Let's talk about Hell

[Etritonakin]

Actually, to be in touch with reality is better than believing in the impossible, much time and money is wasted believing in impossibilities.

But... ummm.... isn't that essentially what they told Columbus and many others???
God is not an impossiblity. To believe so is to blind one's self.

I've done a lot of travelling. I've seen the reality we've created, and, for the most part, it freakin' sucks.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The way of thinking that will save us is available to all us right now. Thinking that it will eventually come is what makes it not there. After all the future is just a version of now that isn't here yet.
That is why Heaven and Hell are such good ideas to control people. It plays on everyones (un?)natural instinct to think satisfaction will eventually arrive along with fear of the unknown.

Jesus did Not have fear of the unknown.
Jesus wasn't teaching natural or un-natural instinct .
Animals go by instinct. Humans have a conscience to guide them.

Jesus knew hell was the stone-cold common grave of mankind.
Wolf-like clergy dressed in sheep's clothing use fire as scare tactics in other to fleece the flock for their own agenda, often political.

Jesus believed the dead are in a deep sleep-like state as he said at John 11vs11-14. That is why when Jesus was in hell [Acts 2vs27,31] Jesus knew he would Not be conscious again until God resurrected him. -Ecc 9v5.

The word Gehenna is often translated as hellfire. What was Gehenna?
Gehenna was a garbage dump where things were destroyed Not kept burning forever. So Gehenna [hellfire] is a Bible symbol of destruction not forever burning. Wicked are destroyed or annihilated see Psalm 92v7.

 

[Danny Heim]

Jesus did Not have fear of the unknown.
Jesus wasn't teaching natural or un-natural instinct .
Animals go by instinct. Humans have a conscience to guide them.

Jesus knew hell was the stone-cold common grave of mankind.
Wolf-like clergy dressed in sheep's clothing use fire as scare tactics in other to fleece the flock for their own agenda, often political.

Jesus believed the dead are in a deep sleep-like state as he said at John 11vs11-14. That is why when Jesus was in hell [Acts 2vs27,31] Jesus knew he would Not be conscious again until God resurrected him. -Ecc 9v5.

The word Gehenna is often translated as hellfire. What was Gehenna?
Gehenna was a garbage dump where things were destroyed Not kept burning forever. So Gehenna [hellfire] is a Bible symbol of destruction not forever burning. Wicked are destroyed or annihilated see Psalm 92v7.

The wicked. What an interesting word...and hellfire, also interesting...resurrected, fascinating...and then there's, "Not kept burning forever"...and Psalm.
Oh but let's not forget "agenda" and "political", equally fascinating. Just words though, nothing more. Don't worry, I mean nothing by it, just an observation of words.

 

[no-body]

Jesus did Not have fear of the unknown.
Jesus wasn't teaching natural or un-natural instinct .
Animals go by instinct. Humans have a conscience to guide them.

Jesus knew hell was the stone-cold common grave of mankind.
Wolf-like clergy dressed in sheep's clothing use fire as scare tactics in other to fleece the flock for their own agenda, often political.

Jesus believed the dead are in a deep sleep-like state as he said at John 11vs11-14. That is why when Jesus was in hell [Acts 2vs27,31] Jesus knew he would Not be conscious again until God resurrected him. -Ecc 9v5.

The word Gehenna is often translated as hellfire. What was Gehenna?
Gehenna was a garbage dump where things were destroyed Not kept burning forever. So Gehenna [hellfire] is a Bible symbol of destruction not forever burning. Wicked are destroyed or annihilated see Psalm 92v7.

Most of what you quote is from Paul and John supposedly channeling Jesus, not any words of Jesus himself. The true Jesus taught the timeless message of now that has been espoused by all true Bodhisattva's "heaven is in the midst of you"

These enlightened states of being are not about reverting to an animal instinct or not thinking, despite descriptions such as "no-mind" they are about tapping into the power of God that is always there.

 

[Beta]

I do agree we should definitely deal with the here and now. We need to get off our behinds and start creating a new way of doing things. Infrastructure, economics, policy, everything, because up to now, it appears our out worn systems are simply not keeping up.
We can't do this sort of change with out a new way of thinking. We have to do it now, we don't have much time. It could take 50 years to make this sort of change. If we keep farting around with wars, money, governments and the systems like they are, we ain't gonna make it. Climate change is right on our tail, follow the science on that. It is good to know about this right now. Google this exact phrase: "worse than previously thought"

