Let's talk about Hell

[DoctorAnswerMan]

I have read the Hebrew Scriptures and the so-called New Testament as well. Many, many times and continue to do so. In my reading I have come to a rather interesting conclusion. You see everyone does seem to fall into the 'two choices' syndrome. You know, you live a good life and at the end of your days the magic carpet takes you to heaven. Or, you don't do such a good job and....well, you know, you get to shovel coal in Hell for ETERNITY! (How many folks do you really think are good enough for Heaven or bad enough for Hell?)

Well anyway, back to my point, in studying these verses over and over I have come to discover a third option! Yes! It started with little clues. Take for example Psalms 37:11 (which most are familiar with) "But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." Maybe your bible reads this way, "But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." But notice the clue - the meek, that is those humble folks who are so highly spoken of by Jesus and other highly ranked scriptural personalities, will inherit what? Heaven? Hell? No! The earth! Imagine that. Where did God allegedly install the newly created humans in the Genesis account? Why right here on the good old green. The green Garden of Eden.

Interesting thought. And then the clues kept growing.....

 

[Hawkins]

Let's go to Hell for a minute.

That boils down to the question that what will humans be in a permanent separation from God. In such a separation, the fallen angels turned themselves into devils (beasts in revelation).

Revelation 16:9
They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Ed may no longer be human at all, he firmly refuses to repent but continues to sin.

Hitler might well be a good good man when he's 20 in age before turning himself fully to a demon. If you can't be sure about who you will be, take God's advice and return to Him by taking the New Covenant as a gift. A wise man makes wise choice as we are creatures of the present, we can't know the future and we can't know the past.

 

[Danny Heim]

When Christianity went apostate around the third and fourth centuries, they decided that teaching truth would not result in the worldly power and prestige that "church fathers" desired. The scriptures speak of this happening in many places. So, to draw pagans in and disciples after themselves, (Acts 20:30) they adopted and adapted pagan beliefs to satisfy and dupe the pagan majority. A couple of the cornerstones of false religion has always been the immortality of the soul and Hell fire. Both thoughts can be traced back thousands of years to Egypt and Babylon, and neither of these teachings can be supported by scripture, in fact these teachings are denied by scripture.
The 4th century "church" also adapted the God dishonoring pagan teaching of the trinity also.
When you think of it, it's really very simple, if "God is love" then fiery Hell could not possibly exist. It was and is still used today as a tool to scare the ignorant and the gullible into submission.
I imagine that what I have posted has probably already been addressed, but I haven't read anything beyond the first post yet.

Yes it has been addressed but you addressed it about as well as I've read. I appreciate that history you gave. It reminded me of my first college class, it was history orietation class, 1 hour, assistant prof. Anyway, the first thing out of his mouth in the very first class was, "I am not here to teach you about history, I am here to turn you away from God." Everyone was shock. And he was serious. But that is where I remember first hearing the reference you gave, which shocked me, Christian farm boy and all. That was 37 years ago, I still remember it like yesterday.

 

[Danny Heim]

I have read the Hebrew Scriptures and the so-called New Testament as well. Many, many times and continue to do so. In my reading I have come to a rather interesting conclusion. You see everyone does seem to fall into the 'two choices' syndrome. You know, you live a good life and at the end of your days the magic carpet takes you to heaven. Or, you don't do such a good job and....well, you know, you get to shovel coal in Hell for ETERNITY! (How many folks do you really think are good enough for Heaven or bad enough for Hell?)

Well anyway, back to my point, in studying these verses over and over I have come to discover a third option! Yes! It started with little clues. Take for example Psalms 37:11 (which most are familiar with) "But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." Maybe your bible reads this way, "But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." But notice the clue - the meek, that is those humble folks who are so highly spoken of by Jesus and other highly ranked scriptural personalities, will inherit what? Heaven? Hell? No! The earth! Imagine that. Where did God allegedly install the newly created humans in the Genesis account? Why right here on the good old green. The green Garden of Eden.




