Let's see if we can define 'Islamophobia'.

[stevecanuck]

If you need a refresher, I don’t think the Islamic theological narrative reflects historical fact and is largely an exegetical fabrication. For example I don’t think Muhammad split the moon or flew on a donkey.

Are you still playing that ridiculous false dichotomy game?

So, either Mohamed flew on an donkey and led an army to Tabuk, or he did neither????

C'mon, try harder.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yet over the last few millennia years, Muslims have been no more violent than assorted pagans, Christians or atheists.

It’s not like there were peaceful Romans and Persians minding their own business until some mean Muslims appeared from nowhere and started killing them for no reason.

Roman and Persian Arab mercenaries simply decided they no longer needed to be vassals as their overlords were weak and could be conquered. It’s exactly what happened a century or 2 earlier in the western Empire with the Germanic tribes.

Even if we just take the modern period, they have an exponentially lower body count than Europeans and their offshoots in the Americas.

Cue the off-topic whataboutism.

 

[stevecanuck]

All societies are violent, saying "buuuut there are violent Muslim groups!!!! Big scary Muslims!!" is not a case that they are more violent now or historically.

"Big scary Muslims" slaughtered 1200 people on October 7. What the hell is wrong with you?

 

[paarsurrey]

Let's see if we can define 'Islamophobia'.

Islamophobia - "All Muslims are terrorists."

Gita contains far more verses stating that one can go to heaven by killing enemies. Bible obviously contains such.

Islamophobia is defined as prejudice against all people who belong to the religion of Islam and seeking to justify that prejudice by selective and caricatured broad brushing of their religious views and scriptures.

What about Moses, was he a Muslim or a Terrorist and or both, please, right?

Regards

 

[sayak83]

MSN

I'll start.

Islamophobia - "All Muslims are terrorists."

Not Islamophobia - Acknowledging that verse 9:111 tells Muslims to fight, kill, and be killed in exchange for Allah admitting them to heaven.


Any quibbles so far?

Gita contains far more verses stating that one can go to heaven by killing enemies. Bible obviously contains such.

Islamophobia is defined as prejudice against all people who belong to the religion of Islam and seeking to justify that prejudice by selective and caricatured broad brushing of their religious views and scriptures.

Islamophobia is not just criticism of social and political evils that exist in Muslim societies and countries or discussion on extremist religious tendencies that exist in certain interpretations of Islam.

 

[stevecanuck]

Gita contains far more verses stating that one can go to heaven by killing enemies. Bible obviously contains such.

Islamophobia is defined as prejudice against all people who belong to the religion of Islam and seeking to justify that prejudice by selective and caricatured broad brushing of their religious views and scriptures.

Islamophobia is not just criticism of social and political evils that exist in Muslim societies and countries or discussion on extremist religious tendencies that exist in certain interpretations of Islam.

There's that word again. It's frequently trotted out to imply that the Qur'an can be taken however the reader wants to take it.

 

[GoodAttention]

There's that word again. It's frequently trotted out to imply that the Qur'an can be taken however the reader wants to take it.

So...how do you call the way you read the Quran?

The only way? The right way?

How should the reader "take" the Quran?

Personally I would, at the very least, rely on a person who is literate in Arabic.

 

[sayak83]

There's that word again. It's frequently trotted out to imply that the Qur'an can be taken however the reader wants to take it.

There are indeed many ways a religious text, and in fact any text of literary merit, can be interpreted. Such texts are fundamentally multivalent. For example a Buddhist sutta will be interpreted differently between a Theraveda, Zen and Geluk schools of Buddhism.

 

[stevecanuck]

So...how do you call the way you read the Quran?

The only way? The right way?

How should the reader "take" the Quran?

At it’s word. The Qur’an describes itself as “easy to understand” six times.

Personally I would, at the very least, rely on a person who is literate in Arabic.

That’s why I use the seven translations in corpus.quran.com. For the verses I want to parse for clarity I read all seven and use them as a guide to read the Arabic.

 

[paarsurrey]

That’s why I use the seven translations in corpus.quran.com. For the verses I want to parse for clarity I read all seven and use them as a guide to read the Arabic.

