on his child, are we? Funny you should bring that up with your views on corporal punishment being what they are though.

And what medical ailment is there that requires someone to add an appendage to a woman?

Someone who just accidentally chopped her finger off.

Or add a pelvis to a man?

Someone who had their pelvis crushed in an accident.

Actually, for you to even list your questions is a glaring admission that you have no point to make. IMV

Those questions ARE my point. The fact that you didn't answer them speaks volumes (i.e. we already know the answer, because it's obvious!)


Do you want me in your doctor's office with you when you're making medical decisions, on your behalf? Let's add another element and imagine that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and I've read and misunderstood the studies involved in determining what course of medical and psychological action should be taken on your behalf. Do you think I have the right to be there? If your answer is no, then the implication should be obvious.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not religious based at all. It is the proliferation of child abuse in the name of medical advancement. It reminds me of the experimentation of Nazis on human bodies, to be honest.

Reconstructing a body foreign to XX and XY is, IMV, not normal, not natural, not science and not loving. Let's look at the psychological reasons and treat the issue and not bandaid it.

It is political... just look at all the politicians talking about it.

You didn't spend one second watching or read about those videos I provided to you with interviews of the mother of trans kids, did you?
You don't have to admit it because it's obvious when you refer to as child abuse. It should be quite obvious to anyone who actually watched those interviews that to ignore a child, or downplay their feelings in such a situation is the child abuse. Listening to your child and doing your best to help them, is NOT child abuse and is the more loving approach, of the two, and leads to better results, when it comes to the child's well-being.

 

[Kenny]

We're not talking about a father beating on his child, are we? Funny you should bring that up with your views on corporal punishment being what they are though.

Someone who just accidentally chopped her finger off.

Someone who had their pelvis crushed in an accident.


Those questions ARE my point. The fact that you didn't answer them speaks volumes (i.e. we already know the answer, because it's obvious!)


Do you want me in your doctor's office with you when you're making medical decisions, on your behalf? Let's add another element and imagine that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and I've read and misunderstood the studies involved in determining what course of medical and psychological action should be taken on your behalf. Do you think I have the right to be there? If your answer is no, then the implication should be obvious.

Changing goal posts.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Changing goal posts.

What is? Spell it out for me.

The "goal post" is, do you want me in your doctor's office making decisions on your behalf, on things about you and the subject matter that I know absolutely nothing about? What on earth would qualify me to do that?

Why can't you ever just address the point and answer the question?

 

[metis]

Not religious based at all. It is the proliferation of child abuse in the name of medical advancement. It reminds me of the experimentation of Nazis on human bodies, to be honest.

Not even remotely close as that was done against people's wishes, which is exactly what you are proposing btw.

Reconstructing a body foreign to XX and XY is, IMV, not normal, not natural, not science and not loving.

Wearing clothes and driving cars is not normal either under the vast majority of time humans have been around. No, I think you're really using a "religious" approach and then applying politics to it. Whether you're doing that accidentally or intentionally I do not know.

Secondly, what you keep on ignoring is the hormone balance, whereas it's the hormones that mostly determines sex drive.

Let's look at the psychological reasons and treat the issue and not bandaid it.

And you think that the governments can better determine that than the psychologists and physicians? Really???

It is political... just look at all the politicians talking about it.

It really wasn't much "political" until DeSantis and his minions decided to make it a part of their "cultures war" agenda.

 

[Secret Chief]

It reminds me of the experimentation of Nazis on human bodies, to be honest.

That is an obscene attempt at a comparison.

 

[Kenny]

What is? Spell it out for me.

The "goal post" is, do you want me in your doctor's office making decisions on your behalf, on things about you and the subject matter that I know absolutely nothing about? What on earth would qualify me to do that?

Why can't you ever just address the point and answer the question?

wrong...

We are talking about children who are not at an age to make long term decisions unless you think children are somehow the all knowing and don't instruction.

Therefore, there is no point and there is no question.

 

[Kenny]

That is an obscene attempt at a comparison.

I don't think so.

 

[metis]

We are talking about children who are not at an age to make long term decisions unless you think children are somehow the all knowing and don't instruction.

But they don't make it by themselves!

 

[Kenny]

But they don't make it by themselves!

And abuse isn't done by themselves either. IMV

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We obviously have statistical information that declares that gender dysphoria is exponentially increasing

No. We don't. You amd your sources just don't know what that word means.
It's no different than when conservatives cried homosexuality was increasing in drives just because people felt more safe stepping out if the closet.

 

[Kenny]

No. We don't. You amd your sources just don't know what that word means.
It's no different than when conservatives cried homosexuality was increasing in drives just because people felt more safe stepping out if the closet.

Have no idea where you are coming from and where you are going with this.