Interesting thought. And then the clues kept growing.....

Very interesting comments. I so agree, if there is a heaven, it's earth. Just look at what we have, it's gotta be heaven. Air, water, soil, and every other kind of diversity you can imagine. heck of a thing.
edit
I almost forgot. I noted your interpretation of the meek inheriting the earth, to take it literally is very interesting. Of course, all prophets are interesting, I love 'em.

edit
if i use the wor "interesting" one more time, shoot me

 

[Danny Heim]

I have not said "my God should be your God". I don't think that it is possible that you could think or believe any differently than you now do! You do not think or believe as you once did -nor will you always think or believe as you now do -though some parts thereof might remain.

I, personally, believe the one true God WILL BE everyone's God EVENTUALLY -but that's between him and everyone. I discuss what I believe and have experienced with those who will to do so -if they are civil about it. I have no interest in convincing those who have no interest, but make information available for those who do.

I don't think you should believe anything you do not believe -but I do believe what you experience in the future will change what you believe.

I also try to counter misunderstandings about the God of the bible and Christ -so that people at least know what they're rejecting -or so that some might not reject God simply due to false information.

I believe God will eventually reveal himself to you -and you will believe in him and understand him -and until such time as that happens (or does not happen) I wish you well. I think your determination to do what is good for all -regardless of belief -is quite honorable.

Hey well I put this way, "We takin' Jeehoova her' buddy"? eh

 

[Danny Heim]

That boils down to the question that what will humans be in a permanent separation from God. In such a separation, the fallen angels turned themselves into devils (beasts in revelation).

Revelation 16:9
They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Ed may no longer be human at all, he firmly refuses to repent but continues to sin.

Hitler might well be a good good man when he's 20 in age before turning himself fully to a demon. If you can't be sure about who you will be, take God's advice and return to Him by taking the New Covenant as a gift. A wise man makes wise choice as we are creatures of the present, we can't know the future and we can't know the past.

You could say, for me I figure I already have the "New Covenant as a gift". When one sees clearly that we are a planet miraculously circulating (actually we are just speeding past each other back and forth, I get into that...) Sorry for the interruption.

Anyway, we receive gifts, they come in many ways, all can be like Covenants. I have made many Covenants with Gaia. This earth is alive and is a being. Whoops, sorry, now I’m preaching. J

It’s all what you experience. All these GUYS are powerful. I may not get my power from Jehovah, and I may not agree Jesus was what Christian’s brought him to be, he was but an avatar to follow, and we’ve had many. All wonderful; except, um, well, ggee I-I. All right, JEHOVAH!

That guy, or at least the manner he is portrayed in the Old Testament….man, he was a bad dude. But many Gods have been bad as well; the list is very long and goes back at least 7000 years. But I am just saying, I can’t see how Christians are fixed are on their God being the all in one guy. So does Krishna, Buddha, Wonkon Tonka and on and on. But none of them are like you guys, man, you can’t go anywhere, you are stuck in three places in the universe: earth, heaven and hell. That’s a small universe. And so it goes with your dogma, there is no penetrating it, crossing it over to other religions, just you their alone at the top of the heap. That’s a heavy burden to bear. It is so much lighter to not carry any load at all, just walk along side instead and enjoy the view.

Dang it! I’m preaching again, “Martha!--get my”…..”No get my”…..I gota go.

 

[Etritonakin]

I have read the Hebrew Scriptures and the so-called New Testament as well. Many, many times and continue to do so. In my reading I have come to a rather interesting conclusion. You see everyone does seem to fall into the 'two choices' syndrome. You know, you live a good life and at the end of your days the magic carpet takes you to heaven. Or, you don't do such a good job and....well, you know, you get to shovel coal in Hell for ETERNITY! (How many folks do you really think are good enough for Heaven or bad enough for Hell?)

