LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[painted wolf]

You missed it again, God crated/design them male and female, there not other gender in humans. You can check that any time.

Obviously you have never heard of XXY or XYY or other natural born intersexual individuals.

Intersexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obviously God is a little more flexible than you seem to think.

wa:do

 

[gnomon]

Or here,
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/current-events/72975-gay-advocates-protest-marriage-ban-across.html

Or here,
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/72783-intersex-marriage.html

Or here,
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/theological-concepts/60129-theology-intersex.html


There were others but those threads are locked.

Posted out of sheer frustration that this subject is ignored.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not this love, it ain’t!

I have to say: it's a great comfort having you here to point out the errors of the Bible. Where would we be without you?

1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels, not to mention the things of this life?

Romans 14:4 (emphasis mine): Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Get off the monkey issue will you, it was an allegory meant to dramatize a point and besides a monkey can be trained to sign its name and can show extreme affection.

Can a trained monkey, say, legally lease a car?

Lets go with 40-year-old men and 10 year old girls who love each other dearly, how about two severely mentally challenged individuals who insist on being left alone because they refuse to acknowledge the trials and pitfalls of such an arrangment,

Would a car lease signed by a 10-year-old girl or a severely mentally challenged individual be enforceable?

what about the rights of a child who deserves both a mother and father,

I've found that usually this line of argument is based on stereotypes and sexism, but setting that aside for a moment, your choices are not between a given child having a mother and a father or having two parents of the same sex. In the same-sex marriage question, your choice is between the child having two unmarried parents of the same sex or two married parents of the same sex. That's it; that's all.

Do you think that children deserve to have parents who are married?

will it be OK to adopt Islamic attitudes toward women (the world is rife with men and women that support that stance), how about, how about, how about.

Which attitudes would those be, and how do they relate to same-sex marriage?

What I am trying to say is that pushing the envelope never stops, yesterday’s absolute taboos are now social norms and the envelope continues to expand until the time-tested values upon which our nation was founded are buried so deeply in "wisdom be damned" attitudes that we will all suffer, ultimately faring no better than did ancient Rome or Greece, but hey, as it was so insightfully pointed out to me, we all go to go sometime and what fun is building something if you can't tear it down and start again.

I'm not so sure that yesterday's taboos are now social norms, but I am certain that in many cases, the opposite has happened: spousal abuse used to be considered fair game as comedic material; now it's considered abhorrent. Smoking used to be common; it's becoming more and more rare. Decades ago, drunk driving and "3 martini lunches" were considered par for the course by many; now, they're considered dangerous activities and signs of a serious problem.

 

[Evandr]

Is heterosexuality a lifestyle?

gnomon, private lifestyles have nothing to do with it, wisdom does. It is hard to discuss this issue with most who intensely support it because they have not had the experiences, the background, the learning that many in my circles have had, not from man but from a living God – learning that one must seek and then properly prepare themselves to receive. God lives my friend and He does speak with his children, often in ways that many cannot comprehend but when He speaks I must listen. I suspect that many will make the same claim; it does not matter; all I can testify to is what I know by my own experience. I concede that there are many in my circles that simply ride the limelight of others but there are those of us who have an understanding born of our diligence in keeping the commandments of God. I cannot hope to pass that on to you by any words that are my own, all I can do is testify to you that this issue is dangerous to the stability of the family, the society and the nation - in that order, it supports only the individuals involved. I have said what I have said and I make no apologies nor do I shrink from my stance, I care far too much about the future of my children and my grandchildren and so on to support, in any degree, homosexuality or atheism.

Now, on what you might call a positive note – I believe that one day in the not-to-distant future homosexuality will go mainstream, I look forward to it for it is a point of prophesy that means the second coming is neigh at hand, it will come when society as a whole least expects it and it will come suddenly - I have made a life out of preparing myself and my family for it.

I do hope that we can end this debate on a calm note because I am quite sure that everyone here is as convinced and passionate about his or her stance as I am.

