Lefty loonies and liberals, what the hell happened to us?

[gsa]

What exactly is the difference between person A having an advantage over person B, and person B having a disadvantage compared to person A?

Remediation of disadvantages takes very different forms from remediation of unearned advantages. As I said, we could make everyone more equal by creating an oppressive police state that disadvantages everyone more or less equally.

 

[dust1n]

Remediation of disadvantages takes very different forms from remediation of unearned advantages. As I said, we could make everyone more equal by creating an oppressive police state that disadvantages everyone more or less equally.

Well, that doesn't really answer the question. The question about what sorts of perceived remediation one might apply isn't really what I'm asking. There's nothing about "remediation of unearned advantages" that implies or necessitates an "oppressive police state that disadvantages everyone more or less equally." An oppressive police state would obviously confer privileges to members of its police state anyways.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Where are any examples of the privilege perspective telling us something we don't already know?

Many people do not know. Most people rarely associate with anyone outside of their own normal group. Especially in America if you are a white, heterosexual, Christian male, the concept of privilege is that they do not so easily know of, see, or learn of things faced by everyone else.

I'll pay you 10 frubies to ditch the magenta font.
(It doesn't work well with quoting.)

Ohhh.....it's stand off of stubbornness between an Irish gal and a Scottish groundskeeper. This could go on for awhile.

 

[Revoltingest]

Many people do not know. Most people rarely associate with anyone outside of their own normal group. Especially in America if you are a white, heterosexual, Christian male, the concept of privilege is that they do not so easily know of, see, or learn of things faced by everyone else.

Ohhh.....it's stand off of stubbornness between an Irish gal and a Scottish groundskeeper. This could go on for awhile.

I've determined that your color makes it impossible for me to insert responses within your post. So everything must be at the end, unless I make multiple responses to one post. I have a very misbehaving computer....it does lots of weird things.

To tell "privileged" people about the plights of others is more informative & direct than telling them they're "privileged". Moreover, the movement pushing "privilege perspective" loses public credibility by going after the usual suspects (Xian white males), & largely ignoring the advantages conferred upon others. It amounts to an annoying SJW tirad which educates no one.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I've determined that your color makes it impossible for me to insert responses within your post. So everything must be at the end, unless I make multiple responses to one post. I have a very misbehaving computer....it does lots of weird things.

To tell "privileged" people about the plights of others is more informative & direct than telling them they're "privileged". Moreover, the movement pushing "privilege perspective" loses public credibility by going after the usual suspects (Xian white males), & largely ignoring the advantages conferred upon others. It amounts to an annoying SJW tirad which educates no one.

Yeah.....Been there done that. Still do every single time.

Usual responses: "Here is why you are overreacting." "Your problem is your own doing, and here is why." "Biology explains it all. Life isn't fair, so shut your mouth and stop whining." "Whatever your problem is, what's most important is that none of this is my fault, so talk to me more about how I had nothing to do with your problem and less about how you are suffering."

It happens. Everywhere. Including RF.

How would you describe the phenomenon of denying the existence of systemic disadvantage?

 

[Revoltingest]

How would you describe the phenomenon of denying the existence of systemic disadvantage?

Call attention to it by calmly presenting a cogent argument with evidence. Finding common ground is a powerful tool for changing mindsets.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Call attention to it by calmly presenting a cogent argument with evidence. Finding common ground is a powerful tool for changing mindsets.

My question was this:

What do you call the denial of systemic disadvantage?

The denial is present. It happens here at RF and elsewhere. How would you define the denial itself and the phenomena that surrounds it?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I've determined that your color makes it impossible for me to insert responses within your post. So everything must be at the end, unless I make multiple responses to one post. I have a very misbehaving computer....it does lots of weird things.

To tell "privileged" people about the plights of others is more informative & direct than telling them they're "privileged". Moreover, the movement pushing "privilege perspective" loses public credibility by going after the usual suspects (Xian white males), & largely ignoring the advantages conferred upon others. It amounts to an annoying SJW tirad which educates no one.

Why should we one side/half educate people, by telling them the plights of others without them knowing how they have benefited in ways that others haven't, or how they have benefited off the oppression of others?

 

[Revoltingest]

My question was this:
What do you call the denial of systemic disadvantage?
The denial is present. It happens here at RF and elsewhere. How would you define the denial itself and the phenomena that surrounds it?

Since the name was acceptable, I decided to prescribe a solution.
(That seemed efficient.)

 

[Revoltingest]

Why should we one side/half educate people, by telling them the plights of others without them knowing how they have benefited in ways that others haven't, or how they have benefited off the oppression of others?

I don't propose "half educating" people. This "privilege" stuff just seems preachy, redundant & directed solely at the usual suspects.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I don't propose "half educating" people. This "privilege" stuff just seems preachy, redundant & directed solely at the usual suspects.

Wrong! I'm not a white Christian patriarch and I'm aware of the ways in which I have privilege. It's not beyond white Christian patriarchs to be aware of their privilege.

 

[Revoltingest]

Wrong! I'm not a white Christian patriarch and I'm aware of the ways in which I have privilege. It's not beyond white Christian patriarchs to be aware of their privilege.