Well anyway, back to my point, in studying these verses over and over I have come to discover a third option! Yes! It started with little clues. Take for example Psalms 37:11 (which most are familiar with) "But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." Maybe your bible reads this way, "But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." But notice the clue - the meek, that is those humble folks who are so highly spoken of by Jesus and other highly ranked scriptural personalities, will inherit what? Heaven? Hell? No! The earth! Imagine that. Where did God allegedly install the newly created humans in the Genesis account? Why right here on the good old green. The green Garden of Eden.

Interesting thought. And then the clues kept growing.....

True -the bible actually states that no man has ascended to heaven except Christ -and that no one is now in hell or purgatory -and that our reward is not heaven, but to inherit the earth -initially -and the entire universe eventually. We may see the "third heaven" -where the throne of God is now -eventually -but that is not our reward. There is a lake of fire (it is not the popular idea of hell), and who will be cast there is up to God -but they will not be those who have erred innocently. Men throughout history have done horrible things to each other -but who is deserving of what is up to God. (1st heaven=the atmosphere, 2cd=space, 3rd=wherever the throne of God is now. Here is a scripture about a guy who knew a guy who was given a vision thereof...
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.)

 

[Etritonakin]

Hey well I put this way, "We takin' Jeehoova her' buddy"? eh

I have no clue what that means.

Nice psalm 64ing though -planned all along or recently suggested by another? I'm interested in how it spreads.

 

[Etritonakin]

This is from another thread......

You know there has been some research done on this... it has very interesting implications for dichotomous thinkers.
Basically they appear to show heightened fear response.

wa:do

The "one true religion" would definitely ground one in reality -make the feel secure because they actually were secure.

When one is uncertain if anything is truly safe or that anyone has their best interest at heart, certainly their "fear response" will be heightened.
This is used by some as a means of control -removing all that makes a person feel safe -then offering themselves as provider of safety.
It's the old protection racket taken to extremes -and since the "safety" provided is false, the mental/spiritual state of the subject continues to deteriorate due to the dichotomy -and can actually cause a personality to split -to actually make a person a dichotomy. Yes -some actually try to split others' personalities. This was actually attempted on me -and being grounded in the one true religion made it far less effective immediately -and completely inneffective eventually.
Fear is the mindkiller.

(Those are the sort of people who might be thrown into the lake of fire.... if they don't turn.)

 

[no-body]

1) People taking things to extremes has more to do with the people than simply their beliefs, but I would definitely agree that when people twist scripture it can be the basis for abuse -but, again, this is not the fault of what is written -but the fault of those who twist what is written to conform to their own belief. This is true of all belief systems. A lack of beliefs or of a belief system would not lessen humanity's tendency toward abuse -whereas teaching a TRUE AND PROPER belief system could. That said, the popular -and FALSE -concept of hell,etc... does have a negative effect. There will be a "lake of fire" -but it is not like the popular concept at all. Consider human history -we blow the living hell out of each other for the slightest of things -and defend our reasoning. Now consider all of the humans who have ever lived. Can you think of at least one that might benefit from havning a fire lit under his butt by God -so to speak?

I somewhat agree but at the same time respectfully disagree. There is no future way of thinking that will eventually arrive to save us and the sooner everyone realizes this the more we can live in the right now--which is all there ever will be--and fix the problems.

2) God's rules are in no way unfair. Please explain which rules you find unfair.

I've gone over this before ad infinitum but here it goes again: God killed himself for rules that he set up in the first place to get worship and obedience from his creations. You see it as a second chance of love or whatever I see it as a sadistic experiment. He could have forgiven Adam and not sacrificed His son in a sick way.

I guess if you make the rules, fair and unfair are whatever you want to make them be but by objective standards one woman making one man eat an apple and dooming all humanity doesn't seem very merciful.

Usually I get non responses or logical fallacies "you just don't understand God/free will/keep reading the bible etc"

3) I was not born into my beliefs. I have experienced many things which have led me to believe what I do. My truth is not the ultimate truth. The ultimate truth is what it is regardless of our beliefs. Unless you experience that which causes you to believe differently, why should you? Still -should there come a time when the ultimate truth is staring you in the face -how could you not believe it? I do not look down on others, but feel rather humbled by experiencing what I have experienced. I have experienced wonderful and horrible things -some of which most would not believe unless experienced for themselves. I hope they eventually see what I see. This is not vanity -a scientist is not vain for wanting to share a discovery -nor am I for wanting to share what I have had the honor of understanding.