 

[gnomon]

gnomon, private lifestyles have nothing to do with it, wisdom does. It is hard to discuss this issue with most who intensely support it because they have not had the experiences, the background, the learning that many in my circles have had, not from man but from a living God – learning that one must seek and then properly prepare themselves to receive. God lives my friend and He does speak with his children, often in ways that many cannot comprehend but when He speaks I must listen. I suspect that many will make the same claim; it does not matter; all I can testify to is what I know by my own experience. I concede that there are many in my circles that simply ride the limelight of others but there are those of us who have an understanding born of our diligence in keeping the commandments of God. I cannot hope to pass that on to you by any words that are my own, all I can do is testify to you that this issue is dangerous to the stability of the family, the society and the nation - in that order, it supports only the individuals involved. I have said what I have said and I make no apologies nor do I shrink from my stance, I care far too much about the future of my children and my grandchildren and so on to support, in any degree, homosexuality or atheism.

Now, on what you might call a positive note – I believe that one day in the not-to-distant future homosexuality will go mainstream, I look forward to it for it is a point of prophesy that means the second coming is neigh at hand, it will come when society as a whole least expects it and it will come suddenly - I have made a life out of preparing myself and my family for it.

I do hope that we can end this debate on a calm note because I am quite sure that everyone here is as convinced and passionate about his or her stance as I am.

Interesting but irrelevant.

Is heterosexuality a lifestyle?

 

[Autodidact]

gnomon, private lifestyles have nothing to do with it, wisdom does. It is hard to discuss this issue with most who intensely support it because they have not had the experiences, the background, the learning that many in my circles have had,

Really, what might those be? Assuming your own superiority much? If you think you have some special knowledge, by all means share it so we can evaluate just how special it is.

not from man but from a living God – learning that one must seek and then properly prepare themselves to receive.

What makes you think there aren't thousands of gay Christians, pastors, and bishops learning from that very same God?

God lives my friend and He does speak with his children, often in ways that many cannot comprehend but when He speaks I must listen.

Right. Care to debate this?

I suspect that many will make the same claim; it does not matter; all I can testify to is what I know by my own experience.

You've experienced gay marriage?!?!

I concede that there are many in my circles that simply ride the limelight of others but there are those of us who have an understanding born of our diligence in keeping the commandments of God. I cannot hope to pass that on to you by any words that are my own, all I can do is testify to you that this issue is dangerous to the stability of the family, the society and the nation - in that order, it supports only the individuals involved.

You not only have to testify to it, Evandr, you have to persuade us that has some basis in reality. I'm open-minded, go for it. *hint* evidence would help. Unlike you, I am a member of the reality-based community.

I have said what I have said and I make no apologies nor do I shrink from my stance, I care far too much about the future of my children and my grandchildren and so on to support, in any degree, homosexuality or atheism.

You've said it, you just haven't demonstrated it to be true.

Now, on what you might call a positive note – I believe that one day in the not-to-distant future homosexuality will go mainstream, I look forward to it for it is a point of prophesy that means the second coming is neigh at hand, it will come when society as a whole least expects it and it will come suddenly - I have made a life out of preparing myself and my family for it.

I'm sure of it. And when it's convenient and beneficial for it to do so, the LDS leadership will receive a prophecy instructing them to accept it.

I do hope that we can end this debate on a calm note because I am quite sure that everyone here is as convinced and passionate about his or her stance as I am.

I've been calm, and amused, throughout.

 

[Evandr]

Really, what might those be? Assuming your own superiority much? If you think you have some special knowledge, by all means share it so we can evaluate just how special it is. [/font][/color]
What makes you think there aren't thousands of gay Christians, pastors, and bishops learning from that very same God? Right. Care to debate this? You've experienced gay marriage?!?! You not only have to testify to it, Evandr, you have to persuade us that has some basis in reality. I'm open-minded, go for it. *hint* evidence would help. Unlike you, I am a member of the reality-based community. You've said it, you just haven't demonstrated it to be true.
I'm sure of it. And when it's convenient and beneficial for it to do so, the LDS leadership will receive a prophecy instructing them to accept it.

I've been calm, and amused, throughout.

LOL It must be very comforting to you to know that you will never loose an argument on this issue because you never risk anything in support of it other than to demand what others cannot give you. That does not mean they do not have it, you simply have to go get it yourself. I doubt if you have any real knowledge about either side of the issue, if you did you would not spend so much time hiding behind claims that nobody else does either.