Hasn't one observed that there is sometimes a difference of understanding of meaning by the translators of Quran (in seven translations in corpus.quran.com) and therefore difference of translation among them, please, right? If it happens what does on do, please, right?

There are about 67 translations of Quran at the following website:

Ayah al-Isra` (Children of Israel, The Israelites) 17:79

Right?

Regards

 

[stevecanuck]

There are indeed many ways a religious text, and in fact any text of literary merit, can be interpreted.

Ya know, adding a pseudo-scholarly phrase like the underlined is a sign of putting lipstick on a logical pig.

Words mean things. When Allah says, "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers (2:98)", I'm pretty he means, "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers".

Such texts are fundamentally multivalent. For example a Buddhist sutta will be interpreted differently between a Theraveda, Zen and Geluk schools of Buddhism.

I'll take your word about Buddhist scripture. You can even quibble about some verses of the Qur'an, but not it's overrall message and it's explicit commands to commit violence against unbelievers.

 

[stevecanuck]

Hasn't one observed that there is sometimes a difference of understanding of meaning by the translators of Quran (in seven translations in corpus.quran.com) and therefore difference of translation among them, please, right? If it happens what does on do, please, right?

There are about 67 translations of Quran at the following website:

Ayah al-Isra` (Children of Israel, The Israelites) 17:79

Right?

Regards

I've only found 1 or 2 out of 6,236 verses that had significant differences in translation. If you said, "It's all my fault" as opposed to "I am entirely to blame", the meaning is the same despite no two words being the same.

 

[sayak83]

Ya know, adding a pseudo-scholarly phrase like the underlined is a sign of putting lipstick on a logical pig.

Words mean things. When Allah says, "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers (2:98)", I'm pretty he means, "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers".



I'll take your word about Buddhist scripture. You can even quibble about some verses of the Qur'an, but not it's overrall message and it's explicit commands to commit violence against unbelievers.

Yes. I do not expect much more from you. After all, if you were capable of understanding, you would have understood the first time, not the 10,000 th time.

 

[firedragon]

To start with the least likely origin for any text is god.

You are making a positive claim. So you should have definitive evidence to your claim.

As a result, it would take remarkable evidence before that is more likely than being if human origin. No such evidence has ever been presented, just subjective and unfalsifiable claims.

This is the burden of proof fallacy.

Now. You made another claim.

so much so that early Muslims had to invent multiple genres of literature to explain the Quran and how to interpret it.

Do you have any evidence hard for that?

It’s a common shorthand for the countries that have a Muslim majority population regardless of geographic location.

So you "miraculously" escaped murder by "Muslim Jihadi Fanatics" in the "Muslim world" and it was an "Endless stream of them".

Where was that and for what?

 

[paarsurrey]

That’s why I use the seven translations in corpus.quran.com. For the verses I want to parse for clarity I read all seven and use them as a guide to read the Arabic.

Hasn't one observed that there is sometimes a difference of understanding of meaning by the translators of Quran (in seven translations in corpus.quran.com) and therefore difference of translation among them, please, right? If it happens what does on do, please, right?

There are about 67 translations of Quran at the following website:
Ayah al-Isra` (Children of Israel, The Israelites) 17:79
Right?

I've only found 1 or 2 out of 6,236 verses that had significant differences in translation. If you said, "It's all my fault" as opposed to "I am entirely to blame", the meaning is the same despite no two words being the same.

Friend @stevecanuck .
So, one certifies that Quran is easy to understand **, as it claims to be, and that "1 or 2 out of 6,236 * verses that had significant differences in translation " could be, and or certainly are, due to the misunderstanding of 1 or 2 and or of both the translators of the original Arabic narration/text of Quran, right, please?
Right?

