Judaisms Core

[Ebionite]

Sorry, I am not sure why do you think Paul is saying they are the same.

Paul doesn't say anything about those Psalms AFAIK. I believe that Christianity generally associates Psalm 22,69 and Isaiah 53 with Christ, though.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Sorry, somehow that seems contradictory. And it could be said that in the case of Jesus, they did right thing when left following Jesus. But, I can understand this depends greatly on was Jesus correct or not.

My understanding is that this conversation is outside of the specture of the OP.

My suggestion is that you go to the following link. Read through the informaiton that was already discussed there, if you still have questions ask it in that thread and I will answer it there.

Davidic King/Mashiahh according to Torath Mosheh Sources

In another thread the question was asked about Judaism's concept of "messiah." In this thread I will only be presenting what Torath Mosheh sources state on the matter of a future Dadivic king/leader who is espected to lead according to Torath Mosheh. Note: This information only covers what can...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[dybmh]

This is where I need to add potentially pagan information! Given it is the Hittities that are using the term "mighty prince" or "prince of God", they should also provide the explanation.

"The gods, the Sun-God and the Storm-God, have entrusted to me, the king, the land and my household, so that I, the king, should protect my land and my household, for myself." Hittite Old Kingdom ritual saying.

The king being referred to here would be Terah, although Harran was never a kingdom as such. Terah's wealth, evidenced through Abraham, and possession of land, evidenced by his burial in Harran, could suggest the term "prince of God" being used respectfully by the Hittites

Thank you. Fascinating. I'm so glad you're here. I hope you feel at home in this virtual religious community.

It is worse to fear the pagan idol than it is to worship it. To deny it exists is to fear its existence.

Agreed. I had to think about it, though. Thank you. However, I am distinguishing between a rational realization ( disillusionment ) and denial.

Fear God alone by accepting this reality is his creation and our history, pagan, chosen, or otherwise.

Yes!

Those who spit on Terah also spit on his/their children's faces.

Yes. That's a really good point. I'm going to try to keep that in mind, day to day, moment to moment. Thank you. Very useful. Practical. Kind. And smart.

 

[dybmh]

This thread was silly for me to make. My apologies

But we're having fun here...

 

[metis]

What is the point you are trying to make? Are you denying that she was a necromancer? Are you denying that she is not practicing Judaism?

That she is a woman is irrelevant.

Metis: Genesis 3:5. The serpent? Elohim in that verse is conjugated plural as well. I think there's other examples ... searching ... Yes! Laban. The assembly at the golden calf. That's a better example. The prohibition of graven images. The other nations. Jezebel.

The gender doesn't matter. What matters is: is the speaker a positive role model? Are we Jews supposed to emulate the serpent's speech?

I get the strong impression we're miscommunicating, and I don't know how to fix it, nor do I have the time.

Take care.

 

[dybmh]

They are different because the Masoertic vowels are used to add another layer of meaning to the text.

The words always had vowels. See below. How does this happen if the words didn't have vowels?

The masoretes added nothing. The just included what was already there and spoken, repeatedly for over 1000 years

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Exodus​

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4:11​

ויאמר יהוה אליו מי שם פה לאדם או מי־ישום אלם או חרש או פקח או עור הלא אנכי יהוה׃​

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And the Lord said to him, Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Is it not I the Lord?​

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4:12​

ועתה לך ואנכי אהיה עם־פיך והוריתיך אשר תדבר׃​

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Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth, and teach you what you shall say.​

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4:13​

ויאמר בי אדני שלח־נא ביד־תשלח׃​

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And he said, O my Lord, send, I beseech you, by the hand of him whom you will send.​

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4:14​

ויחר־אף יהוה במשה ויאמר הלא אהרן אחיך הלוי ידעתי כי־דבר ידבר הוא וגם הנה־הוא יצא לקראתך וראך ושמח בלבו׃​

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And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite your brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he comes forth to meet you; and when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart.​

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4:15​

ודברת אליו ושמת את־הדברים בפיו ואנכי אהיה עם־פיך ועם־פיהו והוריתי אתכם את אשר תעשון׃​

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And you shall speak to him, and put words in his mouth; and I will be with your mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what you shall do.​

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Are you denying that she is not practicing Judaism?

Talk about "practicing Judaism" in the 11 century BCE is nonsense.

 

[YoursTrue]

No. If a non-Jew were to want to convert to the Torah, which would mean joining the Israeli / Jewish people in the Torah there is a requirement for them to move into the area where Jews live and live in the ways that Torah based Jews live. There is a clear understanding that the non-Jewish has no requirement to become Jewish, thus converting to the Torah is not a requirement for the non-Jewish to uproot themselves from their people and their culture to take on the Jewish people and culture as their own.

Knowing up front that if the family of said potential convert, in thier practices, are going to influence said person if they were to become a Jew there is an understanding that a certain level seperation would have to happen in that circumstance.