I don't know your group affiliations....you could be a 90 year old Tibetan guy living in a New Jersey Tudor mansion for all I know. Whoever you are, I'll wager you have your share of "privileges' too. If I lectured you on yours, would this be beneficial to you?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I don't know your group affiliations....you could be a 90 year old Tibetan guy living in New Jersey Tudor mansion for all I know. Whoever you are, I'll wager you have your share of "privileges' too.

Yeah so it's not just the usual suspects who are educated on privilege, you don't know what your talking about when you say that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah so it's not just the usual suspects who are educated on privilege, you don't know what your talking about when you say that.

So you say....so you say.....

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Since the name was acceptable, I decided to prescribe a solution.

Your solution does not fix the denial.

There are people that in spite of being presented with study after study that orientation is not a choice or a lifestyle will continue to insist that it is a simple matter of a whimsical fancy. A subset of these same people, even when presented with a loved family member who is not straight, will cling to their assumption that they are actually straight, but just being stubborn and rebellious.

When these people deny the struggle of people who are not straight, and who take it upon themselves to tell queers how to "fix" their situations, and who go so far to not only tell them their struggle doesn't even exist to telling them they only have themselves to blame and nothing else...the denial is harmful across the board.

And then we have the phenomenon of straight people saying THEY are the real victims by having to endure queers "shoving their lifestyles down their throats", as if that is equitable to the risk of assault/battery, corrective rape, or homicide.

Straight people do not have the kind of struggles that queer people do. AND straight people at times will deny that queers have to hide their orientation for their own safety. If this happens on a grand scale, how best to describe this phenomenon?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

So you say....so you say.....

.....what??

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Your solution does not fix the denial.

There are people that in spite of being presented with study after study that orientation is not a choice or a lifestyle will continue to insist that it is a simple matter of a whimsical fancy. A subset of these same people, even when presented with a loved family member who is not straight, will cling to their assumption that they are actually straight, but just being stubborn and rebellious.

When these people deny the struggle of people who are not straight, and who take it upon themselves to tell queers how to "fix" their situations, and who go so far to not only tell them their struggle doesn't even exist to telling them they only have themselves to blame and nothing else...the denial is harmful across the board.

And then we have the phenomenon of straight people saying THEY are the real victims by having to endure queers "shoving their lifestyles down their throats", as if that is equitable to the risk of assault/battery, corrective rape, or homicide.

Straight people do not have the kind of struggles that queer people do. AND straight people at times will deny that queers have to hide their orientation for their own safety. If this happens on a grand scale, how best to describe this phenomenon?

Now Heather you don't want to hurt straight people's fee fee's, that is just reverse homophobia and equally just as damaging. Always be considerate of the fact that you may personally offend me when talking about homophobia. After every post like this, you must sign it off with "I love straight people too and I'll never be angry at them, straight allies have done so much for me."

 

[Revoltingest]

Your solution does not fix the denial.

No solution is perfect or universal, but I've found this one beats all others. Especially with religious folk whose teachings lead them to deny the inherent nature of gay & trans status, I've found them amenable to science based argument. To be friendly, civil & seeking common ground with them opens doors. There's no one more convincing than a lovable atheist.

So you don't like my approach. What's your alternative?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No solution is perfect or universal, but I've found this one beats all others. Especially with religious folk whose teachings lead them to deny the inherent nature of gay & trans status, I've found them amenable to science based argument. To be friendly, civil & seeking common ground with them opens doors. There's no one more convincing than a lovable atheist.

So you don't like my approach. What's your alternative?

It isn't that I don't like it. It is that I have found as a queer that it only works for those who are not in denial.

Perhaps it works more for you because you're straight? This is where allies are powerful voices by educating other straights.

Male allies are powerful voices when they educate other males on the real struggles of women.

Cis allies are powerful voices when educating other cis people on the real struggle of trans people.

And on and on.

I'm letting you and others know that when those who are not disadvantaged deny the struggles exist, we all know it isn't malicious.

Yes, we know that. Nobody means to hurt anyone else. We get that.

But let's get it out there...denial does indeed hurt people who are disadvantaged. It does indeed perpetuate inequality.

It does not hurt me to recognize how the color of my skin has protected me from certain social and cultural phenomena. I am not "guilty" of anything by recognizing how I fit the description of a societal ideal skin color. It does not hurt me to recognize my name doesn't sound too ethnic, and places me at an advantage for business or job hunts.

It DOES hurt me when my risk for being sexually assaulted is denied as actually in existence, and especially so when I am told I am all alone in figuring out how to mitigate my risks.

 

[Revoltingest]

It isn't that I don't like it. It is that I have found as a queer that it only works for those who are not in denial.
Perhaps it works more for you because you're straight? This is where allies are powerful voices by educating other straights.
Male allies are powerful voices when they educate other males on the real struggles of women.
Cis allies are powerful voices when educating other cis people on the real struggle of trans people.

To belong to a particular group is one way to be seen as an ally. But what works even better (& more often) is to cultivate mutual understanding.
Example:
When I discuss religion with fundies, I cultivate being an ally in the sense that I find them as intelligent & rational as heathens. Instead of telling them they're WRONG, I simply explain my different perspective. They eat up my sneaky trick of giving them respect, & being non-threatening.