Let's talk about Hell

[URAVIP2ME]

Correct me if I am wrong, but was that not ended with the Flood? Wiping away mankind walking contrary to God?

Romans [15v4] says the things written aforetime [Hebrew OT Scriptures] were written for our learning or instruction.
So the Flood was a warning example that God will not let the wicked remain permanently on Earth. -2nd Peter 3v9

Please notice the action Jesus will take as described at: Isaiah 11v4; Revelation 19vs11,14,15. The words from Jesus mouth will be like a sharp executioner's sword and he will remove wicked ones. Psalm 92v7; Proverbs 2vs21,22; 10v30.

You may recall Jesus promise that the meek will inherit the 'earth'.
Those that are Not humble meek will not inherit the earth, or earthly realm of God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus.
Compare: Matt 5v5; Psalm 37vs11,29,38

 

[Etritonakin]

Getting better, I can make some sense of that. However, I'm afraid it still has a "me or nobody" aspect to it. It says that we are not of our own selves, and there again, no free will. That makes me not feel like an individual, but part of a puppet species. No matter how wonderful God can make life, if it's not my life I live, then it is void and without life. Our creation becomes conditional, but my basic instincts tell me my creation was unconditional. To follow this I have to ignore my basic instincts, a big no no of my path of right and wrong.

It IS him or nobody -because there IS NOBODY ELSE -he is the ONLY GOD.

It IS what he says or else, because it is NECESSARY. It can't BE any other way and NOT FALL TO RUIN.

It is often said that if we all agreed, life would be boring -but this is not actually true. If we agree on what we SHOULD -it will actually free our time and resources for infinitely more INDIVIDUALITY than ever before. If we disagree on the facts and the truth, we set ourselves up for failure and conflict -but if we don't waste time, energy and resources fighting with each other -all of that can be spent on creativity.
It is said that war has given us great advances -but imagine if all the manpower, resources, time and mental effort spent killing each other were spent on... say... colonizing another planet. We could have made Mars inhabitable by now. Everyone on earth is expressing their "free will" -going with their "instinct", and doing what they want -and so we are constantly in conflict -because we do not agree on the principles which would make the world wonderful -and free our time, energy and resources for pure creativity.

God only tells us what to do because it's the right thing to do. There will always be law -THERE MUST BE LAW. His laws are no different than physical laws -if you do not respect them or consider them -bad things happen as a direct result. God is trying to FREE US by the LAW OF LOVE.

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[Danny Heim]

Danny-

You are right. Living on our God-given earth, or God gifted earth, comes with conditions:
Obey God's rules of love or you can Not live here permanently.

Kind of like if you have an awesome house and invited guests over to stay as long as they want, and help themselves to all they want, as long as they are humble and loving toward each other. Otherwise, rebellious ones could not live in your wonderful house.

Accept you forgot one thing, there were no invitations sent out, you are just there at the party. Add to that, you are required to be humble and loving at this party or be thrown out with the leftovers. I rather be humble and loving because I want and need to be, and suffer my consequences if I'm not.

Using another analogy, wonder if the president declared that to be a citizen of the USA, you have to be humble and loving, that or be sent to the gas chamber. Would that be OK? But it is not that way, freedom and democracy decrees it not to be so, and supposedly, freedom and democracy came from Christianity. From what you are saying, our founding fathers must have read it wrong.

 

[Danny Heim]

It is often said that if we all agreed, life would be boring -but this is not actually true. If we agree on what we SHOULD -it will actually free our time and resources for infinitely more INDIVIDUALITY than ever before. If we disagree on the facts and the truth, we set ourselves up for failure and conflict -but if we don't waste time, energy and resources fighting with each other -all of that can be spent on creativity.
It is said that war has given us great advances -but imagine if all the manpower, resources, time and mental effort spent killing each other were spent on... say... colonizing another planet. We could have made Mars inhabitable by now. Everyone on earth is expressing their "free will" -going with their "instinct", and doing what they want -and so we are constantly in conflict -because we do not agree on the principles which would make the world wonderful -and free our time, energy and resources for pure creativity.

I've been conversing with you on your subject so far, not complaining at all, especially since I'm the one who picked your subject to talk about. But to answer your last comments, let me steer off to my subject for a minute.