For example, if one has a family who as a regular practice are involved in illegal activity at home - of course said person, in order to not be caught up on the wrong side of the law, would need to seperate themselves from their families criminal activities. This could mean not meeting wtih them at their homes, this could mean not inviting them over, this could mean making sure thier children don't have anything to do with the family, or this could mean that they have to cut off all ties. There is a perspective that in reality because the parents are required by the 7 mitzvoth / Noachide laws to not do crime that a child who moves away from this type of family is actually following the baseline respect for parents since most parents would not want to bring harm on their children. I.e. any good parent, even if they were involved in wrong doing would at their core not want to harm their children. By the child seperating themselves from their parents bad behavior they are doing the will of the parents.

Now taking all of that back to Avraham ben-Terah (Abraham). One of the sources I posted earlier, in Hebrew, states that Avraham went back to Haran to bury his father when his father died. When he returned to Canaan from that event he found that Sarah had passed away.

Post Mount Sinai, when Jews received the Torah we received more commands concerning the above about how we treat our parents. We have a Torah based requirement to do more when it comes to our parents. Even if parents caused us large amounts of damage we are required to respect them. The reason is because at their core they also descend from Israelis who received the Torah at Mount Sinai so they also have the same baseline. Further, there is a mitzvah for ever Jew to try and return every Jew who errors to the right path of the Torah.

In fact, even if our parents never taught us any Torah we Jews are required to refer to our parents as "My father / mother -- my teacher [of Torah]." The Noachide laws don't have all of these additional details, though some of them can derived form the mitzvah for the non-Jewish world to have laws of justice.

Going back to Jesus, I am agiain going to state. I don't beleive that most of the stories about Jesus in the NT happened. Yet, if I wanted to be theoretical. A man tells his rabbi that he wants to bury his father and then follow him, according to the Torah and according to what we find about the prophet Eliyahu and Elisha's interactiion the response of a valid teacher of Torah would be. "Take care of your family's need. They gave you life and gave you the Torah that you have learned until this point. Follow the mitzvoth of the rabbis of this generation. There is no such as abandon your family to follow me. Follow Hashem and the Torah that Hashem gave our ancestors at Mount Sinai. Burry your father, and give him the honor that Jewish children are required to give to their parents."

Well, here you write an interesting post and I do have at least one question. OK -- what would the purpose be or the benefit be for a Jew to follow the Torah?

 

[dybmh]

I get the strong impression we're miscommunicating, and I don't know how to fix it, nor do I have the time.

Take care.

You brought commentary to make a point that Elohim is plural. But you forgot to take into account that the individual you are quoting is a witch practicing necromancy.

You also neglected that there are other examples of Elohim conjugated as plural. When it is referring to divine powers, plural, the words are overwhelming attributed to Pagans.

Christians, who are desperate to justify their Trinity, do this all the time. But it's unnecessary. The Trinity is not Elohim. That is something else entirely. The God-head is different. Not Elohim.

You don't have to believe me, but, making this "Elohim is plural in the Torah" argument will fail everytime under rational analysis by those of us who can read the language. Christians, in the majority cannot. So they get , forgive me, enraptured by Wikipedia and non-Jewish commentary which validates their desire for including a Trinity in the Torah. It's a fail to anyone other than Christian believers.

You don't have time because spending the time on this will shatter your illusion. But, like I said, there is nothing wrong with the Trinity. It's just misunderstood.

 

[dybmh]

Talk about "practicing Judaism" in the 11 century BCE is nonsense.

That's because you don't know what Judaism is, Jay.

You poor thing. So lost. So alone. Come. Snuggle into my armpit. I'll tell you a story. It begins:

בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ׃

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... I'll tell you a story. It begins:

בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ׃

I'm pleased to see you acknowledge it as a story. We might even agree on the the translation of the intro.

 

[dybmh]

I'm pleased to see you acknowledge it as a story.

Too bad you don't know what it means.

We might even agree on the the translation of the intro.

I'm not reading a translation. You can't read Hebrew, can you? You don't know what Judaism is, do you? You don't know how to practice Judaism, right? No one taught you.

You're angry, and you are feeling excluded. You are feeling excluded from our Joy. Therefore all you have left are "sour grapes". Hopefully you know that story. You're demonstrating your anger with God. So all you can do is complain and blame. You're showing your jealousy. You cannot participate. You don't know how. All that's left is complaining and criticizing.

No one likes that, Jay. Religious Jews are fun. We are lovable. People like us. No one likes what you post here. Unless they themselves need to complain and blame. Even then, your posts are shallow, superficial, headlines. Your posts here are nothing more than politically motivated rubbish.