Sure, If I die and I am immediately resurrected in front of God I will have no choice but to believe. But we'll see.

 

[Danny Heim]

I have no clue what that means.

Nice psalm 64ing though -planned all along or recently suggested by another? I'm interested in how it spreads.

I am not attempting any ambush, sorry, I was just being whacky. My question was still direct though.
You said this:
I don't think you should believe anything you do not believe -but I do believe what you experience in the future will change what you believe.

and this:
I believe God will eventually reveal himself to you -and you will believe in him and understand him -

So I was asking, are you talking about Jehovah? When you say, "I have not said "my God should be your God" but then say "I, personally, believe the one true God WILL BE everyone's God EVENTUALLY". Well, if that one true God you are referring to is Jehovah, then you really can't say to me in earnest that you don't think "my God should be your God" . Because Jehovah's commandments state, "thou shalt not have any other Gods before me".
That makes all the difference in the world. Your religion demands that you spread the word of Jehovah thru Christ. I said earlier, "For me, God is just a word to describe the wonder of it ALL. It is the wonder and the Ah that I follow, the universe is "heaven and hell" combined, and God is the manifestation of the universe, not the other way around, for me, that is, and that is very important to distinguish."
You can't have it both ways. You can't say to me my idea of god is OK, and still follow Jehovah. Saying you respect my belief and then say but someday it will change...see what I mean? And of course you can't, you are a Christian. A pagan can say that to me, a Hindu can, a Buddhist can, a Native American can, but Christians can't.

edit
Conversely, I am not saying to you your God is OK, in fact, I am fighting against your idea of God, Jehovah, and the Christian dogma about him and Jesus. Becasue I beleive it is the number one contributor to our(the human species) stagnation in evolution. Yes, I am prostualizing (sp?)

 

[Danny Heim]

In hell I will never need a lighter. Good enough for me.

had to laugh

 

[MurphtheSurf]

Danny said;

edit
Conversely, I am not saying to you your God is OK, in fact, I am fighting against your idea of God, Jehovah, and the Christian dogma about him and Jesus. Becasue I beleive it is the number one contributor to our(the human species) stagnation in evolution. Yes, I am prostualizing (sp?)



Your way of thinking is not unique. Christendom has made such a mess out of Christianity that many people just throw in the towel and give up. I had my church experience years ago as a young adult and did the same thing. But once when a person starts to learn what the Bible really teaches, and does so with an open mind, putting aside the falsehoods that have actually become a part of our Western culture, the truth will shine forth exposing the falsehoods that religion tries to sell us. Then and only then can one form an appreciation for what the Father and the son hold out to us all.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I somewhat agree but at the same time respectfully disagree. There is no future way of thinking that will eventually arrive to save us and the sooner everyone realizes this the more we can live in the right now--which is all there ever will be--and fix the problems.
I've gone over this before ad infinitum but here it goes again: God killed himself for rules that he set up in the first place to get worship and obedience from his creations. You see it as a second chance of love or whatever I see it as a sadistic experiment. He could have forgiven Adam and not sacrificed His son in a sick way.
I guess if you make the rules, fair and unfair are whatever you want to make them be but by objective standards one woman making one man eat an apple and dooming all humanity doesn't seem very merciful.
Usually I get non responses or logical fallacies "you just don't understand God/free will/keep reading the bible etc"
Sure, If I die and I am immediately resurrected in front of God I will have no choice but to believe. But we'll see.

First of all, Adam was created perfect. Satan was created perfect.
Being perfect they could only deliberately choose to do right or do wrong.
Perfect creation does Not repent nor show remorse for sinning.
They do not turn back or turn around.
Because they could only do wrong on purpose, deliberately, intentionally there can be no forgiveness. We, on the other hand, being imperfect of healthy mind and body can do wrong by mistake. We can repent and feel remorse and sorrow and can turn around to try to do right.

