Leaving RF for a while.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Exactly. This isn't a purely theoretical issue: My best friend is a lesbian (legally married in the Netherlands). My soon-to-be-father-in-law is gay (gay parent of the love of my life). My old room-mate is a gay warehouse manager whose crew sometimes makes comments like "I think gay people should be shot - they're an abomination". (Needless to say, he hasn't told anyone at work that he's gay.)

BTW - if someone advocating killing gay people here, this would be a breach of our rules.

I have reached the end of my rope with those threads. If I'm feeling like going on a rampage against anti-gay hate speech, a religious forum might be the wrong place for it. I'm too likely to say things that are offensive to religious people.

I've managed to convince a few (not many, but a few) people who started out vehemently anti-gay and anti-same-sex marriage to change their view by talking to them. How on earth do you think I could've done that if when they arrived here, we told them by our conduct that they weren't welcome to express themselves here?

They would've left, we would've sorted everyone into silos based on their pre-existing opinions, and we'd set up a system where nobody ever learns anything and nobody's mind is ever changed.

The whole point of this site is to provide a forum where people of differing views can come together, talk, and hopefully learn about each other and the spectrum of other positions. This simply can't happen if differing views aren't allowed.

 

[Alceste]

Anyway, I'm not peeved about being moderated for saying "___ damn". That doesn't bug me. What bugs me is that hate speech is socially acceptable as long as it's only gays that are the target and not a particular race or a religion. It's not just here, but everywhere. It also bugs me that somebody sat through FORTY PAGES of unrestrained anti-gay ranting and me saying "___ damn" is what finally got them outraged. What kind of world are we living in?

 

[Alceste]

I have to agree with him. As vile as some people's beliefs can be, they're entitled by right to hold and speak them. If someone presents an idea or notion that you believe is false, simply refute it with facts rather than attempt to censor or run from it.

As for being offended...

Lol - that's awesome.

 

[blackout]

I know. I got a post deleted today for simply describing someone
for exactly who he has clearly shown himself to be 100 posts over.
A bigot, homophobe, sexist ummm self agrandized moron.
That last part may be what got it deleted,
however, it was all descriptively accurate.
I really don't care about the deletion though.
I kind of expected it, but it needed to be said.
so.
Call a spade a spade and all that.


And you are right,
the pages and pages of personally insulting and even slanderous remarks about homosexuals, sit.
It is a double standard.

If homosexuality were a religion, it would be more strictly protected in moderation I guess.
Homosexuals are attacked in a "general" kind of way, which while this is the very thing that makes it so innacurate and offensive,
is also the reason I guess the attacks are not moderated,
as they are considered general, and not "personal".
Though of course every single GLBTQP here TAKES them personally.
Attacks and slander CAN be both general, AND personal at the same time.

Come to think of it, the very fact that religions sanction all this bigotry,
under the protection of their "holy veils",
is most likely the very reason this degree of rampantly offensive homosexual slander
is allowed to stand, without deletion.

Anyway, it's the sad state of the world we live in.

You will be missed.


(Who knows, this post may be deleted too.
You know I love the mods here as well,
and they're just trying to follow directives,
but this is why I will never have anything to do with moderation mySelf.)

 

[Storm]

I don't know what to say at this point.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It also bugs me that somebody sat through FORTY PAGES of unrestrained anti-gay ranting and me saying "___ damn" is what finally got them outraged. What kind of world are we living in?

What makes you think that?

Speaking for myself, if you're talking about the thread I think you are, I was very outraged by it. But I dealt with that outrage by confronting the ideas expressed (when I can - I've been very busy with things in RL over the past week or so), not by silencing them.

Frankly, the idea you're implying here - i.e. that if we're sufficiently outraged by an idea, it shouldn't be allowed to be expressed - goes against the whole spirit and purpose of RF, IMO.

 

[kai]

And you are right,
the pages and pages of personally insulting and even slanderous remarks about homosexuals, sit.
It is a double standard.

you know mods cant be every where, and don't partake in every thread , if you think a post is insulting report it. it will be looked at and dealt with.

 

[Quagmire]

Someone reported her post, so unless only the reported post gets looked at, I have to assume someone looked at least one thread in question. I don't know whether it was the anti-gay bigot or not. I am making an assumption that one doesn't look only at the post in question and looks at some context to the thread.