In my world, life is not static. We learn what is good for us and what is bad for us (the collective human species). I totally agree with your paragraph above, totally. In a sense, that paragraph is God. Or I should say The Ideal. We are simply not there yet. Just like a criminal who finally hits bottom and realizes that a life of crime is just not worth it, in fact, it could kill him. So we too must come to this realization or it will kill us. Via evolution, we will get there if we live. Not all species will make it to that place, humans may or may not. But there will always be a species that does, it does not have to be humans, it could be sharks. Humans have only been at this for 8 million years; it may take another 8 million to reach that place you describe. Our free will was given to us by the universe (God) and it is a learning process as to how to use it.

We are presently at a brink. But if we get through it, we will have learned a whole lot about free will. And note this, in geologic time, "presently" is about 1500 years, it’s a very, very, very long process.

 

[Etritonakin]

I've been conversing with you on your subject so far, not complaining at all, especially since I'm the one who picked your subject to talk about. But to answer your last comments, let me steer off to my subject for a minute.

In my world, life is not static. We learn what is good for us and what is bad for us (the collective human species). I totally agree with your paragraph above, totally. In a sense, that paragraph is God. Or I should say The Ideal. We are simply not there yet. Just like a criminal who finally hits bottom and realizes that a life of crime is just not worth it, in fact, it could kill him. So we too must come to this realization or it will kill us. Via evolution, we will get there if we live. Not all species will make it to that place, humans may or may not. But there will always be a species that does, it does not have to be humans, it could be sharks. Humans have only been at this for 8 million years; it may take another 8 million to reach that place you describe. Our free will was given to us by the universe (God) and it is a learning process as to how to use it.

We are presently at a brink. But if we get through it, we will have learned a whole lot about free will. And note this, in geologic time, "presently" is about 1500 years, it’s a very, very, very long process.

That all reminds me of the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still" -wherein it was suggested that only at the precipice do we change. However -even as you've said -this is not actually a given.

Another "sci-fi suggestion" is that much of our own current technology has been made possible by reverse-engineering technology from captured UFO's. Perhaps you haven't heard that, but it has been suggested. If such a thing happened, it would allow a great leap in our "evolution" rather than a slow stroll.
I don't know of anyone who would reject a package of super-advanced technology just falling from the sky for us to study -though some might have concerns with how the technology would be used -who should have it -who should not, etc... as such would not solve our spiritual (mental, if you prefer) problems -and the technology could be used for great evil.

But... for some strange reason... another such package containing instructions concerning how to solve our spiritual problems -how to not use resources and technology against ourselves -would most likely be ignored. We would probably use the pages to blow our noses while building weapons. "Thanks for the suggestion, but it wouldn't work here -have to go now -wars to fight and what-not". A package containing the information necessary to skip "8 million years" would probably be scoffed at -or considered a nice idea, but completely impractical.

In 8 million years -if that's how long it might take -we would only -we COULD only -arrive at the conclusion that the ten commandments -given so long ago -were indeed the basis of creating what we have desired all along. Many could agree that the latter commandments -no killing, stealing, lying, etc... would make the world better, but do not understand how the first few commandments could make things better. Essentially, if we ignore the first few commandments, it's like leaving out numbers on one side of an equation. Because God DOES exist, ignoring that makes seeing our environment correctly impossible -and when we see incorrectly, we act incorrectly due to missing information. We might want to be left alone to "evolve", but God KNOWS this will not work -even if we do not. We might think it is our right to be left alone to err for 8 million years -but it is not. We are about to learn that we wouldn't last even a hundred years -and that SHOULD be enough information for anyone -if they allow it to be. God WILL then send his Son to enforce peace. God WILL make us act as we should as a species -and if we have a problem with that WE ARE NOT THINKING CORRECTLY. God WILL solve our problems. If he did not, we would cease to exist -THEREFORE, IT MUST BE DONE. He WILL make us have what we truly want!

I do understand why having someone tell you what to do makes you uncomfortable -or at least why it makes me uncomfortable -and sometimes it is totally rational and correct -but in this case -with God -it is not rational -not correct -and totally unnecessary. You feel that way now -and it is totally understandable -as you have not actually experienced how it will be. When you do see the wonderful world his rule creates, however -and realize he only wants to set us free from misery and free us to create throughout the entire universe -I think you will think much differently -I think you will feel quite free.

