Let's see if we can define 'Islamophobia'.

[BrightShadow]

Yet I showed that virtually the entire population of Pakistan wanted Asia Bibi to die for doing nothing other than defending her beliefs.

Before you point out an incident - research it better!

It seems she said very derogatory comments about Muhammad. It is possible she didn't say any of those things and she was framed by her accusers. In that case shame on her accusers and shame on you for blaming human errors on Islam.

So, the crowd who heard the rumor regarding what she said got angry because they thought she tried to defame their Prophet's name!
I don't have any problem if (without breaking any laws) people stand up for what they believe in or what they love.

You have to stand up for what you believe in! Otherwise you stand for nothing!

You are ignoring that part of the story and trying to say - she was just defending her religion!

How low can you go? Unless you personally know this Asia Bibi and heard her part of the story from her own mouth - you should narrate the story as you read it.

In this internet days when the information is at the finger tips - you cannot go very far by narrating a misleading version of story!
I do not condone violence. Physical altercation with her or her family - should never have taken place but we are talking about villagers from a 3rd world country! How many of them are literate? Some people's misguided emotional reaction should not play any part in blaming Quran or Islam!
Who do you blame about the reactions of Trump supporters on Jan 6th 2001? Some of those who attacked were cops or served in the military! They were not illiterate!

No matter how much you Islamopropagandists spin, we keep getting stories like this:

Once again - you are avoiding to point out the elephant in the room!
The elephant is the middle east conflict!
Solve the conflict and you will see all these so called organizations will go bankrupt because no one will give them any money to fight anymore!
If conflict is ever resolved - then at that point you will realize Quran or Islam had nothing to do with any of your terrorist's attacks.

These so-called organizations are getting money from people because they are showing that they are fighting for their cause and fighting against oppression and fighting to get their land back. If they show some sort of results - then certain misguided folks give them more money!
If any organizations is plotting to kill innocent people then blame the organization and blame the people who are financing them with donations but DO NOT blame the religion or Quran.

Blame those misguided folks for error in their judgment!

Middle east conflict is the cause of all your issues - it has nothing to do with religion of Islam or the Quran!
If you put your coffee mug on the table and an earthquake happens and the coffee mug falls to the floor - do you blame the table or the coffee mug?
Put the blame where it belongs!

 

[firedragon]

Then we can agree that is the more rational assumption for any text.

Are you a rationalist? Well, I never agreed to anything of the sort you are talking about. This is a strawman.

By the way, conjecture is not assumption. I think you have mixed up these terms you are using.

You made a positive claim. Provide evidence to it. Not shift the burden of proof to the other, which is a burden proof fallacy. Which is what you have attempting all throughout. It's fallacious.

Burden of proof fallacy.

 

[Augustus]

Are you a rationalist?

No, I’m an anti-rationalist as I accept all humans are irrational.

Well, I never agreed to anything of the sort you are talking about. This is a strawman.

So you disagree that the most rational starting assumption for any given text is that it is of human origin?

I’m pretty sure you agree with it though as almost everyone starts with this assumption.

 

[BrightShadow]

So unless someone can provide compelling reason why you should assume a text is of miraculous divine origin, you assume it is of human origin.

I am not an expert in this but if true then some evidence is popping up these days due to technological advancement, (e.g. computers can be used to count words etc.)
Check out these videos... there are more online...

This is an old video but this guy's speech is interesting.

 

[firedragon]

So you disagree that the most rational starting assumption for any given text is that it is of human origin?

See, you can attempt a million times to create a strawman so that you can hang on it and delve into it. But it will never change, that you made a positive claim and you are trying to avoid providing evidence to your claim. It's not gonna work.

Provide evidence to your claim. If not, just leave it.

 

[Augustus]

I am not an expert in this but if true then some evidence is popping up these days due to technological advancement, (e.g. computers can be used to count words etc.)
Check out these videos... there are more online...

I find the “scientific miracles” very unpersuasive, especially given that they started as a Saudi PR initiative in the 1980s.

The problem with arguing that linguistic features are evidence of divine origin is that this is a claim being applied backwards. It’s data mining and retrofitting

Countless texts would have numerical coincidences if analysed in great detail (or even planned features based on numbers)

Someone wrote a 200 page novel that is a palindrome, if the Quran had a 200 page palindrome in it no doubt people would trumpet this as being “miraculous”.

 

[Augustus]

See, you can attempt a million times to create a strawman so that you can hang on it and delve into it. But it will never change, that you made a positive claim and you are trying to avoid providing evidence to your claim. It's not gonna work.

Provide evidence to your claim. If not, just leave it.

We both know your starting assumption for every text you encounter is that it is of human origin.

Pretending otherwise would be silly.

I’ve already explained why the Quran does not move me away from this starting position, the same starting position you hold on every text you read.

The same starting position taken by every sane human.

The evidence is that we all see humans writing every day.

Anything there you disagree with?

 

[firedragon]

We both know your starting assumption for every text you encounter is that it is of human origin.

Irrelevant. You are trying your best to build a strawman or shift the burden because you obviously cannot provide any kind of evidence to your positive claim.

Ciao.

 

[BrightShadow]

The problem with arguing that linguistic features are evidence of divine origin is that this is a claim being applied backwards. It’s data mining and retrofitting

I agree about the linguistic features - but what about the scientific discoveries (video#3)? There are more videos with quotations from the Quran!
All coincidences? How did Muhammad knew or even needed to mention them if he wrote it himself? (Remember he wasn't literate!).
And on the flip side - nothing is found yet - that doesn't align with scientific discoveries from our era!

