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Let's talk about Hell

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It matters not whether a belief is widespread or not - what matters is whether it is TRUE or not.
Rev.12v9 says the whole world is deceived (obviously believing the wrong thing) this should give you a % of who is right and who is not. :)

Good point, bottom line, is whether it is TRUE or not. Religious truth or not.

Jesus at Rev. 12v9 does warn us that Satan deceives or misleads the entire world of mankind or inhabited earth including with religious lies.
2nd Cor. 4v4 goes as far as giving Satan the title as god of this world of wickedness.
1st John 5v19 says Christians know that they are of God, but the whole world lies in the power of wickedness, wicked one. Eph. 2vs1-3 mentions in .'times past' or in 'past times' Christians walked according to the course of this world of badness. Wouldn't 'past' show before being informed or warned about Satan?

So Satan is 100% wrong, and Jesus is 100% right.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Ge-henna refers to 'the valley of the Sons of Hinnom.' Correct?

From the "Wiki"... concerning it's origin and what is believed about it -not necessarily what is specifically stated in the bible

Gehenna, gehinnam, or gehinnom (Hebrew: גהנום, גהנם, Greek γέεννα) are terms derived from a geographical site in Jerusalem known as the Valley of Hinnom, one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.
According to parts of the bible, the site was initially where followers of Ba'al and Moloch sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6), the valley later became the common wasteyard for all the refuse of Jerusalem. Here the corpses and ashes of animals and people, as well as wastes and garbage were cast and, according to legend, consumed by a constant fire.[citation needed]
In time it became deemed to be accursed and an image of the place of destruction in Jewish folklore[1][2]. However, Jewish folklore suggests the valley had a 'gate' which led down to a molten lake of fire (see Sheol).
Eventually the Hebrew term Gehinnom[3] became a figurative name for the place of spiritual purification for the wicked dead in Judaism, a site at the greatest possible distance from heaven. According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every shabbath day is excluded from punishment.[4] After this the soul will ascend to Olam Ha-Ba, the world to come, or will be destroyed if it is severely wicked.[5]
Gehenna is cited in the New Testament and in early Christian writing to represent the final place where the wicked will be punished or destroyed after resurrection.
In both Rabbinical Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna as a destination of the wicked is different from Hades, the abode of the dead, and is but loosely analogous to the concept of Hell.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
RE: So what is Luke 16 saying?

First of all, Revelation 1v1 brings to our attention that Revelation is sent signified or in signs. Revelation is written in very-vivid word pictures or visions, showing us in 'signs'.
Signs and symbols that stand for things.

As far as Luke 16 we know according to Matt 13v34 Jesus would only speak in parables or illustrations meaning: story form.

The story of Luke 16 is addressed to the enemy Pharisees.

Please note what Jesus says about the story's rich man:
No where does Jesus say the rich man led a degraded life style.
The fact of the story is the rich man was well dressed and feasted.
Does that make a person fit for eternal flames?

True, the rich man lacked compassion for the beggar but if the situation was reversed would the beggar been compassionate? Did the beggar have a record of fine works with God, or just being a beggar give one holiness? Holy enough to have the divine favor of the bosom position of Abraham? Jesus merely describes a sickly beggar.

Is it logical to conclude sickly beggars receive divine blessings at death while rich people go to flames? Remember begging in itself is not a sign or mark of God's favor.
David wrote [Psalm 37v25] that he had not seen anyone 'righteous' in a beggars position.

If we take Jesus story as literal, isn't the conclusion strange that one can enjoy celestial happiness and still be happy speaking to those suffering in flames? How could the drop of water from your fingertip not be evaporated before reaching the suffer in order for a drop of water could bring relief to the sufferer without you being burned from the hot flames? What relief would a drop bring and how long lasting would be the relief?

Since Jesus was directing his story to the Pharisees evidently it was for the Pharisees.
As a class the Pharisees were like the rich man or rich-man class that just loved money as well as prominence, and religious titles. Jesus said of them at Matt 23vs5-7 that they loved religious titles and enjoyed being viewed by men in prominent places such as meals and in the Synagogues while looking down on others.

So in Jesus story the beggar represents humble persons that the Pharisees despised who repented and became followers of Jesus. Those humble sinners upon repenting were now in a position of divine favor while the Pharisees as a class loose out. They no longer had to 'beg' for spiritual crumbs from the Pharisees.

Jesus was still alive on earth when he gave the story.
Doesn't John 3v13 say No one went to heaven before Jesus died?
So the 'death' in Jesus story can represent a great change.
One can be dead in trespasses and sins and come alive spiritually. -Rom 6v11
As a parable or illustrative 'rich man and beggar' logically would follow through that their deaths were also symbolic in the story.