6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[no-body]

God WILL then send his Son to enforce peace. God WILL make us act as we should as a species -and if we have a problem with that WE ARE NOT THINKING CORRECTLY. God WILL solve our problems. If he did not, we would cease to exist -THEREFORE, IT MUST BE DONE. He WILL make us have what we truly want!

I do understand why having someone tell you what to do makes you uncomfortable -or at least why it makes me uncomfortable -and sometimes it is totally rational and correct -but in this case -with God -it is not rational -not correct -and totally unnecessary. You feel that way now -and it is totally understandable -as you have not actually experienced how it will be. When you do see the wonderful world his rule creates, however -and realize he only wants to set us free from misery and free us to create throughout the entire universe -I think you will think much differently -I think you will feel quite free.

6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

This has been done before many times in history. It's called brainwashing.

"You either believe what I want and your hand will be moved away from the fire (glory hallelujah) or you will think for yourself and choose damnation, so your hand will be forced into the fire. You have the free will to choose"

 

[Danny Heim]

That all reminds me of the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still" -wherein it was suggested that only at the precipice do we change. However -even as you've said -this is not actually a given.

Another "sci-fi suggestion" is that much of our own current technology has been made possible by reverse-engineering technology from captured UFO's. Perhaps you haven't heard that, but it has been suggested. If such a thing happened, it would allow a great leap in our "evolution" rather than a slow stroll.
I don't know of anyone who would reject a package of super-advanced technology just falling from the sky for us to study -though some might have concerns with how the technology would be used -who should have it -who should not, etc... as such would not solve our spiritual (mental, if you prefer) problems -and the technology could be used for great evil.

But... for some strange reason... another such package containing instructions concerning how to solve our spiritual problems -how to not use resources and technology against ourselves -would most likely be ignored. We would probably use the pages to blow our noses while building weapons. "Thanks for the suggestion, but it wouldn't work here -have to go now -wars to fight and what-not". A package containing the information necessary to skip "8 million years" would probably be scoffed at -or considered a nice idea, but completely impractical.

In 8 million years -if that's how long it might take -we would only -we COULD only -arrive at the conclusion that the ten commandments -given so long ago -were indeed the basis of creating what we have desired all along. Many could agree that the latter commandments -no killing, stealing, lying, etc... would make the world better, but do not understand how the first few commandments could make things better. Essentially, if we ignore the first few commandments, it's like leaving out numbers on one side of an equation. Because God DOES exist, ignoring that makes seeing our environment correctly impossible -and when we see incorrectly, we act incorrectly due to missing information. We might want to be left alone to "evolve", but God KNOWS this will not work -even if we do not. We might think it is our right to be left alone to err for 8 million years -but it is not. We are about to learn that we wouldn't last even a hundred years -and that SHOULD be enough information for anyone -if they allow it to be. God WILL then send his Son to enforce peace. God WILL make us act as we should as a species -and if we have a problem with that WE ARE NOT THINKING CORRECTLY. God WILL solve our problems. If he did not, we would cease to exist -THEREFORE, IT MUST BE DONE. He WILL make us have what we truly want!

I do understand why having someone tell you what to do makes you uncomfortable -or at least why it makes me uncomfortable -and sometimes it is totally rational and correct -but in this case -with God -it is not rational -not correct -and totally unnecessary. You feel that way now -and it is totally understandable -as you have not actually experienced how it will be. When you do see the wonderful world his rule creates, however -and realize he only wants to set us free from misery and free us to create throughout the entire universe -I think you will think much differently -I think you will feel quite free.

6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

I'll dido all that, just a difference in how, who and what does it, the same results can occur. In that regard, it is all about God; it's just what one sees as God, who should really care? My God, your God, everybody's God, all want the same thing (we hope). I already know I will feel free, because I already do. If I believed entirely in what you say, then I would be uncomfortable, see what I mean? It is the same for you I'm sure. Let's be glad for that. I look forward to more discussion with you; you seem to have a good hold on what you believe. I find it hard to talk to people who don't understand what they think they understand. Keep coming at me, as I will you and maybe we'll solve the riddles of the universe.