Friend , we haven't got 50 years - not even 5 years. And it will take this world by surprise just as scripture predicts.
Man's time is almost up and nothing we come up with now can change our situation. We are on COUNT-DOWN !!! Do you think 6000 years has not been long enough to put this world to rights ? Instead we have noticeably run it into the ground these last few years with the banking crisis, economic collapse, government scandals not to mention genocides, wars, mass starvation etc etc etc.....non of these will get any better now we are on the slippery slope.
What answer has science got to human failures ??? Sure it can improve (and has done) our material lives but it is impotent in the face of deteriorating morals established by our Creator. Think they don't matter ? They are the very CORE of human success - now totally lacking in mankind !:yes:

 

[Danny Heim]

Friend , we haven't got 50 years - not even 5 years. And it will take this world by surprise just as scripture predicts.
Man's time is almost up and nothing we come up with now can change our situation. We are on COUNT-DOWN !!! Do you think 6000 years has not been long enough to put this world to rights ? Instead we have noticeably run it into the ground these last few years with the banking crisis, economic collapse, government scandals not to mention genocides, wars, mass starvation etc etc etc.....non of these will get any better now we are on the slippery slope.
What answer has science got to human failures ??? Sure it can improve (and has done) our material lives but it is impotent in the face of deteriorating morals established by our Creator. Think they don't matter ? They are the very CORE of human success - now totally lacking in mankind !:yes:

I don't know about the five years thing, but I totally agree that we are lost morally. We don't know who we are. We forgot about 1500 years ago. Oh, and actually it's 8 million years ago, not 6000. It was 6000 years ago we woke up to civilization.

We can come up with something to reverse ourselves, I have to believe that. Of course science can't come up with all the answers, but we will need lots of science to help us do that. The first thing we need to do is admit we have been fools. Until we see that our approach has been wrong, we won't know what to do about making it right. I realize how that can sound like an impossibility. But in the face of extinction, we might just wake up real quick. You would think we've had enough by now, but I guess it's going to take more crap, and it is possible we will just go down all the way.

I am not opposed to the idea that some God may come out of the parting clouds and set us straight, could be Jesus, could be a UFO, could be a huge eagle, or a tree, who knows what. But the responsible thing to do is not wait for someone to save us, let's do all we can now and if in the mean time someone or something shows up to give us a little help, well then that’ll just be pretty freaking fantastic!

 

[Etritonakin]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Biblically, Adam was created nearly 6,000 years ago -and is the first to be made in the image and likeness of God -with the potential to be made immortal. The bible states that God created the earth, and then the earth BECAME "formless and void" (probably due to the rebellion -attempted coup -of the third of the angels under Lucifer from earth -as he said he would "ascend above the heights of the clouds" when he attempted to dethrone God -and was already Satan in Eden -no longer obedient Lucifer) before being renewed in preparation for the events in Eden, but does not say that other humanoids could not have existed -and does NOT say the initial creation of the earth was 6,000 years ago. The bible does say God renewed the earth in seven days, but also says that, to God, a thousand years is as a day. The bible sates that Adam was the first man -but this is not the same as the scientific definition of "man". I'm not sure where evolutionists draw the line between apes and man, but "man" in the bible refers to those beginning with Adam and Eve.
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Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

URAVIP2ME ??? COMMENTS???

 

[Danny Heim]

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

URAVIP2ME ??? COMMENTS???

Reminds me of the little church I went to as a kid on the farm. I used to love to hear the preacher read the bible from the pulpit on a warm spring day, waiting for Sunday dinner, stomach growling. The pews would pop and crackle here and there, small coughs from worn out dairy farmers would echo the small congregation, in a church made of wood, and paint.

A very fond memory, sincerely.

 

[Etritonakin]

MMMMMMkay....

By the above I am not suggesting that it says some will be tormented without the possibility of an end to the torment -just that some will not listen to reason -or even believe in God even if they saw the dead raised -and that some tormenting will indeed take place.

The first verses are a statement -the second bunch a parable for that which is yet future.

Just wonering what URAVIP2ME might say about these.

While I'm thinking about it.....
What do you (DannyHeim) want to happen to the "Christians" you are "against"?

 

[no-body]

Friend , we haven't got 50 years - not even 5 years. And it will take this world by surprise just as scripture predicts.
Man's time is almost up and nothing we come up with now can change our situation. We are on COUNT-DOWN !!! Do you think 6000 years has not been long enough to put this world to rights ? Instead we have noticeably run it into the ground these last few years with the banking crisis, economic collapse, government scandals not to mention genocides, wars, mass starvation etc etc etc.....non of these will get any better now we are on the slippery slope.
What answer has science got to human failures ??? Sure it can improve (and has done) our material lives but it is impotent in the face of deteriorating morals established by our Creator. Think they don't matter ? They are the very CORE of human success - now totally lacking in mankind !:yes:

Right just like the world ended in 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, and 1975. And before that the black plague was the end of the world and thousands of other wrong predictions because the end times have been foretold since the first creature could think. I guess using a weaselly word like "imminent" gives you a lot more lee-way than actually picking a specific date. Wouldn't want people thinking for themselves and thinking you're wrong or anything.