God did not kill himself. God can not die. Jesus was killed by his enemies.

As far as being immediately resurrected there are those of chapter 15 of 1st Corinthians that at the time of Jesus ruling in the heavens would have an immediate resurrection to rule with Jesus in the heavens as kings and priests.

As for the rest, or majority of mankind, as Acts [24v15] says there is going to be a resurrection of the just and unjust, righteous/ unrighteous. The prophet Daniel [12v2,13] looked forward to be awakened from death's deep sleep from the dust of the ground on resurrection morning, or Jesus millennial-long day of ruling over earth.

The willfully wicked at that time are not resurrected but destroyed- Psalm 92v7. Jesus words will be like an executioner's sword executing enemies to destruction or annihilation. - Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19vs11,14,15.

 

[Danny Heim]

I somewhat agree but at the same time respectfully disagree. There is no future way of thinking that will eventually arrive to save us and the sooner everyone realizes this the more we can live in the right now--which is all there ever will be--and fix the problems.

I've gone over this before ad infinitum but here it goes again: God killed himself for rules that he set up in the first place to get worship and obedience from his creations. You see it as a second chance of love or whatever I see it as a sadistic experiment. He could have forgiven Adam and not sacrificed His son in a sick way.

I guess if you make the rules, fair and unfair are whatever you want to make them be but by objective standards one woman making one man eat an apple and dooming all humanity doesn't seem very merciful.

Usually I get non responses or logical fallacies "you just don't understand God/free will/keep reading the bible etc"

Sure, If I die and I am immediately resurrected in front of God I will have no choice but to believe. But we'll see.

I like everything you said there. I want to make a point about this one:

"There is no future way of thinking that will eventually arrive to save us and the sooner everyone realizes this the more we can live in the right now--which is all there ever will be--and fix the problems. "

I disagree about a part of this, I think there is a way of thinking that will eventually arrive to save us. We just don't know exactly what it is yet. It sure isn't our way of thinking now though, is it?

I do agree we should definitely deal with the here and now. We need to get off our behinds and start creating a new way of doing things. Infrastructure, economics, policy, everything, because up to now, it appears our out worn systems are simply not keeping up. We can't do this sort of change with out a new way of thinking. We have to do it now, we don't have much time. It could take 50 years to make this sort of change. If we keep farting around with wars, money, governments and the systems like they are, we ain't gonna make it. Climate change is right on our tail, follow the science on that. It is good to know about this right now. Google this exact phrase: "worse than previously thought"

 

[Etritonakin]

At the end of the day, either Christ returns and rules or he doesn't. I see no sense in being against what anyone believes will or will not happen. Disagreeing -yes -being against -no. If God and Christ exist, being against them is as fruitless as being against evolution if they do not. ( Though one can believe in some of evolution and still believe in God) If they did not exist, do evolutionists really believe evolution could be stopped by those who don't believe in it? If God and Christ do exist, do Christians really believe evolutionsists might thwart God's plan?

What will happen will happen -and we all pretty much have to deal with it! If we say we truly want to do what is best for all, we should realize that fighting against what others believe is pointless and counterproductive -not matter what we believe. What will happen will happen whether or not we fight about it, talk about it -or just let it happen -only the path would be different -or how we spent our time meanwhile.

We can't change the minds of people who don't want their minds changed. However, as people rarely just believe things -but act on them -and their actions affect each other ....should we be against each other and act against each others beliefs -or respect each others right to be who they now are? No one can possibly be any different than they now are -but we can -and should all be different than we were! "Christians" sometimes push their views on others -but so do all else.
When we do not agree on the basic principles, conflict is inevitable -but until such time as we all agree -whether it be by evolution or the rule of Christ -we can be tolerant of others -respectful of others -seek to minimize our negative effect on others -increase our positive effect -realize that what we may see as positive another may see as negative -and not be belligerent about making them change their views -state your case when appropriate and welcomed -or absolutely necessary.