 

[Link]

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Exodus​

​

4:11​

ויאמר יהוה אליו מי שם פה לאדם או מי־ישום אלם או חרש או פקח או עור הלא אנכי יהוה׃​

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And the Lord said to him, Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Is it not I the Lord?​

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4:12​

ועתה לך ואנכי אהיה עם־פיך והוריתיך אשר תדבר׃​

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Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth, and teach you what you shall say.​

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4:13​

ויאמר בי אדני שלח־נא ביד־תשלח׃​

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And he said, O my Lord, send, I beseech you, by the hand of him whom you will send.​

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4:14​

ויחר־אף יהוה במשה ויאמר הלא אהרן אחיך הלוי ידעתי כי־דבר ידבר הוא וגם הנה־הוא יצא לקראתך וראך ושמח בלבו׃​

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And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite your brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he comes forth to meet you; and when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart.​

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4:15​

ודברת אליו ושמת את־הדברים בפיו ואנכי אהיה עם־פיך ועם־פיהו והוריתי אתכם את אשר תעשון׃​

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And you shall speak to him, and put words in his mouth; and I will be with your mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what you shall do.​

I think a lot of the Quran is a commentary about these verses.

I think the one who God will send meant by Musa (a) was Imam Mahdi (a), but God got angry at him waiting and looking that far ahead and said you have Aaron (a) your brother who you should prepare the people to accept and prepare for the immanent future. The prayer of Musa (a) in the Quran is submission to God with regards to this.

I believe the fulfillment of removing the knot of Musa's (a) tongue which is also expressed as people putting their hands on the mouth of Messengers, was with Imam Mohamad Al-Baqir (a) in one way and in another way it will occur fully to the world and truth will prevail and secrets unveiled with Imam Mahdi (a).

Musa (a) had a lot of wisdom he could not pass on explicitly but God at angry at him waiting for Imam Mahdi (a) and not hoping for immanent victory with Haroun (a) and said you should hope enlightenment takes place in your time and even more so with Haroun (a) after you.

 

[dybmh]

I think a lot of the Quran is a commentary about these verses.

Hello Link. Peace to you.

I think the one who God will send meant by Musa (a) was Imam Mahdi (a), but God got angry at him waiting and looking that far ahead and said you have Aaron (a) your brother who you should prepare the people to accept and prepare for the immanent future. The prayer of Musa (a) in the Quran is submission to God with regards to this.

I believe the fulfillment of removing the knot of Musa's (a) tongue which is also expressed as people putting their hands on the mouth of Messengers, was with Imam Mohamad Al-Baqir (a) in one way and in another way it will occur fully to the world and truth will prevail and secrets unveiled with Imam Mahdi (a).

Musa (a) had a lot of wisdom he could not pass on explicitly but God at angry at him waiting for Imam Mahdi (a) and not hoping for immanent victory with Haroun (a) and said you should hope enlightenment takes place in your time and even more so with Haroun (a) after you.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Link]

Hello Link. Peace to you.

Peace to you too. It's probably hard for both of us saying this to each other in these trying times of political turmoil, but I hope you find peace and guidance and peace is upon who follows the guidance.

Thanks for sharing.

You're welcome.

 

[metis]

You don't have time because spending the time on this will shatter your illusion. But, like I said, there is nothing wrong with the Trinity. It's just misunderstood.

I'm not a Christian.

 

[dybmh]

acknowledge it as a story

Friends, readers of this thread.

Please ignore what Jay has written here. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Religious Jews do not nad have never in our entire collection of commentary considered the story in the Torah to be literal. That is insane.

The only way to describe divine creation is through metaphor.

The. Only. Way. Is. Metaphor.

 

[dybmh]

I'm not a Christian.

Great. Do you read Hebrew? If not, then you should trust me and the others who practice Judaism and study the written Torah in the original language, daily.

Elohim referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is singular. The only ones who do not do that are Pagan. Arguing with us via wikipedia is foolish to the nth degree.

 

[metis]

Too bad you don't know what it means.



I'm not reading a translation. You can't read Hebrew, can you? You don't know what Judaism is, do you? You don't know how to practice Judaism, right? No one taught you.

You're angry, and you are feeling excluded. You are feeling excluded from our Joy. Therefore all you have left are "sour grapes". Hopefully you know that story. You're demonstrating your anger with God. So all you can do is complain and blame. You're showing your jealousy. You cannot participate. You don't know how. All that's left is complaining and criticizing.

No one likes that, Jay. Religious Jews are fun. We are lovable. People like us. No one likes what you post here. Unless they themselves need to complain and blame. Even then, your posts are shallow, superficial, headlines. Your posts here are nothing more than politically motivated rubbish.

View attachment 94398

Even though the above wasn't addressed to me, I can help but notice the nastiness and arrogance of your tone. Why? Is this your m.o.?

Again, we're dealing with "commentary", and "commentary" implies there can be differences of opinion as there has been at least from 200+ b.c.e. Thus, strutting around like a peacock is not compatible with the purpose of commentary. In science, as a comparison, we use "peer review", which is actually quite similar in purpose.

Anyhow, maybe tone it down a bit.

 

[metis]

Elohim referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is singular.

Yes, but the question is why is the form plural??? Even though I don't get my "theology" from Wiki, if you had gotten off your high horse and checked some of the links and where they're from, maybe you would actually realize that you're barking up the wrong tree.

Anyhow, know-it-all-ism is the enemy of serious theology. The end.