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Judaisms Core

1213

Well-Known Member
“‘Follow me.’ But the man replied, ‘Lord, first let me go and bury my father.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God’” (Luke 9:59-60).

The priority is to do our religious duty which God Almighty has commanded. That duty, as written in the Torah, is to bury the dead, not to preach and convert. In order to change this, it would require another event of a magnitude equal or greater than the Exodus from Egypt and the revelation at Sinai.​
Ok, thanks for your answer, nice that you got the scriptures also.

I think Jesus event was of a that magnitude. But, perhaps that is just matter of opinion.
If you can locate something, anything, written in the Torah, which directs, or even implies, that a Jewish person needs to "proclaim the Kingdom of God"? That would be very useful in regard to the argument Ehav is making. I am saying this with nothing but love and affection in my heart.​
I think interesting thing about that is, if nothing can be true, that has not been said already, there could not be anything in the Bible or Torah, because everything there is first time said, would be something that was not said before and could not be accepted by that standard.

But, what do you think, if there would be a situation where person would have to chose to save many people, or to bury one dead person, what would be the right choice?
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

There's several ways to show that this is anti-Torah. The best example, in my opinion, is Hannah. She did not need Christ to come to The Father. But, really, if this statement is true, literally true, then each and every prophet prior to Jesus' earthly ministry are false.
Not necessary. It is possible Jesus is the mediator, or the person who makes it possible and still the other prophets are also true. Also, it can be from that point onward.
Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. (Mark 11:13-14)

This one should be simple. It is prohibited per Moses to destroy a fruit tree out of spite. Deuteronomy 20:19. And I would also argue, it's a very poor example for a minister of God. Leviticus 19:2: "You shall be holy like I, Jehovah, am holy". Destroying the fruit tree? Which God Almighty is blossoming is not holy like Jehovah. It's the opposite.​
I don't think it was out of spite. It was because Jesus saw it was not going to produce fruit. And in a way the same is with people and God, who is not going to spare people who are not righteous.
On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.
I agree this is a grey area. The argument that is made about this, that I am aware of, is: Jesus has become a stumbling block for the blind. That is prohibited. Leviticus 19:14. I think you'll find that there is commentary which flips this into a positive? I'm not sure what you think of that commentary. There is so much variance in the interpretation of the Greek scriptures. Some, I have seen praising Jesus, as the stumbling block for the Jews. They cheer him on. "Yes! There! Jesus is a stumbling block for the Jews!" And they applaud. This is not OK.​
Isaiah? 5:20? "Woe to those who flip-flop" like this. A stumbling block is bitter, not sweet. Being a stumbling block for the Jew? It's anti-Torah.​
I think Jesus did right thing, God's temple should not be a marketplace. Does the Torah say the temple is or can be a marketplace?

And I agree, stumbling block is bitter, because it means in this case people hurt themselves. And by what I understand, also in NT it is seen as a sad thing that the people stumble. It would be better, if they would not do so. However the problem in this is not Jesus, but the thing that causes Jews to stumble on him. And in this case I think it is the "blindness" that causes people to stumble. And there is nothing to cheer about if people don't see and therefore stumble.
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)
This is a grey area as well. I understand what is meant by it, but, if it is understood literally? This is witch-craft. They are buying their way into heaven. They are attempting to subvert God's will and replace it with their own. Elsewhere, I hope we agree, Jesus is teaching the the Christian to petition: "THY will be done, heavenly Father". THY will. If this verse is read in isolation or interpreted literally, the aspiring Christian is being lead astray. It stops being a petition for THY will, and it becomes a sort of recipe for MY will to be done. And that is the root of idol worship and witch-craft.​
Interesting interpretation. I think it does not mean that person buys a way to heaven in that. Firstly, it says they will have treasure in heaven, which is not the same as getting into heaven. And also, I think it is not because of the giving money, but because understanding what is good and right.

I think it is good to notice, Jesus says also:

Sell your possessions and give alms. Make for yourselves purses that do not grow old, an unfailing treasure in Heaven, where a thief cannot come near, nor moth can corrupt.
Luke 12:33

And I understand the meaning is, good deeds are greater treasure than money. Is it not true?
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. (Matthew 19:28-30)

This one is tricky. The fault is in the middle. "for MY sake". That's a no-no. Leviticus 10:3. Glory goes to Jehovah, ONLY. There's nothing wrong with approaching the Lord, but it must be done in the right way. This is wrong. Verses like this are reasons why people confuse Jesus with God Almighty.
I think it is unfortunate that people confuse Jesus and God, even though Jesus clearly teaches there is only one true God who is greater than him.

I don't think that scripture means glory doesn't go to God only, for example because Jesus himself gives glory to God, by saying that he could do nothing without God.

