• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Legalize Prostitution?

Should prostitution be legalized?


  • Total voters
    93

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
but there are women out there who really do want to be a prostitute,

I agree there are some women who are what you call"exibitionist" who thouroughly enjoy bringing pleasure to anyone and no one in particular with there bodies and WANT to do it as a profession that are healthy in the mind emotionally and in fact have other opportunities but chose this out of love of the actual job duties.. .....But you are talking about a tiny percentage of women..No where near the demand of men seeking a prostitute..If that were the case this thing wouldnt even be a problem...Women would have come forward demanding the right to this "art" in large #'s if they existed in the numbers needed to satisfy the demand.

The fact that ther are "some women" does not make it more pallteable that the majority are in this for no other reason than beign able to eat and feed thier kids..Or from fear of being abused by their bosses..Or to feed a drug habit..Where are the multitudes or even a substantial % of women coming forward with the shining reviews of the life of prostituion and that they indeed love their jobs?

They dont exist because thats not whats going on..The overwhelming evidence suggest these women do NOT want to have to do this..Adn many of them got started as abused runaways..Adn many of the ones addicted to drugs or alcohol were introduced to it intentionally by predetors that preyed on them as a human commodity in order to better keep them under control..

I will say I feel as if I have changed my view of them being thrown in prison especially because many of them are operating under threat....But the Johns and the pimps should be criminalized..

Blessings

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Whats "wrong" about two consensual adults both getting pleasure out of something?

Here's where you are kiddign your self..She is not getting "pleasure" she is getting money and he is getting pleasure.Do you understand the difference between pleasure and money?Money is something we need in order not to be malnurished from lack of food ..You are not going to die if you dont have sex with a woman or have vitamin defciencies nor are your children.She is having sex to survive and live because she gets money from it..You are taking advantage of that and gaining sexual "pleasure" from her situation.

There is a difference..But if it makes you feel better to think she gains pleasure from the "act"..go right ahead..

Blessings

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Neither does legalization.

I would generally opt for freedom of choice in a legalization discussion, except that in this case I do not believe the choice is being made with a healthy conscious mind. Just as with children and mentally handicapped people, the victims of child sexual abuse who grow up to become prostitutes are not doing it as an informed choice. I think they're doing it as expression of the damage that's been done to them. And for me, that removes it from a freedom of choice issue.

I think there is a distinction between de-criminilising" the prostitute and "legalising prostitution..

I'm thinking its taking out the legal or criminal risk of the prostitute selling the sex but the John and the pimps are still breaking the law if they solicit or pay for sex and or are profiting off of her ..the only ones at criminal risk are the John and the pimp..

She's protected ...they are not..

Blessings

Dallas
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I dont know if you are married or not..But I would like if you are for your husband to consider making love to you a job..or vice versa..(and forget the love part its just a service like a car wash)

I'm married and with children, too. And I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. :help:

The reason is because there are many aspects in our marriage which is hard work, and which requires one or both of us to be completely selfless. But I have a feeling that this isn't what you're referring to.




Peace,
Mystic
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I'm married and with children, too. And I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. :help:

The reason is because there are many aspects in our marriage which is hard work, and which requires one or both of us to be completely selfless. But I have a feeling that this isn't what you're referring to.




Peace,
Mystic

Im not sure what Im asking either ...Hang on a minute and I'll figure it out... :shrug:

I know I had a point..But that was yesterday ....a long time ago...

Blessings

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Im not sure what Im asking either ...Hang on a minute and I'll figure it out... :shrug:

I know I had a point..But that was yesterday ....a long time ago...

Blessings

Dallas


Oh...I remember..would it not damage your self esteem or that of your husbands if the only reason you had sex with each other was to produce a monetary income?..Or if you believed you only were with your husband under threat of financial suffering?

Would it bother him if he knew you only had sex with him because you had to and it was for the insurance of a financial benefit to you and his children???..and that if you had a choice you would "make money" another way?

Would it bother you to believe you were having sex because if you didnt you might starve and so would your children because you husband would just "pay" someone else?

If this would bother you...Think how the prostitutes feel...If it doesnt then nevermind.

I too believe in a relationship of give and take..mutual respect..and forgiveness daily..And in my old age of 40...I believe that sexual love is above a "job descritption"
and that in that atmosphere it is harmful to one or both..Even the men like to "pretend" the prostitutes really enjoy it"...To think otherwise reduces us to something less..

SHOCKINGLY I do believe there is a place for a trained sexual therapist..to help people overcome sexual abuse ...rape incest and the like...

Blessings

Dallas
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I think you're missing the point, Dallas.