 

[Beta]

Right just like the world ended in 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, and 1975. And before that the black plague was the end of the world and thousands of other wrong predictions because the end times have been foretold since the first creature could think. I guess using a weaselly word like "imminent" gives you a lot more lee-way than actually picking a specific date. Wouldn't want people thinking for themselves and thinking you're wrong or anything.

As we read from scripture that is the exact response mankind has to offer - unbelief, skepticism, ridicule......
It would never occur to intellects that they may have read the Bible wrong - of course not, so it's obviously GOD's fault when things don't turn out as THEY understand it. How deplorably human !!!
If someone came along today and told what will happen people would not believe it any more than they did in Noah's day, Why should they when they don't believe God , Jesus , the Prophets and Apostles ??? The Bible tells us they wouldn't , so they are allowed to think for themselves right into the grave.:sleep: God respects your free choice !

 

[Beta]

I don't know about the five years thing, but I totally agree that we are lost morally. We don't know who we are. We forgot about 1500 years ago. Oh, and actually it's 8 million years ago, not 6000. It was 6000 years ago we woke up to civilization.

We can come up with something to reverse ourselves, I have to believe that. Of course science can't come up with all the answers, but we will need lots of science to help us do that. The first thing we need to do is admit we have been fools. Until we see that our approach has been wrong, we won't know what to do about making it right. I realize how that can sound like an impossibility. But in the face of extinction, we might just wake up real quick. You would think we've had enough by now, but I guess it's going to take more crap, and it is possible we will just go down all the way.

I am not opposed to the idea that some God may come out of the parting clouds and set us straight, could be Jesus, could be a UFO, could be a huge eagle, or a tree, who knows what. But the responsible thing to do is not wait for someone to save us, let's do all we can now and if in the mean time someone or something shows up to give us a little help, well then that’ll just be pretty freaking fantastic!

Friend you misunderstand , I did not say we had 5 years - nor did I say from whatever time you imagine. ETRITONAKIN gave the right answer. The Bible counts time from A & E which has to do with the Creation and Salvation of mankind. If we don't get the basics right nothing else will fit.
Comparing God and Jesus to things created (eagle, tree, Imaginary ufo ) is exactly the thing to keep people in darkness and ignorance Rom.1.
And how do you think science can instil morals and love (respect) to God and neighbour ? YOU are the one promoting science as our saviour - why haven't you got a solution ? We have no time to fiddle while this world goes to it's doom.
I promote God and HE has a solution - if only people would accept it.
I realize I am a little premature with this offer but it is in the hope to spare more suffering in these last days.

 

[Beta]

Reminds me of the little church I went to as a kid on the farm. I used to love to hear the preacher read the bible from the pulpit on a warm spring day, waiting for Sunday dinner, stomach growling. The pews would pop and crackle here and there, small coughs from worn out dairy farmers would echo the small congregation, in a church made of wood, and paint.

A very fond memory, sincerely.

Forget your sentimental memories my friend (this from a simple farm girl) and concentrate on the present reality . :rainbow1:

 

[no-body]

As we read from scripture that is the exact response mankind has to offer - unbelief, skepticism, ridicule......
It would never occur to intellects that they may have read the Bible wrong - of course not, so it's obviously GOD's fault when things don't turn out as THEY understand it. How deplorably human !!!
If someone came along today and told what will happen people would not believe it any more than they did in Noah's day, Why should they when they don't believe God , Jesus , the Prophets and Apostles ??? The Bible tells us they wouldn't , so they are allowed to think for themselves right into the grave.:sleep: God respects your free choice !

And who can argue with that kind of logic?

I'll leave this quote from Morris Cohens Reason and nature:

To be sure, the vast majority of people who are untrained can accept the results of science only on authority. But there is obviously an important difference between an establishment that is open and invites every one to come, study its methods, and suggest improvement, and one that regards the questionings of its credentials as due to wickedness of heart..Rational science treats its credit notes as always redeemable on demand, while non-rational authoritarianism regards the demand for redemption of its paper as a disloyal lack of faith

 

[Danny Heim]

MMMMMMkay....

By the above I am not suggesting that it says some will be tormented without the possibility of an end to the torment -just that some will not listen to reason -or even believe in God even if they saw the dead raised -and that some tormenting will indeed take place.

The first verses are a statement -the second bunch a parable for that which is yet future.

Just wonering what URAVIP2ME might say about these.

While I'm thinking about it.....
What do you (DannyHeim) want to happen to the "Christians" you are "against"?