You better get moving or you are going to be left behind like all those who support your straw house built on a sandy foundation. Now, you've been warned - chop chop, hurry :slap:

 

[emiliano]

IIRC, that's from a passage about lawsuits. What's your point, exactly?

Isn’t this the subject that we are discussing? A church calling it members and Christian in general to judge a supreme court ruling. And scripture says yes you should judge, and the state consulted the people. They made a judgement on conduct, I am sure that is what they did. there a was a campaign of information and the question was ask, is same sex marriage a marriage? You know the answer don’t you? We have gotten into the religious side of the issue, and ask did God created male, females and gays? And the answer to that is no. Humans are either male of female, there is a purpose for it. Incidentally there has been several law suits and counter suits on this in more than one state.
This is how I see it: Psa 2:1 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples meditate on a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers plot together, against Jehovah and against His anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands in two and cast away their cords from us.
Christians know that from the beginning God created them male and female, they Lord said so, and it was so as enable them to accomplish their commanded purpose, “to be fruitful and subdue the earth”

 

[emiliano]

I have to say: it's a great comfort having you here to point out the errors of the Bible. Where would we be without you?
Romans 14:4 (emphasis mine): Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.[/font][/color].

By George, he is getting worst, Romans 14:4? Who do unrepentant /rebellious sinner serve? I can assure you that they are not God’s servants. They are enslaved to their sin of lusting after same sex, men for man and women for women, acting against nature. Who is their master? And they will remind in a reprobate state till they repent and change.
2Pe 2:19 promising them liberty, they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom anyone has been overcome, even to this one he has been enslaved.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever practices sin is the slave of sin.

 

[emiliano]

Obviously you have never heard of XXY or XYY or other natural born intersexual individuals.

Intersexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obviously God is a little more flexible than you seem to think.

wa:do

Yes I have, we are trying to separate this from what is behavioural, They are been helped , there is no one helping those that chose to behave as what they are not, there gender re-assignment, for those that have a genetic fault, none for those that choose to behave in way contrary to their gender, there must be a sure diagnosis, it well regulated and they became the male or female legally, it is another issue.

 

[Green Gaia]

We have gotten into the religious side of the issue, and ask did God created male, females and gays? And the answer to that is no. Humans are either male of female, there is a purpose for it.

Well, I'm so glad you figured that out. Now you need to understand that within those genders there are different sexual and affectional orientations.

BTW, I wasn't discussing lawsuits, I was defending my right to exist in this world and be who I am against your attacks. I do not follow your religion and I do not wish to be forced to by my government. It's as simple as that.

 

[Sententia]

Now, on what you might call a positive note – I believe that one day in the not-to-distant future homosexuality will go mainstream, I look forward to it for it is a point of prophesy that means the second coming is neigh at hand, it will come when society as a whole least expects it and it will come suddenly - I have made a life out of preparing myself and my family for it.

You have spent your life preparing yourself and your family for the end of the world? For armageddon? Rapture? What?

And you think as homesexuals are granted the same rights as heterosexuals will herald this end of the world? Is this what your religion teaches you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

By George, he is getting worst, Romans 14:4? Who do unrepentant /rebellious sinner serve? I can assure you that they are not God’s servants.

Are they your servants?

Romans 14:4 basically says "unless someone answers to you, butt out."

They are enslaved to their sin of lusting after same sex, men for man and women for women, acting against nature. Who is their master? And they will remind in a reprobate state till they repent and change.
2Pe 2:19 promising them liberty, they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom anyone has been overcome, even to this one he has been enslaved.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever practices sin is the slave of sin.

Hang on... I finally figured it out!

#1:
- you follow the Bible
- the Bible says not to judge someone unless they're your servant
- you judge homosexual people
- therefore, you must consider homosexual people to be your servants

#2:
- you say that homosexual people are slaves to sin
- sin is the tool of Satan
- therefore, homosexual people are the servants of Satan

- therefore, by combining #1 and #2, you must be Satan!

Did I get it right?

Or is your theology just completely messed up?