First, do you think there is anything wrong or immoral about two people having sex? Don't qualify it. Just yes or no, is the act of sex between two consenting people bad in any way?

If yes, then the problem runs deeper than just prostitution.

If no, then when you add in the variables of one getting paid, but no actual pleasure, and the other giving up money, but getting pleasure, nothing changes. The prostitute has the option to say reject the offer, just like the client has the option to say I don't want to rescind the offer.

I agree that there can be problems with the profession, but there can be problems with any profession. There's always the chance of prostitute employees being mistreated by the employers, whether or not it's legal. It's easier to control that, though, if it is legal. Then the government can step in, and force the employers to not make the prostitues work 12 hour shifts (although nurses do that as part of the job), and eliminate abuse of employees.

The main point is that if both parties involved want to do it, then let them do it. Do you think that a woman who sleeps with 100 guys in four months because she wants to should be arrested? I doubt it. Then why arrest a woman who does the same thing, only gets paid for it? Neither of them look at sex the same way you and your husband do, but that's their opinion.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
I think you're missing the point, Dallas.

First, do you think there is anything wrong or immoral about two people having sex? Don't qualify it. Just yes or no, is the act of sex between two consenting people bad in any way?

If yes, then the problem runs deeper than just prostitution.

If no, then when you add in the variables of one getting paid, but no actual pleasure, and the other giving up money, but getting pleasure, nothing changes. The prostitute has the option to say reject the offer, just like the client has the option to say I don't want to rescind the offer.

I agree that there can be problems with the profession, but there can be problems with any profession. There's always the chance of prostitute employees being mistreated by the employers, whether or not it's legal. It's easier to control that, though, if it is legal. Then the government can step in, and force the employers to not make the prostitues work 12 hour shifts (although nurses do that as part of the job), and eliminate abuse of employees.

The main point is that if both parties involved want to do it, then let them do it. Do you think that a woman who sleeps with 100 guys in four months because she wants to should be arrested? I doubt it. Then why arrest a woman who does the same thing, only gets paid for it? Neither of them look at sex the same way you and your husband do, but that's their opinion.

The contract is unconscionable due to gross inequality of bargaining power.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Also I think this converstation would be different if it was mostly "lonely' women..And 18 year old boys in demand that were under the control of woman power..If the men were being harnessed as a human trade to service lonely women..And the women were saying...Well the boys are getting pleasure off of commiting sexual acts with me and I pay him so we both win!The boys LOVE strange women wanting to pay for sexual acts they cant get for free(or its too much trouble)...They 'enjoy it".....Im physically unable to get a man on my own but the boy /men prostitutes seem to love every minute of it!No harm done!

On that note..Im sure the young boys that are heterosexual have learned the "pleasurable aspects" of performing acts with men for money..Suddenly its something they "chose' to do and thoroughly enjoy their "job".By "choice"...

We have restricted this to women..but young men are cattled in as well..

Blessings

Dallas
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Oh...I remember..would it not damage your self esteem or that of your husbands if the only reason you had sex with each other was to produce a monetary income?..Or if you believed you only were with your husband under threat of financial suffering?

Damage my self-esteem? First, I think it's irrelevent. And, second, I don't believe my self-esteem (or his, for that matter) should be dependent on how we relate to each other sexually.

Would it bother him if he knew you only had sex with him because you had to and it was for the insurance of a financial benefit to you and his children???..and that if you had a choice you would "make money" another way?

I guess it would bother him. But I'm still failing to see how this is relevent. :confused:

Would it bother you to believe you were having sex because if you didnt you might starve and so would your children because you husband would just "pay" someone else?

Let's see.......I've sometimes felt I had to "whore" myself out (not in sexual ways, however, but in making the "sale") in meaningless, joyless jobs before (as a waitress, and I sucked at it). Did it bother me? Sure. But it was a job, and I could perform my job capably enough to help me pay bills. Yeah, those fine lines of trying to sell the premium wine or liquor from the bar in order to get an extra $0.50-$1.00 on my tip would sometimes leave me feeling like a swindler.

But, you know, I'm an artist. So I'm biased. ;)

I'm still wondering where the feelings fit in all this, though.

DallasApple said:
If this would bother you...Think how the prostitutes feel...If it doesnt then nevermind.

I too believe in a relationship of give and take..mutual respect..and forgiveness daily..And in my old age of 40...I believe that sexual love is above a "job descritption"
and that in that atmosphere it is harmful to one or both..Even the men like to "pretend" the prostitutes really enjoy it"...To think otherwise reduces us to something less..