Regards
__________________
" The Quran consists of 114 chapters (19×6). The total number of verses in the Quran including all unnumbered Bismillahs is *6346 (19×334). The cross sum of 6346 is 19. The Bismillah appears 114 times (despite its absence in chapter 9, it appears twice in chapter 27); 114 is 19×6. " Quran code - Wikipedia

**

(19:97:2) yassarnāhu We (have) made it easy فَإِنَّمَا يَسَّرْنَاهُ بِلِسَانِكَ لِتُبَشِّرَ بِهِ الْمُتَّقِينَ وَتُنْذِرَ بِهِ قَوْمًا لُدًّا (44:58:2) yassarnāhu We have made it easy فَإِنَّمَا يَسَّرْنَاهُ بِلِسَانِكَ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ (54:17:2) yassarnā We have made easy وَلَقَدْ يَسَّرْنَا الْقُرْآنَ لِلذِّكْرِ فَهَلْ مِنْ مُدَّكِرٍ (54:22:2) yassarnā We have made easy وَلَقَدْ يَسَّرْنَا الْقُرْآنَ لِلذِّكْرِ فَهَلْ مِنْ مُدَّكِرٍ (54:32:2) yassarnā We have made easy وَلَقَدْ يَسَّرْنَا الْقُرْآنَ لِلذِّكْرِ فَهَلْ مِنْ مُدَّكِرٍ (54:40:2) yassarnā We have made easy ولَقَدْ يَسَّرْنَا الْقُرْآنَ لِلذِّكْرِ فَهَلْ مِنْ مُدَِّ كر

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary

 

[stevecanuck]

So, one certifies that Quran is easy to understand **, as it claims to be, and that "1 or 2 out of 6,236 * verses that had significant differences in translation " could be, and or certainly are, due to the misunderstanding of 1 or 2 and or of both the translators of the original Arabic narration/text of Quran, right, please?
Right?

Yup. Pretty sure I just said that.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yes. I do not expect much more from you. After all, if you were capable of understanding, you would have understood the first time, not the 10,000 th time.

I've bolded the ad hom part of your post. Oh, look! There's nothing left.

 

[BrightShadow]

That was a stupid example of trying to pass off a 'when did you stop beating your wife' question as being legitimate.

Remember, I am NOT the one who is derailing the OP!
You pointed out something - so I am responding. You pointed out "wife beating"!
At first I didn't realize what you were talking about but then I realized you are pointing to a verse in Quran misunderstood by critics as a golden ticket in favor of domestic violence specifically against women by their husbands. When in reality the verse in Quran is not the "cause" of domestic violence, it is not the recommendation - it is simply the "remedy" for domestic violence (something that preexisted in almost everywhere on earth and it was needed to be eradicated slowly in a way humans (new believers) would accept the change!

If you didn't want to derail your own OP - then you should have stayed on the topic and not mention "wife beating" here.

Let me educate you a bit about domestic violence and Islam:
Islam has shown the path of eradication of domestic violence in a way no other religion has done. Quran was introduced at an ancient world of 7th century in a lawless place where barbaric practices against women were going on. Many fathers didn't want a daughter - they wanted a son who can help with their hard work and their livelihood. Raising a daughter was just expensive and they needed to be protected and it costs money when it was time for them to marry them out. It was a world were women were readily mistreated because men are the stronger gender!

In a world where domestic violence against women was the norm and without consequences - Islam progressively restricted men from readily abusing women. It was an impossible task even for a prophet to do it in a single shot! Firstly alcohol was banned and then conditions were set to talk with spouse (wife) first after a dispute or quarrel. If that didn't work then it was suggested to stay away from each other in bed etc. It was a step by step process, a step by step deterrent from resorting to violence!
Do you think it was an easy job to be the prophet and tell men of that era - what they can and cannot do with their wives or to their wives?

I am sure you might agree that - Alcohol plays the biggest role in many domestic violence. After alcohol - domestic violence is usually a product of "crime of passion" or "heat of the moment of an argument". If you take away these two reasons and allow people to just cool off - then a married couple would hardly resort to domestic violence! It is that simple! Islam took away two major reasons behind domestic violence.

Is that not ingenious? Check the verse you are referring to and you may understand!

Once one realizes how domestic violence is progressively eradicated in Islam then one must realize how smart the teaching of Quran really is about every other matter. It takes an intelligent person to understand the benefit one gets from the teachings of the Quran! Are you claiming to be not intelligent enough to understand the message?