 

[painted wolf]

Yes I have, we are trying to separate this from what is behavioural, They are been helped , there is no one helping those that chose to behave as what they are not, there gender re-assignment, for those that have a genetic fault, none for those that choose to behave in way contrary to their gender, there must be a sure diagnosis, it well regulated and they became the male or female legally, it is another issue.

So what about an intersexual child who is 'corrected' in the wrong direction?
Many intersexual children have been made into 'females' only to discover when they reached puberty that they were 'male'. With all the 'instincts' that young men have, trapped in a body that has been surgically made 'male'. (in fact all intersexual children are by default made into 'females' unless they are stopped by legal action.)
This is why medical associations are pushing to stop doctors from 'fixing' these children until they are old enough to actually be able to know if they 'feel' like a particular gender.

So did God goof up with these kids?

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

LOL It must be very comforting to you to know that you will never loose an argument on this issue because you never risk anything in support of it other than to demand what others cannot give you.

If it exists, why not state it?

That does not mean they do not have it, you simply have to go get it yourself.

It's my job to defend your argument?

I doubt if you have any real knowledge about either side of the issue, if you did you would not spend so much time hiding behind claims that nobody else does either.

What is it you think I'm ignorant of? Please remedy my ignorance; thanks.

You better get moving or you are going to be left behind like all those who support your straw house built on a sandy foundation. Now, you've been warned - chop chop, hurry :slap:

O.K., whatever, again. Do you think these hollow threats are an effective argument?

 

[Autodidact]

emiliano: Did you notice how many times you've contradicted yourself in this thread? What do you think that indicates? Did you notice how you've moved your goalposts so many times they're now back where you started, without any more justification than when you began?

e: Lesbianism is a sin because the Bible prohibits it.
a: No, it doesn't.
e: Lesbianism is a sin because everything the Bible doesn't specifically authorize is prohibited.
a: Really, like typing on your computer?
e: Typing on my computer is authorized because I can use my reasoning to see that it's consistent with Biblical teachings.
a: So is Lesbianism.
e: But it's a sin anyway because The Church says so.
a: But many churches say it's not.
e: They're wrong, because Lesbianism is a sin.
a: How do you know?
e: Because the Bible says so.
a: No, it doesn't.

And so what we see is that you have no justification for your bigoted discrimination against lesbianism other than your own preconceived prejudice, which is, of course, a sin, and I can cite you scripture in support of that. So we now see that it is not lesbianism that's a sin, but your bigotry, and it's not me that's a sinner here, it's you. And I'm not even Christian!

I notice you never commented on the divorce issue. Now there's a real sin for you. Spend any energy opposing that, emiliano? Is it legal in New Zealand? Oooh, sin.

 

[Evandr]

You have spent your life preparing yourself and your family for the end of the world? For armageddon? Rapture? What?

And you think as homesexuals are granted the same rights as heterosexuals will herald this end of the world? Is this what your religion teaches you?

No, not even close and we are not talking about the end of the world either just the beginning of a change of biblical proportions wherein Christ will come and reign for a millennia. The granting of rights is not the issue; it is the resulting physiological deterioration of respect for the commandments of God. People are incessant about blending all things into one great whole and that is not right. If 2 people are homosexual and engage in homosexual activity that is between them and God, If these same two people promote it to others that is another issue, again, between them and God. Then there is a third issue; How their teachings are received by others; that becomes an issue between the others and God. You want to be homosexual, fine; it’s not my business to judge you. You want to teach it, well now your getting into my space because I have children that I would rather not have exposed to such teachings but still, that is your choice and I will oppose your success. When you start asking me to accept and even promote your lifestyle by making it mainstream in the government of our society, that is where you cross the line and we all become involved and all have a right to intercede and bar your progress by public consensus.
Homosexual acceptance is just one of many conditions that call evil good and good evil. Anything that is contrary to the commandments of God can be called evil even if the thoughts and intents of the individual involved are seemingly pure because anything that seeks to invalidate or circumvent the commandments of God comes of Lucifer. It is the wide spread infection of these obstinate conditions (there will be many) that will pervade our social system and trigger the second coming. Armageddon is and event that will precede it.