SHOCKINGLY I do believe there is a place for a trained sexual therapist..to help people overcome sexual abuse ...rape incest and the like...

Blessings

Dallas

Oh, PLEASE don't say you're old at 40! I'm 35 and feel like I'm just beginning in many ways! :flower:

Sex can most certainly be a job description. So can parenting. Mothering is many times seen as a "sacred job", yet it isn't illegal to hire a nanny to care for children. Now, would people rather be raised by their natural birth mother full time? I'm sure many of us would say "yes" (mostly if we've had good relationships with our mums lol), but having a nanny doesn't cheapen mothering IMO. It isn't the ideal form of raising children, but it's available to those who feel the need for it.

Troublemane brought up a very good point earlier.......there is a heavy stigma attached to anything sexual in our culture. I think that this stigma is what fuels the fire for these debates.




Peace,
Mystic
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
First, do you think there is anything wrong or immoral about two people having sex? Don't qualify it. Just yes or no, is the act of sex between two consenting people bad in any way?

It has to be qualified..

If my husband said to me...Have sex with me or I'll leave you and find someone else..So I consented ..I think he is a heartles brut ...And its immoral how he gained the sex under threat..

If I had a daughter and I said ...have sex with this man or I will throw you out..So she consented ..that is immoral..

Two consenting adults is not enough to make it moral or right.

But yes...in the right circumstances two people having sex is not immorral..I've been doing "it" morrally and immorally since I was 14...

When someone is in power over you and say's "consent to sex" with consequences if you dont is a CLEAR qualifier of what is right and what is wrong...Its not true consent..Its what I would call "forced sex" and so do most ...

Add alcohol and drugs into the mix and there is NO way to not 'qualify consent" in humans...

I think even some animals (non human) in the wild have more of a complex view of consent than you propose..Whales! have qualifiers so do many birds and elephants and fish for that matter before they will "consent" to sex ...

If I say "sure go ahead"...it doesnt make it moral..It doesnt make it decent that the person would have sex with me under the conditions I was under when consent was given..

Blessings

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Sex can most certainly be a job description. So can parenting. Mothering is many times seen as a "sacred job", yet it isn't illegal to hire a nanny to care for children. Now, would people rather be raised by their natural birth mother full time? I'm sure many of us would say "yes" (mostly if we've had good relationships with our mums lol), but having a nanny doesn't cheapen mothering IMO. It isn't the ideal form of raising children, but it's available to those who feel the need for it.

I will not compare having sex for money with someone who is a nanny...I will not reduce a nanny to that level...a nanny takes care of children in the parents abscence..A prostitute takes care of momentarily sexually pleasuring of a man who could survive otherwise..

Blessings

Dallas
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
The contract is unconscionable due to gross inequality of bargaining power.

That's true, the women in this case do have the heavy advantage in the bargaining, don't they, considering they're giving their bodies? That is what you meant, right? I assume you didn't mean that the men have the power because they're paying. Generally the one giving the service, whatever it may be, is the one with the majority of the power.

To Dallas: It doesn't matter whether or not it's men or women. If the genders were reversed, I'd think the same thing. If I was female, I'd still think the same thing. Do you not see that, for the most part, these prostitutes have a choice?

Also, it doesn't have to be qualified. Some people think that there's something sinful just in the act of sex. I wanted to know whether you were one of those people. If you're not, then the only way you can really say that the act of sex is immoral is when one person is forced into it against their will. By and large, prostitutes aren't forced into it, and neither are the clients. There is a percentage of prostitutes that are, but they are irrelevant to this discussion.

Bottm line: You continue to intertwine your values with the subject at hand. To you, having sex with someone for a reason other than love is wrong. To many others it's not.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I will not compare having sex for money with someone who is a nanny...I will not reduce a nanny to that level...a nanny takes care of children in the parents abscence..A prostitute takes care of momentarily sexually pleasuring of a man who could survive otherwise..

Blessings

Dallas

Why does it "reduce" the job that a nanny does? Sex falls under the umbrella of how humans relate and interact........caring for children falls under this category, too. And especially "mothering" for a profit - how tragic! ;)

Is this POV coming from the idea that sex outside of marriage - and that fornication or adultery as a business transaction especially - is considered immoral? There are men and women who are committing these acts minus the cash, so why isn't anyone protesting that fornication and adultery be criminalized, as well?

I'm failing to see any false dichotomy with this point.




Peace,
Mystic
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I do not believe sex is immoral..I believe its a gift given by God..In fact I love Song of Solomon it actually helped me embrace my own sexuality.