Then Allah FAILED to provide the ingridients to bake this cake. He used 6,236 verses to NOT tell you everything you need to know. Brilliant argument. Just frigging brilliant.

God didn't fail!
Basic information regarding how to be a righteous man and believe in a one God ideology is provided in the Quran - the rest is your judgement call and YOU will be responsible for ALL your wrong actions. Don't blame God for your misfortunes, misjudgments and misconducts!

First of all - what makes you think God needs to provide you with anything?
We need God - God doesn't need us!
Whatever is told to us or was delivered to us - was in a "need to know basis".
No need to ignore basic, direct and clear-cut commands or get confused after reading other ambiguous comments that cannot be understood properly without correct historical context!
You are told not to kill. Killing one innocent is like killing the entire humanity.
So, hold your horses - stop - think - and realize killing is not allowed as per Quran - so don't kill - and tell anyone thinking otherwise that Quran says don't kill!
End of story!

And what's the excuse for the previous 1300 years? What was an invading Muslim army doing in France in 732?

First of all - initially the Umayyad were there because their help was requested - so initially they were invited! Second of all - when someone is invited into your home - and they see innocent and brainwashed people worshiping a man (Jesus as God) and other worse stuff and wrong concepts - then sometimes it becomes imperative to guide them and help them open their eyes - so that they stop worshipping a man. That is the right thing to do! How Tariq, Musa and Rahman decided to help was their personal matter. If they did it in an improper way then they will answer to God.
But the coin has two sides and you could look from a different point of view!
I cannot go back in time and I am not expert in all of the history of the world either. But I can tell you that - in a war - unexpectable things happen and sometimes you go with the flow because you are caught up in the moment and you are doing what seems right to you at that moment.
Sometimes simplest reason or a misinformation can make a leader continue on his path. Every detailed reasoning do not make it to the history books even though the reason could be significant!
God in Quran did not tell believers to kill and expand!

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. It is spreading in Europe. Many old abandoned Churches are bought up by Muslim communities and turned into Mosques. Christians are just not going to their churches. So, the biggest threat to Europe was not the invasion of 732 (as you call it). The biggest threat was and still is - the misconceptions that sneaked into the Bibles that derailed the basic concept that was provided to Moses and Jesus - that God is not a Man! God is not in three parts and sins are not washed away by innocent human sacrifice!
So, Islam is spreading in Europe without bloodshed and the way it was ordained. If Tariq, Musa or Rahman from the Umayyad era - did it wrong then blame them BUT do not blame the Quran.
After Muhammad and especially after his immediate followers were all passed away - the future leaders or commanders of any nation or any army don't exclusively represent Islam in a way you may think they do. Only Quran represents Islam in the true sense! No new prophets and no new scripture is coming after Quran. So, if any invasion is not justified by the teaching of the Quran then don't say Muslim soldiers did this - so that must be Islamic.
Remember, if someone's thoughts and deeds don't align with the proper teachings of the Quran then God will deal with them himself. No need to blame Quran or Islam for their action. Blame that self-proclaimed Muslim! But check the real history before doing so!

Utter BS.

Every heard of Asia Bibi?

The vast majority of Pakistani Muslims were fine with the fact that she was sentenced to death for blasphemy. She was lucky to even reach the courts, as many never even get that far. Instead they are beaten to death by Muslim mobs.


Your propaganda BS will never go unchallenged. Best just leave now.

You are bring up an isolated case from a 3rd world country's village. It is not unknown that people turn into a mob when they believe something is offensive or unjust is done to them or to someone they love.
Quran or Islam has nothing to do with it!
Look what Trump supporters did on January 6th 2021. They took action based on their own personal convictions. Regardless whether or not Trump said anything to incite them - their action of breaking the law is their personal choice. They thought they were doing the right thing! Does that mean all Trump supporters will react the same way?

I already pointed out - People don't represent Islam. So, bringing out some people's misguided emotional reactions and trying to blame Quran or Islam won't work with smart people!