Maybe you should start forming your opinions on something other than assumptions.

I'm not claiming any other knowledge, purely using reasoning, please direct your snark on that subject somewhere else.

I'll withdraw my snark as soon as you get a rein on your sanctimony. Reality check: Alceste and I have been members of this place for something like 3 and 1/2 years together now. We've always gotten along just fine. I really don't think either one of us needs someone who just showed up stepping in and mediating any problem or disagreement we might be having atm.

I don't have a whole lot of respect for anyone who would presume to do so, tbh. No more than I would have for someone who's brand new making noises about what should and shouldn't be appropriate behavior for people who've been around this place for years.

 

[Alceste]

I know. I got a post deleted today for simply describing someone
for exactly who he has clearly shown himself to be 100 posts over.
A bigot, homophobe, sexist ummm self agrandized moron.
That last part may be what got it deleted,
however, it was all descriptively accurate.
I really don't care about the deletion though.
I kind of expected it, but it needed to be said.
so.
Call a spade a spade and all that.


And you are right,
the pages and pages of personally insulting and even slanderous remarks about homosexuals, sit.
It is a double standard.

If homosexuality were a religion, it would be more strictly protected in moderation I guess.
Homosexuals are attacked in a "general" kind of way, which while this is the very thing that makes it so innacurate and offensive, is also the reason I guess the attacks are not moderated,
as they are general, and not "personal".
Though of course every single GLBTQP here TAKES them personally.
Attacks and slandeer CAN be both general, AND personal at the same time.

Come to think of it, the very fact that religions sanction all this bigotry,
under the protection of their "holy veils",
is most likely the very reason this degree of rampantly offensive homosexual slander
is allowed to stand, without deletion.

Anyway, it's the sad state of the world we live in.

You will be missed.


(Who knows, this post may be deleted too.
You know I love the mods here as well,
and they're just trying to follow directives,
but this is why I will never have anything to do with moderation mySelf.)

For what it's worth, I saw your comment before it was deleted and completely agreed with it. In fact, you got a rather large round of applause, in case you missed it.

 

[blackout]

Anyway, I'm not peeved about being moderated for saying "___ damn". That doesn't bug me. What bugs me is that hate speech is socially acceptable as long as it's only gays that are the target and not a particular race or a religion. It's not just here, but everywhere. It also bugs me that somebody sat through FORTY PAGES of unrestrained anti-gay ranting and me saying "___ damn" is what finally got them outraged. What kind of world are we living in?

Yes. It is hate speech.

 

[Kathryn]

You're sensitive to this particular issue because it affects you and your loved ones personally. You are not as sensitive to other issues, so apparently you don't notice when the rhetoric is just as strong and oppositional and IGNORANT when focused on issues that you're not sensitive about.

Here's what I don when I read something that could possibly offend me here (and believe me, there's plenty that can!):

 

[blackout]

you know mods cant be every where, and don't partake in every thread , if you think a post is insulting report it. it will be looked at and dealt with.

I honestly don't know what forum rule would protect homosexuals from insulting posts and hate speech.

Is there one?

 

[Quagmire]

I honestly don't know what forum rule would protect homosexuals from insulting posts and hate speech.

Is there one?

Uh huh:

*** Rule 3. Trolling and Bullying
We recognize three areas of unacceptable trolling (Please note that these apply to PMs, signature lines, frubal comments, and visitor messages as well, if they are reported):
1)posts that are deliberately inflammatory in order to provoke a vehement response from other users.
2)posts that Target a person or group by following them around the forums to attack them. This is Bullying. Deliberately altering the words of another member by intentionally changing the meaning when you use the quote feature is considered a form of bullying. The ONLY acceptable alteration of a quotation from another member is to remove portions that are not relevant or to alter formatting for emphasis.
3)posts that are adjudged to fit the following profile: "While questioning and challenging other beliefs is appropriate in the debates forums, repeated blatant misrepresentation or continual harassment of other beliefs will not be tolerated."***

Here's the catch: if you want us to apply the rule, you have to report the post.

again: if you want us to apply the rule, you have to report the post.

Lets all say it together, shall we?: if you want us to apply the rule, you have to report the post.

 

[Alceste]

What makes you think that?