In order to be Christ's bride [Luke 16v18] one would have to be discharged [divorced] from the Mosaic law. Without release from the Mosaic law the Jews could not, figuratively speaking, become Christ's bride. Rom 7vs 1-6. At Pentecost Christians were dead to the law being released [divorced] from it. Now, not the Pharisees, but Jesus apostles received God's spirit enabling them to become the spiritual seed of Abraham or be in the bosom position of God's favor.

So this Pharisee class was tormented [not tortured] by' fiery judgment messages' from God being proclaimed by Christians. They wanted Jesus disciples to 'cool their tongue' so to speak, by 'watering down' Jesus message so neither they, nor their associates, would feel any discomfort. Like today, the clergy class want a 'let up' about the religious truth about hell being just the common stone-cold grave of dead mankind.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Ge-henna refers to 'the valley of the Sons of Hinnom.' Correct?

Gehenna is the Greek form of the Hebrew Geh Hinnom or Valley of Hinnom.
Used 12 times in the Greek NT sometimes translated as hell or hellfire.

Jesus used Gehenna [not hell] to show utter destruction or annihilation.
Adverse judgment with no resurrection to life as a soul being possible.
Matt 10v28; Luke 12v4,5.
The wicked Pharisees as a class were denounced as subjects fit for Gehenna- Matt 23vs 13-15,33.

As far as the sons of Hinnom:
Apostate King Ahaz -[ 2 Chron 28vs1-3] burned his sons in that fire.
Ahaz grandson Manasseh made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom.[2 Chron 33v1,6,9]
Manasseh's grandson Josiah put an end to that detestable practice- [2Kings 23v10]
 

Danmac

Well-Known Member
I believe I'm in the right spot. I want to talk to Christians about Hell. That is all I wish to talk to you about, though I will not reject to your witnessing at all, besides, that is what I'm doing. Witnessing for the right to evolve. So fire away. But please, I would appreciate it if you could keep this debate to Hell only. Thank you.

It's a question really, one I must ask by making a statement first. Well, a story really. But just to get the idea, Why Hell?

Let's go to Hell for a minute.

I'm Ed and I'm dead; a human on earth who failed to get salvation from Jesus Christ. In the Christian faith one either goes to Heaven or goes to Hell sometime after death. In this case, Ed is going to Hell.

It's Ed's time and God does not see Ed in his book, so Peter throws him into the lake of fire, something like that. I think that is actually pretty much it. Oh except one thing, Ed's there for eternity.

Sot it's hot, actually, Ed is on fire. He has landed on hot rocks and they are scraping his knees and his palms and burning at the same time. In fact his is totally on fire. He is in Hell for sure and he is on literal fire. And it hurts; it is searing pain of boils and burned skin. But he sees that he is not dieing. He is as alive as he was when he was thrown in 40 minutes ago. And he wonders when they will get him, but knows they are never going to come, but he can’t believe it and screams for help.

It's been 124 years. Ed still burns, his pain has never let up for 124 years. His pleas for help still fill the hot flames and brush the flames back into his eyes that burn constantly. He is engulfed in fire. It has now been 84,213 years. Ed screams have grown weird and finally at 700 million years to the day Ed stops screaming for one split second and realizes he is just beginning.

It has now been 41 zillion years times a 1000 zillion years that Ed has burned in Hell. He has another moment and he realizes he may as well have been there for 10 minutes, because this time will repeat again at another 41 zillion times a 1000 zillion years and that will still be just the beginning. And then the beginning starts again....

Get it?
I gotta ask. How’d this idea ever get this far?
We know one thing from reality. There is such thing as torment. Such torment that causes an individual to take his or her own life. I am not talking about physical torment, but mental torment. Such an unbearable degree of mental torment that a person would rather take their own life than endure it. So hell does exist in the natural sense. It exists in the form of mental torment that leads to suicide. The question is, will the torment continue after the soul is separated from the body? I say yea. Maybe that is why there is such a thing as paranormal unrest.
 

Danny Heim

Active Member
This is for, Etritonakin and URAVIP2ME.
I think you guys answered the following question in many ways, but could I please get just a plain old yes or no to it just to make sure?
"And, is it still that one must be "saved"? In other words, pray the sinners prayer and repent/make Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior, or go to hell. "

However, I didn't get any answer to the next following question:
"Tell me someone, or all of you. Is this idea of hell that you guys have been talking about a widespread thing in Christianity today, or are the majority still saying we burn forever? "

In other words, are their more or less people in the present Christian population that believe what you all believe, that is, that Hell is not an eternal torment of fire, but instead has all these other variations you all have stated? Also, maybe you can give me your best guess of the percentage breakdown, i.e. x% believe hell is eternal fire and y% is what you all believe. I’d really appreciate that.