Jesus therefore answered them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does like-wise.
John 5:19
This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
I sincerely, hope this explanation was clear. God bless you and yours,
Thank you. I wish the same for you.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I agree. I've been a prolific writer all my life. In fact my minor at the University was English Composition. I think anyone could compare my writing back in 1980 to now and see the same style.
I am not saying it is the same with all people. Perhaps not all people make progress, some could be very good right from the beginning. I know that I was much poorer before and I think there is still room for improvement. But maybe I am the only one who needs improvement.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So, do I understand correctly, one doesn't need to respect his parents, if they can be considered non-Jews?
No. If a non-Jew were to want to convert to the Torah, which would mean joining the Israeli / Jewish people in the Torah there is a requirement for them to move into the area where Jews live and live in the ways that Torah based Jews live. There is a clear understanding that the non-Jewish has no requirement to become Jewish, thus converting to the Torah is not a requirement for the non-Jewish to uproot themselves from their people and their culture to take on the Jewish people and culture as their own.

Knowing up front that if the family of said potential convert, in thier practices, are going to influence said person if they were to become a Jew there is an understanding that a certain level seperation would have to happen in that circumstance.

For example, if one has a family who as a regular practice are involved in illegal activity at home - of course said person, in order to not be caught up on the wrong side of the law, would need to seperate themselves from their families criminal activities. This could mean not meeting wtih them at their homes, this could mean not inviting them over, this could mean making sure thier children don't have anything to do with the family, or this could mean that they have to cut off all ties. There is a perspective that in reality because the parents are required by the 7 mitzvoth / Noachide laws to not do crime that a child who moves away from this type of family is actually following the baseline respect for parents since most parents would not want to bring harm on their children. I.e. any good parent, even if they were involved in wrong doing would at their core not want to harm their children. By the child seperating themselves from their parents bad behavior they are doing the will of the parents.

Now taking all of that back to Avraham ben-Terah (Abraham). One of the sources I posted earlier, in Hebrew, states that Avraham went back to Haran to bury his father when his father died. When he returned to Canaan from that event he found that Sarah had passed away.

Post Mount Sinai, when Jews received the Torah we received more commands concerning the above about how we treat our parents. We have a Torah based requirement to do more when it comes to our parents. Even if parents caused us large amounts of damage we are required to respect them. The reason is because at their core they also descend from Israelis who received the Torah at Mount Sinai so they also have the same baseline. Further, there is a mitzvah for ever Jew to try and return every Jew who errors to the right path of the Torah.

In fact, even if our parents never taught us any Torah we Jews are required to refer to our parents as "My father / mother -- my teacher [of Torah]." The Noachide laws don't have all of these additional details, though some of them can derived form the mitzvah for the non-Jewish world to have laws of justice.

Going back to Jesus, I am agiain going to state. I don't beleive that most of the stories about Jesus in the NT happened. Yet, if I wanted to be theoretical. A man tells his rabbi that he wants to bury his father and then follow him, according to the Torah and according to what we find about the prophet Eliyahu and Elisha's interactiion the response of a valid teacher of Torah would be. "Take care of your family's need. They gave you life and gave you the Torah that you have learned until this point. Follow the mitzvoth of the rabbis of this generation. There is no such as abandon your family to follow me. Follow Hashem and the Torah that Hashem gave our ancestors at Mount Sinai. Burry your father, and give him the honor that Jewish children are required to give to their parents."
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So, what is the correct meaning of the word adultery, by the Torah?
There is a word in Torah Hebrew called (ניאוף). It is often translated as "adultry" into English, but it doesn't mean what most Christians mean when they use the word. (ניאוף) is when a) a man has relations with another man's wife or b) when a married woman has relations with a man who is not her husband.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But, perhaps in some cases it is enough if the "dead" do the burial. In some cases it may be that it is not necessary for some person to do it, if there are others to do it. I think different case would be, if there would be no one else to do it.
This would be considered a very disrespectful way for a Jew to address our parents. That is according to the Torah. From the Torah perspective, if this story did happen it is a requirement for the man to not follow Jesus anywhere. We see historically that the Jews who did follow the historical Jesus all disappeared off the historical map within 2 generations of their start. Maybe, they followed the thinking of abandoning their families and when their movement fizzled out in the Jewish community since they had no one to rely on.

The following may be of interest to you.

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Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Please explain how?
They're inconsistent because the character of the righteous servant of Psalm 35 is not the same as the character of the crucified man of Psalm 22 and Psalm 69. The righteous servant is jubilant, but the crucified man is in anguish. Isaiah 53 describes the righteous servant being led as a lamb to the slaughter but taken from prison and from judgment, i.e. rescued from a fate which was like a sacrificial death. The name Yeshua [ישוע] is from the stem ישע, meaning to rescue or emancipate.

For more context, there is a second man associated with the "good shepherd", and he has wounds which are like those caused by crucifixion but are not, i.e. he could be mistaken for the crucified man.