 

[Danny Heim]

I want to relpy to what Etritonakin said here:

But... for some strange reason... another such package containing instructions concerning how to solve our spiritual problems -how to not use resources and technology against ourselves -would most likely be ignored. We would probably use the pages to blow our noses while building weapons. "Thanks for the suggestion, but it wouldn't work here -have to go now -wars to fight and what-not". A package containing the information necessary to skip "8 million years" would probably be scoffed at -or considered a nice idea, but completely impractical.

I said I agreed with all Etritonakin said, however, I want to make another point. He's right, we may blow our nose with the spiritual literature, and we surely have already. But, then again, we haven't altogether. Had we not had the Bible, the Vedas, the Koran, the Tibetan Book of the dead, and perhaps even the Satanic Bible, in other words, ALL spiritual literature, and secular literature as well such as Thoreau, James, Blake, Jung and so on, we most likely would have not made it this far.

But this does not mean that we do not need to continue to examine what we have. It does not mean we are done reading, studying and exploring even better literature, perhaps the real spiritual literature that can help achieve "Heaven" has not been even written down yet. I think we still have a ways to go. We are still infantile in our learning; obviously, look at the oil spewing into the Gulf, Afghanistan, Iraq, financial bailouts and on and on.

What is it in those books that we can ALL agree on? Besides Hell or who's good and who ain't, etc. Something is there for ALL of us. And so what if one chooses to disbelieve one aspect or another. I very much disagree with any notion of hell, or heaven for that matter, since it is exclusive. BUT SO WHAT?? Let me attack hell, you attack atheist, so what. We can also comply with what is right for all of us, like keeping our species alive and well.

And to the Christians I say this; YOU are our biggest block to achieving spiritual harmony. Your "one way or hell" theme is standing in our way. Most religions don't do this. I'd be glad to hear if there are others I'm not aware of. Join the party, quit being so independent. I know it is difficult to not do since your dogma says you are suppose to, but read it again, maybe it is saying something else, let's hope so.

 

[Eliot Wild]

And to the Christians I say this; YOU are our biggest block to achieving spiritual harmony. Your "one way or hell" theme is standing in our way. Most religions don't do this. I'd be glad to hear if there are others I'm not aware of. Join the party, quit being so independent. I know it is difficult to not do since your dogma says you are suppose to, but read it again, maybe it is saying something else, let's hope so.

I think this is an excellent point.

At times, I have considered responding to some of the posts in this thread in which scripture was quoted to validate a particular position or opinion. But then I quickly dismiss that idea because the only reply I can make to someone who validates their opinions with scripture is to ask them to prove to me that their particular holy book is indeed the infallible word of God.

And since nobody has yet been able to prove the existence of God, there is certainly no way for anyone to prove that God wrote a book.

My point is this, it seems pretty much a waste of time to me to try and discuss and/or debate a subject with someone who places the Bible above human reasoning.

And I find this to be very, very sad. It is obvious to me that if God does exist, then there is no way possible that He/She would choose to impart Divine knowledge through something as fallible as the written word. I honestly believe it is somewhat crazy, at least naive, to think such a thing. The written word is completely fallible. Language undergoes considerable changes over time. Words lose and/or change their meanings. New words are incorporated into languages regularly and old words just get lost completely sometimes.

I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with believing there is a God. Personally, I find evidence for the existence of God in nature. However, I have just not yet found anything conclusive. I believe God is possible. And in all honesty, I certainly hope there is a God.

The problem with many Christians and other religious adherents is that I believe they make the mistake of believing their God has chosen to communicate his laws and instructions through a medium that is severly fallible and therefore unreliable.

Think about it, if God were going to communicate with man, wouldn't it have been better choice to have done so through mathmatics rather than human language? And if you don't think it is possible to communicate in mathmatics, then I recommend you read Carl Sagan's novel Contact.

 

[Danny Heim]

My point is this, it seems pretty much a waste of time to me to try and discuss and/or debate a subject with someone who places the Bible above human reasoning.

That is right on, because therein lies the crux of the communication problem. Most Christians think non-believers don't have an open mind to what they are saying, when in fact, because of just exactly what you said above, the opposite it true. What-a-ya-gonna do? They have the supposed backing of the ultimate word. If they could use the Bible as a reference material, like any other book on earth, and not the exact last word, then the Bible itself becomes much more useful among ALL of us.

