Judaisms Core

[Jimmy]

This thread was silly for me to make. My apologies

 

[Ebionite]

Okay, so let's see what you mean. Please transliterate=(the process of transferring a word from the alphabet of one language to another) into English letters the following, based on your claim of pronunciation, so I can understand how you are saying the text should be correctly pronounced. Also, please mark ever place where a pause or stop is added.

View attachment 94322

I'm ignoring the vowels, first line only

ויאמר יהוה אל

transliteration: WYAMR YHWH AL or WYAMRh YHWH AL (R could be soft Rh or hard R)

Transliteration introduces artifacts in pronunciation, eg א is described as breath - AL could be pronounced al or el

א,ח,ה,ע - pronounced with throat
ג,י,כ,ק - pronounced with palate
ד,ט,ל,נ,ת - pronounced with tongue
ז,ס,ש,ר,צ - pronounced with teeth
ב,ו,מ,פ - pronounced with lips

My source says nothing about stops so I'm following your text for that.

 

[GoodAttention]

Greetings. No, I don't have it out for Terah. Let’s look at what various commentaries say about him.

Rashi states the Midrash and Aggada that Terah took Avram to Nimrud due to Avram’s actions against Terah’s avodah zara. Of course we all know the story of what Nimrud is stated to have judged against Avram. Thus, the Midrash and Aggada doesn’t paint Terah during that time in a favourable light.

View attachment 94315

Further to this, Rashi later addresses the concept of what Terah’s death is mentioned before Avram leaving Haran. I.e. Avram’s time in Haran would have placed him leaving before Terah’s death.

View attachment 94316
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Ramban brings up both the Rashi above and other perspectives that state that during Terah’s life time he was not in the right situation with Hashem. The claim is made that because of the affect of his son Avraham, Terah made teshuva.

View attachment 94318View attachment 94319

Those are just two sources for what Terah’s situation was. The Rashi above also addresses the issue of Avraham leaving Haran, before Terah’s death and its justification on the past events involving Terah’s death.

C

Greetings. No, I don't have it out for Terah. Let’s look at what various commentaries say about him.

Rashi states the Midrash and Aggada that Terah took Avram to Nimrud due to Avram’s actions against Terah’s avodah zara. Of course we all know the story of what Nimrud is stated to have judged against Avram. Thus, the Midrash and Aggada doesn’t paint Terah during that time in a favourable light.

View attachment 94315

Further to this, Rashi later addresses the concept of what Terah’s death is mentioned before Avram leaving Haran. I.e. Avram’s time in Haran would have placed him leaving before Terah’s death.

View attachment 94316
View attachment 94317

Ramban brings up both the Rashi above and other perspectives that state that during Terah’s life time he was not in the right situation with Hashem. The claim is made that because of the affect of his son Avraham, Terah made teshuva.

View attachment 94318View attachment 94319

Those are just two sources for what Terah’s situation was. The Rashi above also addresses the issue of Avraham leaving Haran, before Terah’s death and its justification on the past events involving Terah’s death.

Is there a reason you write Haran instead of Harran?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

This thread was silly for me to make. My apologies

No. It is not a problem. As far as I am concerned you had a question, and you got it answered. And then you got a lot of answers to things you didn't ask.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm ignoring the vowels, first line only

ויאמר יהוה אל

transliteration: WYAMR YHWH AL or WYAMRh YHWH AL (R could be soft Rh or hard R)

Okay. Thank you for provding this. So, now lets look at this in detail.

1. When you write "WYAMR" how do you pronounce the WY part of the word and the MR? Meaning, how does one say that in verbal speach?
2. The use of an "A" is undertood to be a representation of a vowel in English. Your use of it can be misleading in the word "WYAMR" because it would lead someone to think that they can prononce the YAM part like the word yam in English.
3. Also, you use of "A" to express (א) also brings up the problem of associating the "ah" or "aw" sound in English with (א). Most transliterate (א) into English by the mark (`) to denote that it is not a vowel and that as a consanent there is no equivalent in English.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Is there a reason you write Haran instead of Harran?

Because In transliteration doubling an R is really relevant.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

א,ח,ה,ע - pronounced with throat
ג,י,כ,ק - pronounced with palate
ד,ט,ל,נ,ת - pronounced with tongue
ז,ס,ש,ר,צ - pronounced with teeth
ב,ו,מ,פ - pronounced with lips

My source says nothing about stops so I'm following your text for that.

Okay, with this one.

1. You state,
2. א,ח,ה,ע - pronounced with throat. What is the name fo the source you use to come to this conclusion?
   • How old is it? What language was it originally written in?
   • Do you read it in the original language it was written?
   • How does it express this in the original language it was written in?
   • How did you learn to read it in the original language it was written in?
   • Does the statement "pronounced with throat" actually appear in your source?
   • What words in the original are used to describe the throat and pronunciation?
3. If you source was originally in Hebrew, and you are reading it in English, who translated so you were able to read it?
   • How did they determine what the emaning of the words were in the text meant? I.e. did they learn from someone who knew Hebrew or did they make up their own pronunciation?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm ignoring the vowels, first line only

ויאמר יהוה אל

transliteration: WYAMR YHWH AL or WYAMRh YHWH AL (R could be soft Rh or hard R)

Also, in your tranliteration how do you dinstinquish between (אל) and (על)?