And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends.
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of armies: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zechariah 13:6-7

The high priest who was clothed in iniquity relates to the righteous servant who bears iniquity. Again the idea of being rescued is present, this time as being taken from the fire:

And he shewed me Yahushua [יהושע] the high priest standing before the angel of YHWH, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
And YHWH said unto Satan, YHWH rebuke thee, O Satan; even YHWH that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Now Yahushua [יהושע] was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
Zechariah 3:1-4

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I think interesting thing about that is, if nothing can be true, that has not been said already, there could not be anything in the Bible or Torah, because everything there is first time said, would be something that was not said before and could not be accepted by that standard.
Think it about along these lines. Everything we Torah based Jews have to do in life must be based on the standards of Hashem. The basis for those standards come from the Torah. Hashem even warned us that there would be people coming up claiming that Hashem told them something or that the understanding of the Torah that was passed down through the generations is to be reinterprted and so forth. So, whenever we Torah based Jews analyze something, including a claim, the Torah is the foundation.

The same way that Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) used the Torah (written and oral) that he received from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) is the same way modern day Torah based Jews respond to our current reality. The same way that the Judges who were successful in leading our ancestors away from the influences of avodah zara / paganim / etc. did so using the Torah (written and oral) that he received from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) and Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) is the same way that Torah based Jews manage ourselves in the current age. The same that King Dawith (David) and King Shelomo (Solomon) to write their thoughts and investigations into the Torah various leaders / rabbis our people have done the same throughout our generations. All of them used the foundations of the Torah to know how to confront their realities and the same holds true today.

For example, the Judicial system we Jews use even today is based on the commands given in the Torah. What may be hard for some people to understand about our reaction with the Torah is the concept of it being the foundation. Meaning that Hasham didn't the Torah as some magic key that unlocks the secrets of the universe and also how to bake the perfect pie. It instead gives the foundations for Jews to investigate how the universe works and develop for ourselves the perfect pie.

So, what we are saying is several things:
  1. The Jesus presented in the NT did not historically exist. This is the first red flag.
  2. If we are brought the text of the NT, we read it we will have some challenges and questions on its questionable origins. Written in Greek, authors we can't identify as Jews we of, etc. Red flag number two.
  3. We find statements, made to be foundations of the Christian mindset, in the NT texts that clearly contradict the foundations of the Hebrew text of the Torah and the oral transmission found in all ancient Jewish communities.
  4. We look at how the original Jewish Christians, using thieir own Christian wisdom, only survived for ~2 generations.
So, in short it could be that you may not have Jewish communities in action with the Torah so that may be the disconnect. The following may help.



 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Sorry. I wasn't having a debate with him. He started with responses about Paul in connection with the OP and then he asked some other questions. My apologies.

Bye bye.
I get it. No big deal. It’s just there are people on here who don’t like this thread and your posts were keeping it in the limelight. Haha have a good one.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
....For example, if one has a family who as a regular practice are involved in illegal activity at home - of course said person, in order to not be caught up on the wrong side of the law, would need to seperate themselves from their families criminal activities. This could mean not meeting wtih them at their homes, this could mean not inviting them over, this could mean making sure thier children don't have anything to do with the family, or this could mean that they have to cut off all ties... ...There is no such as abandon your family to follow me. Follow Hashem and the Torah that Hashem gave our ancestors at Mount Sinai. Burry your father, and give him the honor that Jewish children are required to give to their parents."...
Sorry, somehow that seems contradictory. And it could be said that in the case of Jesus, they did right thing when left following Jesus. But, I can understand this depends greatly on was Jesus correct or not.
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
There is a word in Torah Hebrew called (ניאוף). It is often translated as "adultry" into English, but it doesn't mean what most Christians mean when they use the word. (ניאוף) is when a) a man has relations with another man's wife or b) when a married woman has relations with a man who is not her husband.
Hmmm... ...I think that is the same meaning as in the words of Jesus.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
They're inconsistent because the character of the righteous servant of Psalm 35 is not the same as the character of the crucified man of Psalm 22 and Psalm 69.
Sorry, I am not sure why do you think Paul is saying they are the same.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...Everything we Torah based Jews have to do in life must be based on the standards of Hashem. The basis for those standards come from the Torah...
I think that is good and right.
The Jesus presented in the NT did not historically exist.
How do you know? And how do you explain that we have his teachings still, if he didn't exist?
We find statements, made to be foundations of the Christian mindset, in the NT texts that clearly contradict the foundations of the Hebrew text of the Torah and the oral transmission found in all ancient Jewish communities.
I think it is bad and sad that Christians have many non-Biblical doctrines that lead people astray. Christians should be loyal to Jesus and his words.
We look at how the original Jewish Christians, using thieir own Christian wisdom, only survived for ~2 generations.
Why do you believe there was original Christians, if there was no Jesus?
 
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