If someone wants to sell thier body then fine.My concern is how they arived at that decision.The overwhelming data out there is that these are mostly broken people that entered into this occupation believing there was no other choice for them and at a very young age..Then they are basically trapped.And I dotn care how 'safe " you make it these women are at an extremely high risk of being raped..That is unless you dont believe a prostitute can be raped..even if they can 'report" it can they get out then?..Let me guess they dont skip a beat and just hop right up ready to trust another stranger? Where is the money and the organizations to help these people escape if they want to?There are a handful and the stories are pathetically sad..

Or are prostiutes as part of their line of business able to escape the trauma of having someone violate there body with sexual assault.?There is no escaping the facts that sadly many of these people go into this because they have already been abused and are tying to escpae it only to end up in the most by far risky of business to be repeatedly abused. The mind frame is that is all they have to offer.They are litterally prey.And the ones that prey upon them have a keen eye and ability to identify the weakest and the injured and exploit their vulnerabilities.A nanny isnt being targeted for a weakness she has emotioanlly to take care of children...And her risk of being repeatedly assaulted and raped or even murdered are not many many times over what a non nanny risks..

I can not "condone" that personaly..Its inhuman.

And I do not compare people having premarital sex with a seventeen or 18 or 21 year old selling there body to hundreds of strangers for years on end believing they have no alternative which is predominately whos out there for sale.They are also at extremely high risk for drug abuse and its very tellign that many start usign drugs as a way to cope with having to sell thier bodies..People have that in reverse for the most part its not drug abuser turned prostitue to feed a habit..Its prostitue turned drug abuser to numb the pain.

Where pray tell are all these sophisticated financially stable happy and well adjusted prostitutes that were never abused and are set up in business for that to not be a high risk factor?. That entered this business as adults willingly ? Where are the ones that if given a reasonable option they would refuse citing they love what they do or even feel "neutral" about it? Clean and sober as well with all facuties in normal range?.Im sure if you searched and searched and searched you would find a couple.

Bottom line is if you are having sex with a prostitue the overwhelming odds is you are doing it to a child of sexual abuse and or neglect or physical abuse in a grown persons body.That child is still in there whether you like it or not.Wether they "comply"or not..And thats what it is..compliance due to little or no options rather than full consent..IMHO.

Thats is my issue with this..Not that "sex is immoral"..Its beyond just sex.

Im forwrding a description of what many rape victims suffer.

Blessings

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Rape Trauma Syndrome is experienced by rape victims and can be divided into phases.
During the Acute Phase survivors may feel shock, disbelief, or in some way frozen and may attempt to disconnect himself or herself from the person who was raped. Survivors may feel humiliated, confused, dirty, ashamed, or in some way at fault for the assault, particularly if the assailant was an acquaintance. Victims often experience extreme nightmares, heightened anxiety, frequent flashbacks, and a strong attempt to disconnect from one's emotions. They may be in denial, trying to convince themselves that the assault did not actually occur. It is common for a victim of acquaintance rape to try to protect the perpetrator.
Victims may respond to the rape in either an expressive or controlled style. The expressive style involves obvious outward emotions such as crying, shaking, rage, tenseness, ironic and uncomfortable laughter (part of their denial), and restlessness. A controlled style occurs when the victim appears to be quite calm and rational about the situation, even if he or she were facing severe internal turmoil. There is no single response to rape; every individual deals with his or her intensely traumatic emotions differently.
After the acute phase, the Reorganization Phase begins and the survivor attempts to reorganize their life and create the world that they once knew. Despite their best efforts though, this phase is often riddled with feelings of guilt, shame, fear, and anxiety. Emotions such as anger, anxiety, denial, and loss (of security) surface. Development of an inability to trust is frequently caused by sexual assault. This loss of the fundamental need for security wreaks havoc on the survivor’s life, causing the individual to feel completely powerless and without control over his or her own body. The survivor may feel unsafe, which can cause a heightened state of anxiety as well as difficulty with intimate relationships. Victims may attempt to return to normal social interaction (i.e. go out to social engagements), and consequently find themselves unable to do so. Their attempts to re-establish themselves in relationships may be hindered by a lack of trust.
Survivors often isolate themselves from their support network either physically or emotionally. The survivor may feel disconnected from peers as a result of the perceived personal experience. The shattering of trust can adversely affect intimate relationships, as survivors may have a heightened suspicion of other’s motives and feelings.
Sexual assault can change an individual forever by altering their outlook. The end result can be an individual in a constant state of turmoil and in extreme cases, suicide.[3]


Imagine having to go through this and continue to sleep with many differnt strangers because you are stuck?..Not only that imagine if this happened to you as a child and as an adult and it was your occupational hazzard?And that people run around sayign you really like having sex with strangers and you make good money(which is antother not so completely accurate statement) and its O.K because its just sex..Just because you arent raped by everyone.Or just becasue you were only "raped" once.