 

[Etritonakin]

This has been done before many times in history. It's called brainwashing.

"You either believe what I want and your hand will be moved away from the fire (glory hallelujah) or you will think for yourself and choose damnation, so your hand will be forced into the fire. You have the free will to choose"

No -MEN have done it all wrong -THEY have done it the way you say...

With God, it's more like....

"You either believe what is true and stop sticking your hand into the fire and messing up the creation or you will think for yourself and choose to continue sticking your hand in the fire and messing up the creation. You have the free will to choose to live or die, as obeying me causes and sustains life -and disobeying me makes life miserable and destroys life. I will allow you to have your free will long enough to prove that it only leads to destruction -and if you still refuse to continue destroying everything and misusing it, I will personally throw you into that fire -and if you still refuse you will cease to exist, because you would only make life miserable for everyone else."

If you truly believe God does not exist -why do you waste so much time thinking about it?

He has given you a choice -and you can opt out -but it is pointless.
God is not saying "don't think for yourselves" -but rather "Think about this. I'm going to tell you what you should do -but you do have the free will to think and do otherwise until you just about destroy all life -then I'll show you how to do it right."

If you don't think this is true -go do something you do see as productive -go think for yourselves until these things do or do not happen -ain't NOBODY stopping you at this point -and if you don't believe the above, you shouldn't think anyone will. Go on with yer bad self and evolve! Simply let the religious be selected for extinction if that's what you think will happen.
I'm totally cool with that!

 

[no-body]

No -MEN have done it all wrong -THEY have done it the way you say...

With God, it's more like....

"You either believe what is true and stop sticking your hand into the fire and messing up the creation or you will think for yourself and choose to continue sticking your hand in the fire and messing up the creation. You have the free will to choose to live or die, as obeying me causes and sustains life -and disobeying me makes life miserable and destroys life. I will allow you to have your free will long enough to prove that it only leads to destruction -and if you still refuse to continue destroying everything and misusing it, I will personally throw you into that fire -and if you still refuse you will cease to exist, because you would only make life miserable for everyone else."

If we are strictly sticking to the Abrahamic God of the bible then I disagree, he is exactly giving us the choice stated in my original statement. Either believe John 3:16 or burn/die/whatever. There is no room for any other philosophy or religion. To me an omnipotent being wouldn't care whether someone believed the story of a Jewish carpenter coming back from the dead and suffering for them, communicated through the fallible medium of men and books. A truly just God would rather look at what a person does no matter if they are Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic even Atheist.

If you truly believe God does not exist -why do you waste so much time thinking about it?

He has given you a choice -and you can opt out -but it is pointless.
God is not saying "don't think for yourselves" -but rather "Think about this. I'm going to tell you what you should do -but you do have the free will to think and do otherwise until you just about destroy all life -then I'll show you how to do it right."

If you don't think this is true -go do something you do see as productive -go think for yourselves until these things do or do not happen -ain't NOBODY stopping you at this point -and if you don't believe the above, you shouldn't think anyone will. Go on with yer bad self and evolve! Simply let the religious be selected for extinction if that's what you think will happen.
I'm totally cool with that!

Because this strict black and white definition of God has steeped into human culture, history, politics, etc and gave us such things as the dark ages. I'll stop worrying about it when Christians stop imposing their views on everyone else (usually while at the same time claiming they are persecuted)

 

[Etritonakin]

And to the Christians I say this; YOU are our biggest block to achieving spiritual harmony. Your "one way or hell" theme is standing in our way.

Would it surprise you to know that I agree with this? I would not say the "biggest block"... but the fact that many Christains spread untruths about even what's written in the bible makes many not want to hear another word about God -whereas even the bible says to be all things to all people -and to make knowledge acceptable -rather than being a bunch of fanatical freaks whose attitudes and actions close minds as soon as they arrive on any scene.

Take that goober and his followers protesting at military funerals -that isn't Christian -it isn't even human -and obvioulsy goes against Christ's instructions to mourn with those who mourn, etc...

GOD'S WAY is NOT "one way or hell" -that is a LIE. God's way is "any way but the right way makes life a living hell".

Most of what people believe about the God of the bible and Christ is WRONG.

It is nearly impossible to think about God or Christ or the bible without all of the absolute stupidity that has been spread about them displacing any truth one might actually learn.