Also, if you had to teach someone how to say WYAMR "verbally" how would you instruct them on to actually say it? Do you have a recording of you or someone who holds by the same method reading a Torah text or speaking in Hebrew in the way you state?

Thanks.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I understood it fine. Vowels have been used to corrupt the text in Genesis 16:12:

​

Do you consider this to be the case with the Samaritan Torah also? They don't have Masoritic texts. They have thier own system and thie pronounciation is different from Jewish Hebrew.

 

[GoodAttention]

Because In transliteration doubling an R is really relevant.

So where is Haran?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So where is Haran?

See the map below. I circled it in green.

 

[GoodAttention]

See the map below. I circled it in green.

View attachment 94323

Is that name any different to Haran Abraham's brother?

If not it is interesting you acknowledge one Haran both person and place, but others differentiate Haran and Harran.

 

[Ebionite]

Okay. Thank you for provding this. So, now lets look at this in detail.

1. When you write "WYAMR" how do you pronounce the WY part of the word and the MR? Meaning, how does one say that in verbal speach?
2. The use of an "A" is undertood to be a representation of a vowel in English. Your use of it can be misleading in the word "WYAMR" because it would lead someone to think that they can prononce the YAM part like the word yam in English.
3. Also, you use of "A" to express (א) also brings up the problem of associating the "ah" or "aw" sound in English with (א). Most transliterate (א) into English by the mark (`) to denote that it is not a vowel and that as a consanent there is no equivalent in English.

1. The meaning of the word is solely from the letters, so the what would be called English vowels don't convey useful information. WY would be pronounced as a single syllable 'way'. Adding alelph as conventional smooth breathing would then be
wayee, adding mem would be wayee-em, and then adding resh would be wayee-emar. (four syllables from five letters).
2. As you say the letter A is treated as a vowel in english so it's not great for transliteration and leads to the problem you mention. AFAIK there isn't a standard way of transliterating Hebrew to English because of the gutterals and the different treatment of vowels.
3. Using ` instead of A avoids the problem but doesn't mean much unless you know about the transliteration scheme.

The source for this is the Sefer Yetzirah, there are a few different versions and various English translations are available.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Is the name any different to Haran Abraham's brother?

Yes, see below.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

1. The meaning of the word is solely from the letters, so the what would be called English vowels don't convey useful information. WY would be pronounced as a single syllable 'way'. Adding alelph as conventional smooth breathing would then be
wayee, adding mem would be wayee-em, and then adding resh would be wayee-emar. (four syllables from five letters).

So, what you just described a vowel convention. Thus, you do have a system of vowels that you incorporate whether you have actually created symbols for them or not. Thus, the only way one would know how to pronounce the text is for someone to have taught them how to do it. Your disagreement with the Masorites is then your personal interpretation of how you think ancient Hebrew as pronounced because if I understand you correctly no one taught you how to pronounce it. Including the Sefer Yetzirah because the Sefer Yitzrah you does not describe how to pronounce the sounds needed to make a word work in Herbew. It further describes consanents in a way that only someone who already knows Hebrew would be able to understand.

If you are reading in English translation of it then the person who translated it for you is the one providing you, correctly or incorrectly, with their intpretation of the text. Virtually every translation into English of the Sefer Yitzrah is derived from the rabbis who did commentaries of it.

 

[GoodAttention]

Appreciated thanks.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

1. The meaning of the word is solely from the letters, so the what would be called English vowels don't convey useful information. WY would be pronounced as a single syllable 'way'. Adding alelph as conventional smooth breathing would then be
wayee, adding mem would be wayee-em, and then adding resh would be wayee-emar. (four syllables from five letters).

So summerizing what you wrote.

1. Your system does have vowels that are not diferrent than what Jews and Smaritans use.
   • Thus, you simply haven't created symbols to represent the "a" or "ee" that you placed above in your transliteration where you wrote "wayee-emar".
   • In contrast what you wrote has respresentations in the Tiverya system, the Bavel system, and the Samaritan systems. Thus, there is really no difference in what you saying than what exists in the above systems.

Bavli Vowel System

Samaritan Vowel system

 

[1213]

...Further, the Torah never claims that "anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” That statement, and that claim is an invention of the authors of the Jesus story.

So, what is the correct meaning of the word adultery, by the Torah?

 

[1213]

...Just telling you that we Torah based Jews are basing our concepts on the Hebrew Torah, in Hebrew.

Thank you, that is exactly what I wanted to hear.

 

[1213]

....The Jewish man in that story, being the sone of Jewish parents, is required to respect and them and take care of their need. Because the Torah at Mount Sinai was given after Avram ben-Terahh once can't apply the direct command that Hashem to Avram, specifically to do.

So, do I understand correctly, one doesn't need to respect his parents, if they can be considered non-Jews?

If it Christianity it is acceptable logic for a person to abandon his parents for what someone claims to be a mission and burying them is not acceptable in Christianity that is something outside of the Hebrew Torah that Jews received and something else.

I don't think there is anything that says it is not acceptable. But, perhaps in some cases it is enough if the "dead" do the burial. In some cases it may be that it is not necessary for some person to do it, if there are others to do it. I think different case would be, if there would be no one else to do it.