I find it NO coincidence that many in this "field" have been sexually assaulted as children or otherwise physically battered..no one helped them they got no "therapy" no one cared about them so they run away...and the ones who will help them are just coinsidentally offerign them cushy jobs in the "sex trade"...Using such ignorant statements as why give it a way for free and its no differnt than having sex without gettting paid and HEY take control back...

Blessings

Dallas

Blessings

Dallas
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Or are prostiutes as part of their line of business able to escape the trauma of having someone violate there body with sexual assault.?There is no escaping the facts that sadly many of these people go into this because they have already been abused and are tying to escpae it only to end up in the most by far risky of business to be repeatedly abused. The mind frame is that is all they have to offer.They are litterally prey.And the ones that prey upon them have a keen eye and ability to identify the weakest and the injured and exploit their vulnerabilities.A nanny isnt being targeted for a weakness she has emotioanlly to take care of children...And her risk of being repeatedly assaulted and raped or even murdered are not many many times over what a non nanny risks..

Blessings

Dallas

No, you're correct that a prostitute puts her safety at risk out on the streets. Wouldn't regulation help to protect her?

And it isn't the nanny that is being put at risk, according to certain child psychologists, it's the child. One can argue that having a baby cared for by someone other than his or her natural birth mother damages said child psychologically (in fact, some have argued it here before). Why not the rallying cries to criminalize au pairs? Nannies? Day care centers?

There is a reason why parents are urged to find licensed day care centers. It's true that parents find others who are unlicensed to watch their children, but they do so with the notion that they are putting their children more at risk than if they were to seek out a licensed care-giver. It is this type of regulation that seeks to protect the client, the business, and the state.

So here we have a practice that looks to offer people sex for cash. Were we to legalize prostitution and regulate it, tax it, much like how we do for other "indulgences" like alcohol and cigarettes, and also regulate it like other services by requiring cathouses to be licensed with the state, perhaps we can see these types of tragedies decrease.

The current state of affairs we have now has us running in circles. We are trying to legislate morality in the hopes that we are protecting women and children, and in the end, we're throwing our hands up in desperation when we have this behavior explode in the underground where laws have essentially no impact. The sex trade, vice squads, and prison, and our resources are being exhausted trying to curtail and manage these operations. Something is definitely wrong with this picture.




Peace,
Mystic
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
And it isn't the nanny that is being put at risk, according to certain child psychologists, it's the child. One can argue that having a baby cared for by someone other than his or her natural birth mother damages said child psychologically (in fact, some have argued it here before). Why not the rallying cries to criminalize au pairs? Nannies? Day care centers?

Show me the overwhelming in your face brutal data of this happening in the majority of children ,as well as the again brutal and long term damage in a significant portion of those children including their high risk of beign murdered or committign suiced and I will rally the cause...Oh and the long list of other physical traumas such as infertilty ...(an inability to ever concieve a child) due to beign raised primarily by a loving nanny.

We can deflect and go into all other areas of society where cildren or adults are abused..But we are talking about prostition here and what is already been proven to be true straght out of the mouths of those who endure it.

Blessings

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Give me a 21 year old that has no history of childhood physical or sexual abuse..Who has a high school or equivelant under her/or his belt..That is clean and sober not under the infulence of any brain altering drugs..With no mental disorder diagnosis such as bi-poloar,schitzophrenia or any major affective disorders(unless its completely stabalized with proper medication)..That is full well informed about the risk involved and how to protect themsleves against sexually transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancies..That decides they want to use their God given natural sexuality as a business opportunity..protect them under the same laws as any other woman/man as far as rape and battery so she/he can report this if it occurs at no risk of being prosected for prostitution..get the damn national guard in if you have to in every city for however long it takes to irradicate the blanking pimps.Let her/him be considered a sole proprietership(self employed) on her taxes and pay into social security...Designate an area in a "safe" part of the city thats has efficient police support but "away" from neighborhoods and schools. Allow her/him to advertise with some restrictions as to language. In the yellow pages and via the internet..And I say go for it sweetheart its none of my business and I wish you joy and abundance and keep safe..I am not a judge or jury Im a human being that hurts when another is beign exploited and is suffering greatly and no one seems to see the carnage going on right in front of us and the tremendous human suffering.Its better to believe that they are doing what they want to do and if not so what most of us dont "like' our jobs.

Blessings

Dallas
 
Top