I spend more time when in forums, etc..trying to get past others'
misconceptions about God and the bible than I do actually making my point.

The stupid people you encounter are not God -if you have any interest in God at all, forget all that stupidity and ask HIM what's going on. He does exist, and if you are TRULY SINCERE he will answer -but how many who don't believe he exists are going to do that?

(I'd agree most aren't helping -and some are definitely hurting, but their absence would not make much of a difference in how the rest got along.)

 

[Etritonakin]

If we are strictly sticking to the Abrahamic God of the bible then I disagree, he is exactly giving us the choice stated in my original statement. Either believe John 3:16 or burn/die/whatever. There is no room for any other philosophy or religion. To me an omnipotent being wouldn't care whether someone believed the story of a Jewish carpenter coming back from the dead and suffering for them, communicated through the fallible medium of men and books. A truly just God would rather look at what a person does no matter if they are Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic even Atheist.

Because this strict black and white definition of God has steeped into human culture, history, politics, etc and gave us such things as the dark ages. I'll stop worrying about it when Christians stop imposing their views on everyone else (usually while at the same time claiming they are persecuted)

Ultimately, there actually is no room for any other philisophy or religion -because the truth is the truth or it isn't.
HOWEVER, as these other things DO EXIST, God obvioulsy made room for them. He has not burned everyone of any other religion or philosophy...
AND IS NOT PLANNING TO DO SO.

HE DOES CARE more about what you do than what you believe!!!!!!!!!!! Those who have not believed are not doomed, because he never planned to call most of mankind to him YET. Those who have died NOT "in Christ" will be resurrected and judged ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS at the second resurrection. Those who have done good works will fare well accordingly -not be burned -they will then believe in God and Christ because they will be staring at them!

..and as for what men have done to each other in the name of God -don't blame God for that -many of those WILL feel the proverbial "heat"!!!!!

Those who believe in John 3:16 and do evil works will be judged by their evil works -and those who do not believe or have never even heard of Christ, yet do good works -WILL FARE BETTER -THEY MAY RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE.

If you're rejecting what most people say about God, Christ, hell, the bible -whatever -I'm totally with you -it's mostly horsepucky and should indeed be rejected!

If God exists, then he is as he is and is not as he is not -so the definition would have to be "black and white" -but this doesn't mean that the popular definitions are correct.

I really want to explain this more -will continue this later.

Just so you know, I do not try to impose my views on others. I don't like to waste my time, and don't believe God is calling everyone now, anyway (as the bible states that none can come to God except God first calls them -and that he does so not all at once). I'm merely making information available.

 

[Danny Heim]

Would it surprise you to know that I agree with this? I would not say the "biggest block"... but the fact that many Christains spread untruths about even what's written in the bible makes many not want to hear another word about God -whereas even the bible says to be all things to all people -and to make knowledge acceptable -rather than being a bunch of fanatical freaks whose attitudes and actions close minds as soon as they arrive on any scene.

Take that goober and his followers protesting at military funerals -that isn't Christian -it isn't even human -and obvioulsy goes against Christ's instructions to mourn with those who mourn, etc...

GOD'S WAY is NOT "one way or hell" -that is a LIE. God's way is "any way but the right way makes life a living hell".

Most of what people believe about the God of the bible and Christ is WRONG.

It is nearly impossible to think about God or Christ or the bible without all of the absolute stupidity that has been spread about them displacing any truth one might actually learn.

I spend more time when in forumes, etc..trying to get past others'
misconceptions about God and the bible than I do actually making my point.

The stupid people you encounter are not God -if you have any interest in God at all, forget all that stupidity and ask HIM what's going on. He does exist, and if you are TRULY SINCERE he will answer -but how many who don't believe he exists are going to do that?

(I'd agree most aren't helping -and some are definitely hurting, but their absence would not make much of a difference in how the rest got along.)

Well I believe you about your feelings about other supposed Christians, becasue of how you have presented your views, your are an exception.

I do have an interest in God, and I have ask him what's it about and he has answered. Don't assume I do not know God just because I am not Christian. That is the crux of this discussion from my side. God comes to all who want to hear him/her/it, however one sees God. Everything you talk about Etritonakin makes good sense to me, except that dang bit about your God should be my God. It is there where we go miles apart. And it is there I come here to fight against. And Hell is the foundation of all that.