If a religion is threatened to be abolished or if the negative propaganda is really causing serious detrimental effect on the survival of the religion or survival of its believers then defensive actions taken should not be viewed as offensive. But people cannot get emotional and take the law in their own hands. If a counter action is needed then it should be done so by a proper court system. A proper court system can determine the course of action to remedy the threat. But it has to a significant threat! If you don't do anything then you might as well turn around and start worshipping a cow or whatever belief system is thrown your way. You have to stand up for what you believe! Otherwise you stand for nothing!
What a mere fruit picker in a village in 3rd world country said - DOESNOT pose any danger for the religion. If she really said some derogatory comments about the prophet during an verbal fight then any true believers should have corrected her without any physical altercations and when she retracted whatever she said or denied saying it in the first place then she should have been forgiven or ignored until she becomes a significant threat again against the truth but people have their personal convictions intertwined with their religious beliefs and sometimes they don't know how to see the difference. Blame the people! Don't blame the Quran!

You say a lot of wrong things - but you are not a threat. No one really believes you. There are many such folks hiding behind their mousepad clicking away all day - NONE of them are a threat in any true sense. Islam is growing regardless of what they say! Because smart people who convert/revert do their due diligence before accepting!

Remember vast majority of the educated Muslims do understand and would not act the way those villagers acted because they know better!

Your original post does cover all the different false, concocted and misunderstood reasons Islam is feared by people like you. So nothing I said should be off-topic!

 

[paarsurrey]

Let's see if we can define 'Islamophobia'.

Islamophobia - "All Muslims are terrorists."

Gita contains far more verses stating that one can go to heaven by killing enemies. Bible obviously contains such.

Islamophobia is defined as prejudice against all people who belong to the religion of Islam and seeking to justify that prejudice by selective and caricatured broad brushing of their religious views and scriptures.

What about Moses, was he a Muslim or a Terrorist and or both, please, right?

What about Ashoka, was he a Muslim or a Terrorist and or both, please, right?

Regards
_________________

What do you think about Quranists?

Only for the religiously insane. O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[BrightShadow]

Below is a link to the 1988 founding charter of Hamas, which is an Arabic acronym for 'Islamic Resistance Movement' as opposed to 'Palestinian Resistance Movement'. It is stated as such 49 times. This distinction alone shows that religion rather than politics is at the heart of their desire to destroy Israel. However, that will become blindingly obvious as you read the charter, as the words 'Allah, Islam(ic), Koran, Moslem(s), and Jihad' appear a combined 290 times, while 36 verses of the Qur'an and 4 hadiths are quoted. The charter was revised in 2107 to, in my opinion, sanitize it for consumption by the West after Hamas realized that it shouldn't have said the quiet part out loud.

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

Here is some Islamic love and tolerance from the charter:

• Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
• Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious.
• The Movement's programme is Islam.
• the Prophet is its example and the Koran is its constitution.
• The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.

Not a "religious conflict"?????

You lie, and lie, and lie with every post.

Once again - the conflict in the middle east is NOT a religious conflict. If an organization is claiming it and you are believing it then they have succeeded to fool you or you have decided to remain ignorant for a different reason because it also works for your agenda!

If you ask anyone else who is neutral (your friends and neighbors) they will tell you - the middle east conflict is NOT a religious conflict!
It is all about oppression - it is all about occupied territory - and a fight to get it back what was taken from them and it is all about 3rd parties taking advantage of the conflict because war means MONEY!

You seem to be a smart guy - you have a smart device - you can type and write. Why don't you use your skills and find out the real "truth" and not the fabrication that is spoon fed to you for years?

Do you believe people represent Islam or do you believe Quran represents Islam?

You didn't you say what context they quoted Quran? You just said 36 verses were quoted!

If someone powerful pushes you out of your house and keeps you somewhere in the outskirt of you home and in an oppressive condition and if you have exhausted all means to gain possession of your house and land back - then I am sure you too would do whatever works to recruit folks to help you with your cause (especially if you can also get some donations from here and there to show that you are fighting for injustice). Am I wrong?