Jollybear or Beta could answer this also, all 4 of you guys seem to have a closely related concept of this.

Thanks

Well, I find it hard to believe, but I guess I'm going to have to conclude that you guys are afraid of answering those questions, because you sure have avoided them, though I can't for the life of me figure out why?? I've ask twice, I'm not going for a third, be relieved. Is it because your beliefs are a minority among Christians? I guess I am going to have to conclude that. Sorry for asking, I think?
 

Danmac

Well-Known Member
Well, I find it hard to believe, but I guess I'm going to have to conclude that you guys are afraid of answering those questions, because you sure have avoided them, though I can't for the life of me figure out why?? Is it because your beliefs are a minority among Christians? I guess I am going to have to conclude that. Sorry for asking, I think?
You and I were answering at the same time. I posted right before your last post.
 

Noaidi

slow walker
If the whole world is deceived how can it be 100 % right ??? :confused::confused::confused:

Beta
There was a comma between '100%' and 'right'. Read it back. I said: "that would make it 100%, right?", not "that would make it 100% right".
 

Danny Heim

Active Member
We know one thing from reality. There is such thing as torment. Such torment that causes an individual to take his or her own life. I am not talking about physical torment, but mental torment. Such an unbearable degree of mental torment that a person would rather take their own life than endure it. So hell does exist in the natural sense. It exists in the form of mental torment that leads to suicide. The question is, will the torment continue after the soul is separated from the body? I say yea. Maybe that is why there is such a thing as paranormal unrest.

Well, you opened a door to my belief. It is something similar to what you said. I think we do go on, here's why. Just a theory mind you, I prefer to not get too tangled in my own beliefs and ideologies. Anyway, I figure there is a little particle inside us, very little, very tiny; smaller than a particle, on par with the light particle. It is who we are; it is in everything...everything. It never dies, it stores our memory, then carries on into another body some where by natural selection, depend on what the soil does with you, or whatever manner you body is disposed of.

Whether or not you wake up in your present state is doubtful. You just wake up in a body of some kind and aligning with some species, maybe human maybe not, not likely…It matters not what you wind up in, YOU, are always there.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Well, I find it hard to believe, but I guess I'm going to have to conclude that you guys are afraid of answering those questions, because you sure have avoided them, though I can't for the life of me figure out why?? I've ask twice, I'm not going for a third, be relieved. Is it because your beliefs are a minority among Christians? I guess I am going to have to conclude that. Sorry for asking, I think?

Yes. Belief that hell is the common stone-cold grave for dead mankind is in the minority, but not among Christians, rather among so-called Christians or Christendom.

Jesus was in hell - Acts 2vs27,31
Jesus slept while in hell - John 11vs11-14
Jesus unconscious until God resurrected Jesus - Ecc 9vs5,10
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
This is for, Etritonakin and URAVIP2ME.
I think you guys answered the following question in many ways, but could I please get just a plain old yes or no to it just to make sure?
"And, is it still that one must be "saved"? In other words, pray the sinners prayer and repent/make Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior, or go to hell. "
However, I didn't get any answer to the next following question:
"Tell me someone, or all of you. Is this idea of hell that you guys have been talking about a widespread thing in Christianity today, or are the majority still saying we burn forever? "
In other words, are their more or less people in the present Christian population that believe what you all believe, that is, that Hell is not an eternal torment of fire, but instead has all these other variations you all have stated? Also, maybe you can give me your best guess of the percentage breakdown, i.e. x% believe hell is eternal fire and y% is what you all believe. I’d really appreciate that.
Jollybear or Beta could answer this also, all 4 of you guys seem to have a closely related concept of this.
Thanks

I think the majority still teach of hell as a place bad people burn forever.
Whether they really think that ???????

The' Pew Reacher Center' does a lot of surveys.

Most people I find are Not aware, whether they believe in a literal hell fire or not are not, aware that those in hell according to Revelation 20vs13,14 shows that all in hell are delivered up out of hell. So if all in hell are delivered up then hell is vacant, void of people, and then emptied-out hell is cast into second death, or people-less hell dies a symbolic death of no returning.
 
No_body

How does someone believing in unicorns STOP us from evolving?