For me, God is just a word to describe the wonder of it ALL. It is the wonder and the Ah that I follow, the universe is "heaven and hell" combined, and God is the manifestation of the universe, not the other way around, for me, that is, and that is very important to distinguish.

 

[no-body]

Ultimately, there actually is no room for any other philisophy or religion -because the truth is the truth or it isn't.
HOWEVER, as these other things DO EXIST, God obvioulsy made room for them. He has not burned everyone of any other religion or philosophy...
AND IS NOT PLANNING TO DO SO.

HE DOES CARE more about what you do than what you believe!!!!!!!!!!! Those who have not believed are not doomed, because he never planned to call most of mankind to him YET. Those who have died NOT "in Christ" will be resurrected and judged ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS at the second resurrection. Those who have done good works will fare well accordingly -not be burned -they will then believe in God and Christ because they will be staring at them!

..and as for what men have done to each other in the name of God -don't blame God for that -many of those WILL feel the proverbial "heat"!!!!!

Fine. I see nothing intrinsically wrong with this. What I do worry about is that these types of beliefs foster a bad/cultish atmosphere for family and children in society. After all if you think your family is going to burn/die whatever if they don't truly believe what you do to be saved, you are probably willing to do some terrible things to them "for their own good"

Those who believe in John 3:16 and do evil works will be judged by their evil works -and those who do not believe or have never even heard of Christ, yet do good works -WILL FARE BETTER -THEY MAY RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE.

If you're rejecting what most people say about God, Christ, hell, the bible -whatever -I'm totally with you -it's mostly horsepucky and should indeed be rejected!

If God exists, then he is as he is and is not as he is not -so the definition would have to be "black and white" -but this doesn't mean that the popular definitions are correct.

I really want to explain this more -will continue this later.

Just so you know, I do not try to impose my views on others. I don't like to waste my time, and don't believe God is calling everyone now, anyway (as the bible states that none can come to God except God first calls them -and that he does so not all at once). I'm merely making information available.

Seeing as that God is not around to answer to the unfairness of his rules, I like to ask his followers.

Truth is subjective. How do you know that your truth is the ultimate objective truth? Faith? A feeling? To be truthfully objective it would have to stand up to empirical theory. Where you born into your beliefs or did you convert as soon as you witnessed the overpowering "truthfulness" ?

 

[MurphtheSurf]

I believe I'm in the right spot. I want to talk to Christians about Hell. That is all I wish to talk to you about, though I will not reject to your witnessing at all, besides, that is what I'm doing. Witnessing for the right to evolve. So fire away. But please, I would appreciate it if you could keep this debate to Hell only. Thank you.

It's a question really, one I must ask by making a statement first. Well, a story really. But just to get the idea, Why Hell?

Let's go to Hell for a minute.

I'm Ed and I'm dead; a human on earth who failed to get salvation from Jesus Christ. In the Christian faith one either goes to Heaven or goes to Hell sometime after death. In this case, Ed is going to Hell.

It's Ed's time and God does not see Ed in his book, so Peter throws him into the lake of fire, something like that. I think that is actually pretty much it. Oh except one thing, Ed's there for eternity.

Sot it's hot, actually, Ed is on fire. He has landed on hot rocks and they are scraping his knees and his palms and burning at the same time. In fact his is totally on fire. He is in Hell for sure and he is on literal fire. And it hurts; it is searing pain of boils and burned skin. But he sees that he is not dieing. He is as alive as he was when he was thrown in 40 minutes ago. And he wonders when they will get him, but knows they are never going to come, but he can’t believe it and screams for help.

It's been 124 years. Ed still burns, his pain has never let up for 124 years. His pleas for help still fill the hot flames and brush the flames back into his eyes that burn constantly. He is engulfed in fire. It has now been 84,213 years. Ed screams have grown weird and finally at 700 million years to the day Ed stops screaming for one split second and realizes he is just beginning.

It has now been 41 zillion years times a 1000 zillion years that Ed has burned in Hell. He has another moment and he realizes he may as well have been there for 10 minutes, because this time will repeat again at another 41 zillion times a 1000 zillion years and that will still be just the beginning. And then the beginning starts again....