I just want Christians to help pitch in and evolve with the rest of us, nothing more. For them to do that they will most certainly have to deal with their thinking about things--As will all of us, we ALL have to change, a very strong majority at least.

 

[Danny Heim]

Friend you misunderstand , I did not say we had 5 years - nor did I say from whatever time you imagine. ETRITONAKIN gave the right answer. The Bible counts time from A & E which has to do with the Creation and Salvation of mankind. If we don't get the basics right nothing else will fit.
Comparing God and Jesus to things created (eagle, tree, Imaginary ufo ) is exactly the thing to keep people in darkness and ignorance Rom.1.
And how do you think science can instil morals and love (respect) to God and neighbour ? YOU are the one promoting science as our saviour - why haven't you got a solution ? We have no time to fiddle while this world goes to it's doom.
I promote God and HE has a solution - if only people would accept it.
I realize I am a little premature with this offer but it is in the hope to spare more suffering in these last days.

I don't know, I guess I am reading it wrong somehow, but didn't you say, "we haven't got 50 years - not even 5 years", how am I getting that wrong??

Could you explain this a little more, couldn't get it:
The Bible counts time from A & E which has to do with the Creation and Salvation of mankind. If we don't get the basics right nothing else will fit.

"Comparing God and Jesus to things created (eagle, tree, Imaginary ufo ) is exactly the thing to keep people in darkness and ignorance Rom.1."
Yes, we are in darkness, and opening up to all possibilities, or simply saying we don't know yet, is what will begin to bring us into light.

And how do you think science can instil morals and love (respect) to God and neighbour ? YOU are the one promoting science as our saviour
Here is exactly what I said about science,"Of course science can't come up with all the answers, but we will need lots of science to helpus do that."
I am not seeing anywhere in that statement that says science can "instil morals and love (respect) to God and neighbour" I'd never say that, and I certainly would never say science is our "saviour". I'll be clearer. Science will have to help us evolve in the areas of science, not morals and love...of course not! Those answers will come from all of us and how we decide to live in this world together.

"why haven't you got a solution ? "
The only thing I can suggest right now is to give up on the idea that we know what we are doing, none of us do, including Christians. We have to first admit defeat, that we are not very far evolved yet and that apparently we have been going at civilization all wrong. One concrete suggestion I would to start with is to get rid of the free-enterprise system of economics and learn to share as equally as possible the burdens and the rewards. Which would do heaps for our morality as well as our inequities of income. Because for one, the concept of income would have to drastically change. Changing these few things alone would keep us busy for the next 20 years.

"I promote God and HE has a solution - if only people would accept it."
I have no problem with that, but he had better hurry because we aren’t getting it.

 

[Danny Heim]

Forget your sentimental memories my friend (this from a simple farm girl) and concentrate on the present reality . :rainbow1:

well, sorry, couldn't help it, reading those scriptures put me back there

 

[Danny Heim]

Danny said;

edit
Conversely, I am not saying to you your God is OK, in fact, I am fighting against your idea of God, Jehovah, and the Christian dogma about him and Jesus. Becasue I beleive it is the number one contributor to our(the human species) stagnation in evolution. Yes, I am prostualizing (sp?)



Your way of thinking is not unique. Christendom has made such a mess out of Christianity that many people just throw in the towel and give up. I had my church experience years ago as a young adult and did the same thing. But once when a person starts to learn what the Bible really teaches, and does so with an open mind, putting aside the falsehoods that have actually become a part of our Western culture, the truth will shine forth exposing the falsehoods that religion tries to sell us. Then and only then can one form an appreciation for what the Father and the son hold out to us all.

makes sense

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Right just like the world ended in 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, and 1975. And before that the black plague was the end of the world and thousands of other wrong predictions because the end times have been foretold since the first creature could think. I guess using a weaselly word like "imminent" gives you a lot more lee-way than actually picking a specific date. Wouldn't want people thinking for themselves and thinking you're wrong or anything.

People, not God, make mistakes. Jesus forewarned us at Matthew [24v24] that even the elect could be involved. But also we can see by Matthew [13v41] that even angels are involved to maneuver matters to remove wrong or bad influence from the congregation.

There is nothing wrong with being 'alert' and in expectation of something good that there will be an end times to the badness on earth when God will bring to ruin those that ruin earth.- Rev 11v18 B.

Jesus told us [Matt. 24v36] that even he did not know the day or hour.......

 

[Danny Heim]

To be honest, I have been quite surprised to find that the old Christian idea of hell has changed so much. Tell me someone, or all of you. Is this idea of hell that you guys have been talking about a widespread thing in Christianity today, or are the majority still saying we burn forever? And, is it still that one must be "saved"? In other words, pray the sinners prayer and repent/make Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior, or go to hell.