It doesn't

My point exactly, so if it don’t stop this so called “evolution” why try to HELP evolution by dampening a belief in hell? If evolution is true, why does it need your help?

but brainwashing your friends and family to believe a fiction spreads more gullibility

How do you know it’s spreading “gullibility”? Would it not be also gullibility for me to believe in atheism without having all my questions for them answered? Of course it would, this works both ways sir.

out into the public and that will do more harm than any supposed lack of religion.

Really? What harm would believing in a hell do to the public? Give me a simple list in your OWN words please.

You guys are good at quoting scripture but not at answering my philosophical questions.

You guys? How do you know I am good at quoting scripture? Have you heard me quote scripture before? Also how do you know I am not good at answering your philosophical questions? Have you asked me any YET? No, you haven’t, right?

Your ancient philosophy is set in stone and maybe it was once useful to teach people morals, I'll grant you that,

Useful to teach morals? What good is morals in your perspective?

but now it is outdated

So “TRUTH” is that which always get’s UPDATED then? Is that how it is? So anything that is OUTDATED is false? How is that so? TRUTH NEVER needs updating, since it’s perfect already. How do you know that this “ancient philosophy, set in stone” as you call it, is not TRUE? Just because you say it’s “outdated” does not tell me how you know it’s false.

and adds more barbaric behavior than it atones for.

How so? People can have barbaric behavior without Christian philosophy. Actually it all depends on the person, how twisted they are. They can take any “GOOD” or “DECENT” philosophy and twist it to pieces to suit their own agenda and be barbaric and then justify their actions. Just because someone or some people twist scriptures or a philosophy to suit their own agenda does not dampen the philosophy itself. The philosophy or religion whatever it may be must be dealt with on a level of logical argument against it based on the merits of what that religion says.

More abuse, torture and killings have been done in the name of God than you can credit Satan for no matter what you say about man doing it.

At least that shows God to be a God of justice and Satan to be someone to be a who cares anything goes type of creature. But besides that, not EVERYTHING done in the name of God is truly done under God’s DIRECTION. People can USE God for their own selfish agenda, and yes, it happens. That’s why God said “do not use my name in vain”.

Danny_Heim


Primarily it is because it is so stupid.

Stupid because you say so? You’re the authority on what is stupid? How do you know hell is stupid (MY VIEW OF HELL NOW)? Were talking about MY VIEW of hell, which I told you my view. Why is THAT view of hell, stupid? Tell me why my view is stupid.

Stupidity is a retardant to growth. Evolution of a species of the type I am referring to happens on scale. In other words, it is when pretty much all of the species comes into agreement on a concept then they evolve to that concept.

Why is it important that people “evolve” out of believing in hell?

However, note that I am using the term evolve in a loose sort of way, mostly because it seems to fit. But I am not using it scientifically as in Darwin’s theory. I could be saying "raise to a higher consciousness". But the term "evolve" just seems more fitting somehow.

Thank you for that clarification of how you’re using the word evolve.


So, if we have a large percentage of our population believing in something stupid like Hell, and we seem to, then the net result is a stagnated consciousness.

Here is something to ponder, tell me what you think of this: if SO many people believe in hell, do you think THAT many people are stupid? Do you think you’re smarter than MOST people?

Also why is stagnated consciousness bad?

Also how do you know that it’s a stagnated consciousness and not the other way around? How do you know NOT believing in hell is NOT stagnated?

However, from what you, Beta, Etritonakin and URAVIP2ME believe, it sounds like the concept is not as stupid as it has been, and maybe we have a chance to break the mold. that is if your belief is widespread among the Christian community, I hope to get an answer to that.

My view of hell, which I have stated in this thread, is logical, sound, and I believe to be correct. Who cares about other views of hell at the moment, my view of hell is the right one. So, from here on end, it would be best for you to answer me based on what I say about hell and not what others believe about it.

Also even if my view of hell was widespread in Christianity, still why do you think it’s important to get it to that stage in order to eventually get it completely out of the church and public circle? In other words, why do you think my view of hell is wrong? Saying because it’s stupid, says nothing. Because I can shoot back and say your view of there being NO hell, that is stupid.

Your answers?
 

Danny Heim

Active Member
No_body



My point exactly, so if it don’t stop this so called “evolution” why try to HELP evolution by dampening a belief in hell? If evolution is true, why does it need your help?



How do you know it’s spreading “gullibility”? Would it not be also gullibility for me to believe in atheism without having all my questions for them answered? Of course it would, this works both ways sir.



Really? What harm would believing in a hell do to the public? Give me a simple list in your OWN words please.