To disagree is understandable -to be "against" is to declare war. Diplomacy and dialogue are fine -but when they fail, separate -or be prepared for widespread misery. There is only one reality -and it will prove us all wrong. We are newbies in a mind-bogglingly expansive universe -how could it not? Even those who believe the bible is inspired by God could still never expect to know as much as God knows.

We should try to agree peacefully -but be prepared to not agree anytime soon. When peoples' lives are unfairly affected by others, action is sometimes necessary -but if more people just lived their lives as peacefully as possible and stopped stirring up trouble, things would be a whole lot better -and we'd all probably listen a whole lot quicker.

 

[logician]

At the end of the day, either Christ returns and rules or he doesn't. I see no sense in being against what anyone believes will or will not happen. Disagreeing -yes -being against -no. If God and Christ exist, being against them is as fruitless as being against evolution if they do not. ( Though one can believe in some of evolution and still believe in God) If they did not exist, do evolutionists really believe evolution could be stopped by those who don't believe in it? If God and Christ do exist, do Christians really believe evolutionsists might thwart God's plan?

What will happen will happen -and we all pretty much have to deal with it! If we say we truly want to do what is best for all, we should realize that fighting against what others believe is pointless and counterproductive -not matter what we believe. What will happen will happen whether or not we fight about it, talk about it -or just let it happen -only the path would be different -or how we spent our time meanwhile.

We can't change the minds of people who don't want their minds changed. However, as people rarely just believe things -but act on them -and their actions affect each other ....should we be against each other and act against each others beliefs -or respect each others right to be who they now are? No one can possibly be any different than they now are -but we can -and should all be different than we were! "Christians" sometimes push their views on others -but so do all else.
When we do not agree on the basic principles, conflict is inevitable -but until such time as we all agree -whether it be by evolution or the rule of Christ -we can be tolerant of others -respectful of others -seek to minimize our negative effect on others -increase our positive effect -realize that what we may see as positive another may see as negative -and not be belligerent about making them change their views -state your case when appropriate and welcomed -or absolutely necessary.

To disagree is understandable -to be "against" is to declare war. Diplomacy and dialogue are fine -but when they fail, separate -or be prepared for widespread misery. There is only one reality -and it will prove us all wrong. We are newbies in a mind-bogglingly expansive universe -how could it not? Even those who believe the bible is inspired by God could still never expect to know as much as God knows.

We should try to agree peacefully -but be prepared to not agree anytime soon. When peoples' lives are unfairly affected by others, action is sometimes necessary -but if more people just lived their lives as peacefully as possible and stopped stirring up trouble, things would be a whole lot better -and we'd all probably listen a whole lot quicker.

Actually, to be in touch with reality is better than believing in the impossible, much time and money is wasted believing in impossibilities.

 

[Danny Heim]

At the end of the day, either Christ returns and rules or he doesn't. I see no sense in being against what anyone believes will or will not happen. Disagreeing -yes -being against -no. If God and Christ exist, being against them is as fruitless as being against evolution if they do not. ( Though one can believe in some of evolution and still believe in God) If they did not exist, do evolutionists really believe evolution could be stopped by those who don't believe in it? If God and Christ do exist, do Christians really believe evolutionsists might thwart God's plan?

What will happen will happen -and we all pretty much have to deal with it! If we say we truly want to do what is best for all, we should realize that fighting against what others believe is pointless and counterproductive -not matter what we believe. What will happen will happen whether or not we fight about it, talk about it -or just let it happen -only the path would be different -or how we spent our time meanwhile.

We can't change the minds of people who don't want their minds changed. However, as people rarely just believe things -but act on them -and their actions affect each other ....should we be against each other and act against each others beliefs -or respect each others right to be who they now are? No one can possibly be any different than they now are -but we can -and should all be different than we were! "Christians" sometimes push their views on others -but so do all else.
When we do not agree on the basic principles, conflict is inevitable -but until such time as we all agree -whether it be by evolution or the rule of Christ -we can be tolerant of others -respectful of others -seek to minimize our negative effect on others -increase our positive effect -realize that what we may see as positive another may see as negative -and not be belligerent about making them change their views -state your case when appropriate and welcomed -or absolutely necessary.