I have a good friend that has a sister-in-law that is Gay and her daughter is gay and they are the sweetest people on earth. We don’t judge them for their life style but the Lord will and the consequences of that judgment is what we fear for them. We hold it as a sacred responsibility to be sure that they completely understand what they are doing on an eternal basis and also to hedge up the way that others will choose not to be guilty of infraction and become subject to the consequences that will be rendered by the judgments of God. You may not like or understand why such is the case but no unhallowed hand can change the policy.

As to being prepared, I claim no grand position. The Lord has given a few relatively simple guidelines about how to prepare for calamity such as food storage, staying out of debt, keeping His commandments and so forth. Even you could do it.

 

[Autodidact]

No, not even close and we are not talking about the end of the world either just the beginning of a change of biblical proportions wherein Christ will come and reign for a millennia.

And you know this how?

The granting of rights is not the issue; it is the resulting physiological deterioration of respect for the commandments of God.

Physiological deterioration? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

People are incessant about blending all things into one great whole and that is not right. If 2 people are homosexual and engage in homosexual activity that is between them and God, If these same two people promote it to others that is another issue, again, between them and God.

Unlike Christians, especially Mormons, gay people don't go around proselytizing. No ones trying to promote homosexuality to you or anyone else; we're just trying to live our own lives.

Then there is a third issue; How their teachings are received by others; that becomes an issue between the others and God.

What teachings? Are you sure you're not talking about yourself? You're the one trying to impose your teachings on others, not me.

You want to be homosexual, fine; it’s not my business to judge you. You want to teach it, well now your getting into my space because I have children that I would rather not have exposed to such teachings but still, that is your choice and I will oppose your success.

Teach it? Teach homosexuality? What are you talking about? How would that work? btw, please stay away from my kids with your evil teachings as well. Thanks.

When you start asking me to accept and even promote your lifestyle by making it mainstream in the government of our society, that is where you cross the line and we all become involved and all have a right to intercede and bar your progress by public consensus.

I don't care what you accept or not. I do care about my civil rights, and yes, I demand that you respect them. You don't have to like what I do or believe any more than I like what you do and believe (and believe me, I don't.) However, I respect your civil rights, and I expect you to respect mine.

Homosexual acceptance is just one of many conditions that call evil good and good evil.

You've got it backwards. The only thing that's evil in this thread is your bigotry. Please support your assertion that, outside your bizarre religious superstitions, there is anything whatsoever "evil" about homosexuality. When you can't, please withdraw this spurious bigotry. Thank you.

Anything that is contrary to the commandments of God can be called evil

Well, you can call a potato a carrot, but that doesn't make it one. btw, I suppose you're in charge of telling us what God says now? Please show me where, even in your odd myth-system, your imaginary God hypothetically commanded me not to be a lesbian.

even if the thoughts and intents of the individual involved are seemingly pure because anything that seeks to invalidate or circumvent the commandments of God comes of Lucifer. It is the wide spread infection of these obstinate conditions (there will be many) that will pervade our social system and trigger the second coming. Armageddon is and event that will precede it.

I don't know why I bother. As I said before, it's clear that this RF member lives in an imaginary world, and there is no way to reason with people like that.

I have a good friend that has a sister-in-law that is Gay and her daughter is gay and they are the sweetest people on earth.

Ding!

We don’t judge them for their life style

Liar. You just did. You say they're evil.

but the Lord will and the consequences of that judgment is what we fear for them.

And you know this how?

We hold it as a sacred responsibility to be sure that they completely understand what they are doing on an eternal basis and also to hedge up the way that others will choose not to be guilty of infraction and become subject to the consequences that will be rendered by the judgments of God. You may not like or understand why such is the case but no unhallowed hand can change the policy.

I hold it as my sacred responsibility to be sure that you completely understand what you are doing on an eternal basis and to let you know that you are guilty of infraction and become subject tot he consequences that will be rendered by the judgments of God. You may not like or understand why such is the case but no unhallowed hand can chang the policy. Repent now!

As to being prepared, I claim no grand position. The Lord has given a few relatively simple guidelines about how to prepare for calamity such as food storage, staying out of debt, keeping His commandments and so forth. Even you could do it.

Completely nuts.

 

[Watchmen]

Completely nuts.

Why is food storage and staying out of debt completely nuts?

 

[painted wolf]

what do they have to do with the subject at hand?

wa:do