Get it?
I gotta ask. How’d this idea ever get this far?

When Christianity went apostate around the third and fourth centuries, they decided that teaching truth would not result in the worldly power and prestige that "church fathers" desired. The scriptures speak of this happening in many places. So, to draw pagans in and disciples after themselves, (Acts 20:30) they adopted and adapted pagan beliefs to satisfy and dupe the pagan majority. A couple of the cornerstones of false religion has always been the immortality of the soul and Hell fire. Both thoughts can be traced back thousands of years to Egypt and Babylon, and neither of these teachings can be supported by scripture, in fact these teachings are denied by scripture.
The 4th century "church" also adapted the God dishonoring pagan teaching of the trinity also.
When you think of it, it's really very simple, if "God is love" then fiery Hell could not possibly exist. It was and is still used today as a tool to scare the ignorant and the gullible into submission.
I imagine that what I have posted has probably already been addressed, but I haven't read anything beyond the first post yet.

 

[Etritonakin]

Everything you talk about Etritonakin makes good sense to me, except that dang bit about your God should be my God.

I have not said "my God should be your God". I don't think that it is possible that you could think or believe any differently than you now do! You do not think or believe as you once did -nor will you always think or believe as you now do -though some parts thereof might remain.

I, personally, believe the one true God WILL BE everyone's God EVENTUALLY -but that's between him and everyone. I discuss what I believe and have experienced with those who will to do so -if they are civil about it. I have no interest in convincing those who have no interest, but make information available for those who do.

I don't think you should believe anything you do not believe -but I do believe what you experience in the future will change what you believe.

I also try to counter misunderstandings about the God of the bible and Christ -so that people at least know what they're rejecting -or so that some might not reject God simply due to false information.

I believe God will eventually reveal himself to you -and you will believe in him and understand him -and until such time as that happens (or does not happen) I wish you well. I think your determination to do what is good for all -regardless of belief -is quite honorable.

 

[Etritonakin]

Fine. I see nothing intrinsically wrong with this. What I do worry about is that these types of beliefs foster a bad/cultish atmosphere for family and children in society. After all if you think your family is going to burn/die whatever if they don't truly believe what you do to be saved, you are probably willing to do some terrible things to them "for their own good"

Seeing as that God is not around to answer to the unfairness of his rules, I like to ask his followers.

Truth is subjective. How do you know that your truth is the ultimate objective truth? Faith? A feeling? To be truthfully objective it would have to stand up to empirical theory. Where you born into your beliefs or did you convert as soon as you witnessed the overpowering "truthfulness" ?

1) People taking things to extremes has more to do with the people than simply their beliefs, but I would definitely agree that when people twist scripture it can be the basis for abuse -but, again, this is not the fault of what is written -but the fault of those who twist what is written to conform to their own belief. This is true of all belief systems. A lack of beliefs or of a belief system would not lessen humanity's tendency toward abuse -whereas teaching a TRUE AND PROPER belief system could. That said, the popular -and FALSE -concept of hell,etc... does have a negative effect. There will be a "lake of fire" -but it is not like the popular concept at all. Consider human history -we blow the living hell out of each other for the slightest of things -and defend our reasoning. Now consider all of the humans who have ever lived. Can you think of at least one that might benefit from havning a fire lit under his butt by God -so to speak?

2) God's rules are in no way unfair. Please explain which rules you find unfair.

3) I was not born into my beliefs. I have experienced many things which have led me to believe what I do. My truth is not the ultimate truth. The ultimate truth is what it is regardless of our beliefs. Unless you experience that which causes you to believe differently, why should you? Still -should there come a time when the ultimate truth is staring you in the face -how could you not believe it? I do not look down on others, but feel rather humbled by experiencing what I have experienced. I have experienced wonderful and horrible things -some of which most would not believe unless experienced for themselves. I hope they eventually see what I see. This is not vanity -a scientist is not vain for wanting to share a discovery -nor am I for wanting to share what I have had the honor of understanding.

 

[MurphtheSurf]

God's rules are in no way unfair. This is so.
1 John 5:3

For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome

There is only one way that God's commandments can be burdensome.
They're burdensome to the people who reject them or have the "Burger King" mentality.

God's commandments are a protection, if you choose to observe them.