You guys? How do you know I am good at quoting scripture? Have you heard me quote scripture before? Also how do you know I am not good at answering your philosophical questions? Have you asked me any YET? No, you haven’t, right?



Useful to teach morals? What good is morals in your perspective?



So “TRUTH” is that which always get’s UPDATED then? Is that how it is? So anything that is OUTDATED is false? How is that so? TRUTH NEVER needs updating, since it’s perfect already. How do you know that this “ancient philosophy, set in stone” as you call it, is not TRUE? Just because you say it’s “outdated” does not tell me how you know it’s false.



How so? People can have barbaric behavior without Christian philosophy. Actually it all depends on the person, how twisted they are. They can take any “GOOD” or “DECENT” philosophy and twist it to pieces to suit their own agenda and be barbaric and then justify their actions. Just because someone or some people twist scriptures or a philosophy to suit their own agenda does not dampen the philosophy itself. The philosophy or religion whatever it may be must be dealt with on a level of logical argument against it based on the merits of what that religion says.



At least that shows God to be a God of justice and Satan to be someone to be a who cares anything goes type of creature. But besides that, not EVERYTHING done in the name of God is truly done under God’s DIRECTION. People can USE God for their own selfish agenda, and yes, it happens. That’s why God said “do not use my name in vain”.

Danny_Heim




Stupid because you say so? You’re the authority on what is stupid? How do you know hell is stupid (MY VIEW OF HELL NOW)? Were talking about MY VIEW of hell, which I told you my view. Why is THAT view of hell, stupid? Tell me why my view is stupid.



Why is it important that people “evolve” out of believing in hell?



Thank you for that clarification of how you’re using the word evolve.




Here is something to ponder, tell me what you think of this: if SO many people believe in hell, do you think THAT many people are stupid? Do you think you’re smarter than MOST people?

Also why is stagnated consciousness bad?

Also how do you know that it’s a stagnated consciousness and not the other way around? How do you know NOT believing in hell is NOT stagnated?



My view of hell, which I have stated in this thread, is logical, sound, and I believe to be correct. Who cares about other views of hell at the moment, my view of hell is the right one. So, from here on end, it would be best for you to answer me based on what I say about hell and not what others believe about it.

Also even if my view of hell was widespread in Christianity, still why do you think it’s important to get it to that stage in order to eventually get it completely out of the church and public circle? In other words, why do you think my view of hell is wrong? Saying because it’s stupid, says nothing. Because I can shoot back and say your view of there being NO hell, that is stupid.

Your answers?

I don't recall calling your view stupid, but your post is long and so I'll have to check it out later and get back with you. But just by glance, I think I can see you are taking the word evolve literally, and you are carrying way too far into the future, I am talking about evolving right now in order to handle the crisis’s at hand, not the ultimate nirvana.

night all
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Good point, bottom line, is whether it is TRUE or not. Religious truth or not.

Jesus at Rev. 12v9 does warn us that Satan deceives or misleads the entire world of mankind or inhabited earth including with religious lies.
2nd Cor. 4v4 goes as far as giving Satan the title as god of this world of wickedness.
1st John 5v19 says Christians know that they are of God, but the whole world lies in the power of wickedness, wicked one. Eph. 2vs1-3 mentions in .'times past' or in 'past times' Christians walked according to the course of this world of badness. Wouldn't 'past' show before being informed or warned about Satan?

So Satan is 100% wrong, and Jesus is 100% right.
So glad we agree !
It is essential to get the basics right - if we don't all further reasoning will be out of line. Jesus Christ must be the Truth upon whom we are built. :yes:
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
RE: So what is Luke 16 saying?
........
Please note what Jesus says about the story's rich man:
No where does Jesus say the rich man led a degraded life style.
The fact of the story is the rich man was well dressed and feasted.
Does that make a person fit for eternal flames?

Flames -yes. Obviously, as that's what the story said. Eternal -as in... with no possibility to an end thereof? No.

The fact that he feasted is no sin -but the suggestion is -as the rich man ended up being tormented in flames and the beggar did not -that he did something wrong to deserve such -whereas the beggar did not -and since the fact that one was rich and the other a beggar was specified and important to the story, the implication is that the rich man would not have fed the beggar given the chance. Also refer to....

Luk 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

From my travels and experience, I have found that a beggar would indeed be more likely to share his food with another beggar or even a rich man, than for a rich man to share with a beggar.
 
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Beta

Well-Known Member
Beta
There was a comma between '100%' and 'right'. Read it back. I said: "that would make it 100%, right?", not "that would make it 100% right".
I stand corrected !
Will have to make sure I wear my glasses in future :cool:
 
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