To disagree is understandable -to be "against" is to declare war. Diplomacy and dialogue are fine -but when they fail, separate -or be prepared for widespread misery. There is only one reality -and it will prove us all wrong. We are newbies in a mind-bogglingly expansive universe -how could it not? Even those who believe the bible is inspired by God could still never expect to know as much as God knows.

We should try to agree peacefully -but be prepared to not agree anytime soon. When peoples' lives are unfairly affected by others, action is sometimes necessary -but if more people just lived their lives as peacefully as possible and stopped stirring up trouble, things would be a whole lot better -and we'd all probably listen a whole lot quicker.

Once again, you are so right in so many ways, Etritonakin. But I would be lying if I said I came here in peace, just to debate and have discussion rather than calling it a fight against Christians. Of course, I hope I can assume it is understood that my "war" is strictly verbal.

This is something I would normally not touch with a ten foot pole. I am an old Treky, I really do believe in the Prime Directive. I generally do not wish to attack others belief systems. But as I've stated here already, I wouldn't even be here if there were no cause for it, it's not that fun. It's actually sort of work. And I certainly would not be attacking Christians if I were not under threat myself, but that is the whole point, Christian beliefs are attacking me.

I am certain that their belief in Hell, and their belief they have the one true God and the answer to all life is the major contributor to our inability for the last 1500 years to evolve beyond our self destructive patterns. For me, there is no question about it.

We don't have time to sit and wait for Christians to give this up. We have maybe a 50 year window here on earth. Something has to happen quick, real quick. This sort of thinking that Christians have is holding us back from making the leaps necessary to get over the hump of real change, drastic change.

If you think about it, this is not all that far out of a statement. In fact, there is scientific proof that our world is under a huge threat due to climate change, a threat whose manifestation could actually wind up causing the human species, along with millions of other species, to go extinct within 100 years. In geologic time, that is a matter of minutes.

For a long time I've just fought the skeptics of climate change, thinking that they were our block. And they are, but over time I began to see that there was an origin as to why they have been so ignorant to the truth of climate change. And it ain't just Exxon-Mobile either. Something very deep rooted is causing our dumb thinking. That something is religion, more specifically it is the Christian religion and even more specifically it is the Christian belief in Hell and its accompanying justification that their God is the God of all who has the right to do this sort of thing. That is dumb thinking, and dumb thinking does nothing but produce more dumb thinking. The last thing we need in this day and age is dumb thinking. So I fight against the dumb thinking. Simple as that.

 

[no-body]

I like everything you said there. I want to make a point about this one:

"There is no future way of thinking that will eventually arrive to save us and the sooner everyone realizes this the more we can live in the right now--which is all there ever will be--and fix the problems. "

I disagree about a part of this, I think there is a way of thinking that will eventually arrive to save us. We just don't know exactly what it is yet. It sure isn't our way of thinking now though, is it?

The way of thinking that will save us is available to all us right now. Thinking that it will eventually come is what makes it not there. After all the future is just a version of now that isn't here yet.

That is why Heaven and Hell are such good ideas to control people. It plays on everyones (un?)natural instinct to think satisfaction will eventually arrive along with fear of the unknown.

 

[Danny Heim]

The way of thinking that will save us is available to all us right now. Thinking that it will eventually come is what makes it not there. After all the future is just a version of now that isn't here yet.

That is why Heaven and Hell are such good ideas to control people. It plays on everyones (un?)natural instinct to think satisfaction will eventually arrive along with fear of the unknown.

I don't think I have any arguments with what you say, especially the heaven and hell part. And as far as a new way of thinking, it needs to happen right in the here and now, and yes, it is available to us right now, we just need to open up to it. Good points.