 

[Augustus]

Irrelevant. You are trying your best to build a strawman or shift the burden because you obviously cannot provide any kind of evidence to your positive claim.

Ciao.

Again there is thousands of years of evidence of humans writing texts that has been witnessed by billions of humans while there is precious little of supernatural beings writing them.

Trying to pretend that this is a) not evidence and b) that you don’t agree with me that everyone assumes every text they encounter was written by a human (or perhaps a human coded AI) is odd even by your standards.

Ciao.

 

[Augustus]

but what about the scientific discoveries (video#3)?

I didn’t watch it but have read many texts on “scientific miracles” and they have not been remotely persuasive.

I can look at Paradise Lost by Milton and find “In the Beginning how the Heav'ns and Earth Rose out of Chaos” and claim it is a miraculous understanding of the Big Bang. Or perhaps it’s just ambiguous poetic language…

Which miracle do you find most persuasive and why do you consider it miraculous.

 

[firedragon]

Again there is thousands of years of evidence of humans writing texts that has been witnessed by billions of humans while there is precious little of supernatural beings writing them.

Trying to pretend that this is a) not evidence and b) that you don’t agree with me that everyone assumes every text they encounter was written by a human (or perhaps a human coded AI) is odd even by your standards.

Ciao.

This is just whataboutism.

Not evidence to your positive claim.

 

[Augustus]

This is just whataboutism.

Not evidence to your positive claim.

It’s whataboutism to note that the evidence experienced by billions of people suggests it is more likely a text is written by a human than a divine or magical being?

You are a strange chap.

Ciao

 

[firedragon]

It’s whataboutism to note that the evidence experienced by billions of people suggests it is more likely a text is written by a human than a divine or magical being?

You are a strange chap.

Ciao

See, none of this is evidence to your positive claim. Ad populum is another fallacy. Not evidence.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yes, by all means, let's look at the Islamic atrocity du jour and then have a talk about Christianity:

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[Pawpatrol]

I’ve already explained why the Quran does not move me away from this starting position, the same starting position you hold on every text you read.

It's not that the text doesn't move you away, it's that you're not moved away and you must use logic to explain it, so you come around to all these complicated explanations when all there really is is a lack of faith. It has nothing to do with evidence. After all, I had seen (probably more or less) the same evidence you had when I believed in the Quran while you did not.

 

[paarsurrey]

Let's see if we can define 'Islamophobia'.

Islamophobia - "All Muslims are terrorists."

Gita contains far more verses stating that one can go to heaven by killing enemies. Bible obviously contains such.

Islamophobia is defined as prejudice against all people who belong to the religion of Islam and seeking to justify that prejudice by selective and caricatured broad brushing of their religious views and scriptures.

What about Moses?
Moses killed/beheaded 3000 of his own (Israelite) people, please, right?-Exodus 32:26-29

Was Moses a Muslim or a Terrorist and or both, please, right?
And Moses knew no "Jew" as he never spoke this word from his mouth, so no "Jew"* existed in Moses' times, please, right?
What about Jesus? Friend @stevecanuck
Regards
_______________
*2nd century BCE

Why are Jews called Jews?

The word 'Jew' originates with the ancient Israelite kingdom of Judah, but what its name means is a matter of great controversy. It could even mean 'Thank God'.

www.haaretz.com

Exodus Chapter 32:26-29 32 שְׁמוֹת ​

Exodus 32 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Golden calf - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BrightShadow]

Yes, by all means, let's look at the Islamic atrocity du jour and then have a talk about Christianity:

MSN

www.msn.com

Good old Biden can get some blame for this!
When you leave behind $7 billion of military weapon and equipment in Afghanistan after sudden 2021 withdrawal - it is expected that they are NOT going to go "duck hunting" with all that!

For valid reason or not - when a country is invaded then opposition groups - who don't want you there - learn to fight in organized ways and become militants! It is hard to put the weapons down after you use it in that manner. If you have a hammer - every problem looks like a nail!
So, when Biden suddenly left without securing all issues and left behind billions of dollar worth of weapons - something like this should be predictable!

Are you blaming Quran for this too? This time it was self proclaimed Muslims against other self proclaimed Muslims!
By the way - anyone claiming to be Shiite or Sunni - are already one step away from the "truth" since Islam does not suppose to have any sects!

Do you have notification alert on - for these kinds of news? Have you made a living out of this somehow? I thought you are just someone who can't see things with contexts and someone who cannot connect dots.

Remember - once a militant - always a militant! Blame what made these folks militants - blame the middle east conflict! It all started from that! It is a chain reaction!
Stop blaming the Quran and its teachings!

 

[BrightShadow]

Which miracle do you find most persuasive and why do you consider it miraculous.

If you accept that Muhammad was not literate then you should realize all of it - is a miracle! All the info came 1400 years ago! How could he have known any of it?
Also, if the revalations were not from divine source - then Muhammad didn't need to expand on any pre-existing belief systems and didn't need to correct them in details and didn't need to go into conflict with people who believed in the divinity of Jesus. He could have easily started something new without even mentioning Jesus or Moses or Abraham etc. Right?

 

[stevecanuck]

Was Moses a Muslim or a Terrorist and or both, please, right?

Muslims consider Moses to be a Muslim because he was a true monotheist. Same with Ibrahim, etc.