Speaking for myself, if you're talking about the thread I think you are, I was very outraged by it. But I dealt with that outrage by confronting the ideas expressed (when I can - I've been very busy with things in RL over the past week or so), not by silencing them.

Frankly, the idea you're implying here - i.e. that if we're sufficiently outraged by an idea, it shouldn't be allowed to be expressed - goes against the whole spirit and purpose of RF, IMO.

I am thinking more along the lines that certain oft-occurring, rage-inducing, trollish comparisons, specifically the argument that there's no difference between homosexuality, incest, pedophilia or bestiality (sometimes murder or robbery), could potentially be edited, deleted, or be required to be enclosed in spoiler tags (like images of the prophet Mohammed) as a matter of general policy, rather than only in response to me, personally, ferreting them all out and trying to report them all one by one. I have most people who would make such comments on ignore already, so what can I do about it?

 

[Drolefille]

Maybe you should start forming your opinions on something other than assumptions.

As I said, reason. You didn't contradict my assumption, so I'm still going to run with it.

I'll withdraw my snark as soon as you get a reign on your sanctimony.

Take it or leave it I don't care. But it's misplaced and I'm sorry you're wasting the energy on it.

Reality check: Alceste and I have been members of this place for something like 3 and 1/2 years together now. We've always gotten along just fine. I really don't think either one of us needs someone who just showed up stepping in and mediating any problem or disagreement we might be having atm.

As this was not a private message and was for public consumption it was therefore open to the possible interpretation and misinterpretation by other individuals. I doubt responding to the post I saw was a shocking and new action on the part of a poster in this forum.

I don't have a whole lot of respect for anyone who would presume to do so, tbh.

If you already don't respect me, I don't suppose I should have any fear of losing it.

No more than I would have for someone who's brand new making noises about what should and shouldn't be appropriate behavior for people who've been around this place for years.

I don't believe in being silent when I have strongly held convictions. Otherwise I'd let the anti-gay bigots spew their garbage without response.

 

[kai]

I honestly don't know what forum rule would protect homosexuals from insulting posts and hate speech.

Is there one?

The same rules we use for every body????


Religious Education Forum - FAQ: vBulletin FAQ

 

[Me Myself]

I don't believe in being silent when I have strongly held convictions. Otherwise I'd let the anti-gay bigots spew their garbage without response.

I personally agree on stating opinions of what one beliefs directly.

But if you see garbage, the whole point that is trying to be made is that you should not sit and take it but report it. :ninja:

 

[Quagmire]

If you already don't respect me, I don't suppose I should have any fear of losing it.

That worked out well then.

 

[blackout]

Uh huh:

*** Rule 3. Trolling and Bullying
We recognize three areas of unacceptable trolling (Please note that these apply to PMs, signature lines, frubal comments, and visitor messages as well, if they are reported):
1)posts that are deliberately inflammatory in order to provoke a vehement response from other users.
2)posts that Target a person or group by following them around the forums to attack them. This is Bullying. Deliberately altering the words of another member by intentionally changing the meaning when you use the quote feature is considered a form of bullying. The ONLY acceptable alteration of a quotation from another member is to remove portions that are not relevant or to alter formatting for emphasis.
3)posts that are adjudged to fit the following profile: "While questioning and challenging other beliefs is appropriate in the debates forums, repeated blatant misrepresentation or continual harassment of other beliefs will not be tolerated."***


Here's the catch: if you want us to apply the rule, you have to report the post.

again: if you want us to apply the rule, you have to report the post.

Lets all say it together, shall we?: if you want us to apply the rule, you have to report the post.

As for #1 and #2, most homosexual hate speech comes from people who BELIEVE they are spouting truth instead of slander. Thus their vitriol is protected as fair posting.

Almost #3, except for the words "other beliefs".
Homosexuality is not a belief. It is a sexual orientation.
It's just.... (an aspect of) who someone is.
More like a person's race.

3)posts that are adjudged to fit the following profile: "While questioning and challenging other beliefs is appropriate in the debates forums, repeated blatant misrepresentation or continual harassment of other beliefs will not be tolerated."***

I dunno. well, maybe I'm wrong.
From now on I'm going to just hit the report button on all homosexual hate speech and slander.
My finger's gunna get tired.

 

[Storm]

Alceste does have a point, though.

The anti-gay vitriol would be deleted as hate speech if it were aimed at anyone else.